Spain, since 1992.

[Andynonomous]

Number of spanish medals at the Olympics:

-1900: 1
-1904: n/a
-1908: n/a
-1912: n/a
-1920: 2
-1924: 0
-1928: 1
-1932: 1
-1936: n/a
-1948: 1
-1952: 1
-1956: n/a
-1960: 1
-1964: 0
-1968: 0
-1972: 1
-1976: 2
-1980: 6 (Boycotted Olympics, medal numbers inflated)
-1984: 5 (Boycotted Olympics, medal numbers inflated)
-1988: 4


"I know what happened at Barcelona '92 and I'm a Pandora's Box that, if opened one day, could bring down sport,"

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/olympics/summer/2008-11-19-2670320706_x.htm

-1992: 22
-1996: 17
-2000: 11
-2004: 19
-2008: 18


You add in (in 2010 alone)

1) The extremely high level of performance by Spanish athletes of all types against international competition in 2010 (Tour De France, Roland Garros, Wimbledon, U.S Open, World Cup, Triathlon championship, swimming championships,...).

2) How that performance was attained (footballers with extreme endurance, a tennis player who is the fastest, strongest, and has the most endurance ever of any tennis player, a triathlete, who ran away from the competition at the end of one of the most grueling events in sport,

3) Very many Spanish cyclists getting caught doping.

4) Operation greyhound where many Spanish track athletes were caught in a doping ring.

5) Spain having a reputation as easy to get PEDs (ie steroids),

6) World recordholder swimmer in 50m missing 3 out of competition tests (Raphael Munoz),

7) Extreme resistance to out of competition testing by Raphael Nadal (complained numerous times about OOC testing, and has sided with other athletes who miss tests {Malisse, Wickmayer}).



It is EXTREMELY clear to me that :

A) Spain wanted to perform well at Barcelona, so looked the other way as their athletes doped their way to success,

B) The clinics (ie. Fuentes) remained after the Barcelona Olympics, and continued to benefit Spanish athletes.

C) Spain is now one of the dirtiest countries in the world for doping.

D) the Spanish people, and authorities have NO INTEREST in cleaning up the SEVERE corruption in their countries sport.



I know there are those in EXTREME denial who will try to "argue away" the evidence, but the truth is as clear as crystal.

 

[The Hitch]

Great post and i really like that quote from Fuentes' wife, but it should be pointed out that this is not a problem limited to Spain.

Are they the worst at it? Maybe maybe not but obviously there is a lot of doping behind the scenes in Spanish sport and not just cycling.

Wasnt there a quote by someone that as long as its cyclists and athletes we can survive, but if focus shifts to Nadal that basketball player and of course the futbalistas, the problem becomes terminal.

Im getting a strong feeling i read ths somewhere but cant pinpoint where.

Also Lack of olympic medals durig much of that time might be atributed to Franco. Maybe. ANd arent there more medals available these days?

 

[Andynonomous]

Although there certainly are other countries that are dirty as well (USA, Russia, China), Spain's results against INTERNATIONAL COMPETITION has consistently been VERY high for the last 18 years. Although "other countries are doing it too", Spain has clearly been doing it much more, based on the results against other countries.

 

[simo1733]

Great post and i really like that quote from Fuentes' wife, but it should be pointed out that this is not a problem limited to Spain.

Are they the worst at it? Maybe maybe not but obviously there is a lot of doping behind the scenes in Spanish sport and not just cycling.

Wasnt there a quote by someone that as long as its cyclists and athletes we can survive, but if focus shifts to Nadal that basketball player and of course the futbalistas, the problem becomes terminal.

Im getting a strong feeling i read ths somewhere but cant pinpoint where.

Also Lack of olympic medals durig much of that time might be atributed to Franco. Maybe. ANd arent there more medals available these days?

There are cheats in every country and in every sport.I think Spain is a bit different to most though.Its easier to get on a professionally run program and there is less disincentive to dope.We see how Valverde and Contador are defended. Imho if Wiggins was DNA matched to Puerto or tested positive for Clenbuterol and Plastisizer,he would be torn to shreds in the media.British Cycling would probably lose its funding and Brailsford would retire from the sport.( After the Olympics)

 

[la.margna]

I think it is unfair to accuse one nation in particular for doping. we all know that there were also specialised organisations and doctors doing the dirty work in many different countries (Italy, Austria, Belgium, Switzerland, US, ...). Of course, Fuentes also looked after the top Spanish soccer/football teams and took care of the national team. But it is well known, that also other players or teams went well prepared into some world championships.

However, if there is something really annoying and scandalous about Spain, it is the fact that authorities have closed their eyes until a few years ago and everything was possible in Spain. No wonder that cheatmasters like Lance, Tyler, Floyd, ... all lived in Spain. The even bigger shame in Spain is that sports & cycling unions/federations have been doing their best to clear and support their cheating heros.

 

[python]

to my memory this is yet another stupid thread about the same subject singling out a country. time to wonder who's that newbie with only 2 posts and a stale agenda.

stupid thread, inflammatory content, useless...

 

[ultimobici]

There are cheats in every country and in every sport.I think Spain is a bit different to most though.Its easier to get on a professionally run program and there is less disincentive to dope.We see how Valverde and Contador are defended. Imho if Wiggins was DNA matched to Puerto or tested positive for Clenbuterol and Plastisizer,he would be torn to shreds in the media.British Cycling would probably lose its funding and Brailsford would retire from the sport.( After the Olympics)

What happened to Linford Christie when he was caught? SFA.

 

[hrotha]

Of course Spain set up a state doping program leading to Barcelona 92, but there are several things you're failing to take into account. First of all, do you think Spain's results in previous Olympic Games were normal for a country with a relatively big population and a solid sports tradition? Seems to me like what Spain did was catching up to what other countries were doing, and not only in regards to doping, but also in regards to planification, training, state grants for athletes and the like.
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programa_ADO

footballers with extreme endurance

Did you see Spain's games in the last World Cup? They showed an alarming lack of endurance in several games. I suggest you watch Spain-Honduras for a glaring example.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Here's another thought.

You know what happened between 1988 and 1992? The Cold War ended. East German, Soviet, Czechoslovak and Yugoslavian athletes were suddenly no longer being supported to the same level by state-sponsored doping programs. The NATO countries, the US in particular, may have stepped down their programs too. This would allow other countries to be competitive in events that had previously been dominated by US and Eastern Bloc countries. Spain may have stepped up their doping in order to give a good showing when they hosted the Games, but it's not just a stepping up from no program to a full program kind of situation. There are more factors than that.

 

[The Hitch]

Did you see Spain's games in the last World Cup? They showed an alarming lack of endurance in several games. I suggest you watch Spain-Honduras for a glaring example.

Most of the team had been playing with the exception of a 3 week break for 10 months straight. And as the tournament progressed they didnt show a lack of endurance in my opinion. They were the last team to start so had a smaller gap between games than any of their opponents. As some have pointed out before, the usual behaviour of athletes without dope in extra time of a football match, especially when they dominate like Spain in that final, is to be falling over onseself in exhaustion. Especially after 10 months of high level sport.

And remember that the games all took place at altitude which tired out most teams a lot more than usual.

to my memory this is yet another stupid thread about the same subject singling out a country. time to wonder who's that newbie with only 2 posts and a stale agenda.

stupid thread, inflammatory content, useless...

But this is the clinic and there is nothing out of the ordinary about new threads regarding the same subject. For every one thread about Spain doping, there are about 50 threads started by the Hog about what lance said on twitter yesterday.

 

[simo1733]

What happened to Linford Christie when he was caught? SFA.

This is true no doubt but things have moved on a bit since then .A better example is Duane Chambers,even if he has served his time and admitted his mistakes he is primarily seen as a cheat.Although he is back in the GB team his team mates refused to run relay with him.I don't think Valv Piti or Clentador will face any such issues.

 

[Fester]

It'll be interesting to see if similar conclusions can be drawn in 2012.

 

[hrotha]

Most of the team had been playing with the exception of a 3 week break for 10 months straight. And as the tournament progressed they didnt show a lack of endurance in my opinion. They were the last team to start so had a smaller gap between games than any of their opponents. As some have pointed out before, the usual behaviour of athletes without dope in extra time of a football match, especially when they dominate like Spain in that final, is to be falling over onseself in exhaustion. Especially after 10 months of high level sport.

And remember that the games all took place at altitude which tired out most teams a lot more than usual.

Everything is relative. I'm not saying Spain was clean because I think doping is widespread in football, I'm saying I see no basis to claim Spain doped more than other teams or got any advantage from it (in a team sport, the whole good vs bad responders gets diluted and everything tends towards an average in that regard). Players from other teams had every bit a hard season as the Spanish, and their performance remained every bit as stable throughout the tournament and individual games. I saw a Spanish team that was relatively weak from a physical point of view compared to their rivals. This is not something I've come up with after the fact to rationalize things, by the way - I was *****ing and being pessimistic about their apparent lack of fitness right after the end of the first game. When you compare Spain's physical prowess to, say, Japan's, there's little else to say.

Although he is back in the GB team his team mates refused to run relay with him.I don't think Valv Piti or Clentador will face any such issues.

That's an unfair comparison to make. Cycling and athletics have different cultures. It's better to talk about the response of Spanish athletes to Galgo and then remember Millar is happily speaking on behalf of clean riders everywere (apparently).

 

[The Hitch]

Everything is relative. I'm not saying Spain was clean because I think doping is widespread in football, I'm saying I see no basis to claim Spain doped more than other teams or got any advantage from it (in a team sport, the whole good vs bad responders gets diluted and everything tends towards an average in that regard). Players from other teams had every bit a hard season as the Spanish, and their performance remained every bit as stable throughout the tournament and individual games. I saw a Spanish team that was relatively weak from a physical point of view compared to their rivals. This is not something I've come up with after the fact to rationalize things, by the way -

Now i am the first person to defend spain from the charge that only they were doping. I see no reason to believe they were doing it more than others. But their team did play more than others during the season because half the team came from Barcelona which played more matches than most and moreover using the same team for every match.

I dont think they showed any more a lack of endurance than other teams, and even if they did it wouldnt mean they werent doping. I wouldnt cite Italies awful performance as proof that they werent doping either. Football wise i have as much reason to suspect them of doping as Spain.

 

[Señor_Contador]

[...]Although "other countries are doing it too", Spain has clearly been doing it much more, based on the results against other countries.

And how do you account for this statement?

Let me ask you something here... where are you from?

 

[Andynonomous]

to my memory this is yet another stupid thread about the same subject singling out a country. time to wonder who's that newbie with only 2 posts and a stale agenda.

stupid thread, inflammatory content, useless...

I may be a newb here, but I have been observing the OBVIOUS cheating by Spanish athletes in tennis for many years.

1) Rafael Nadal.
- Vociforously opposed to out of competition testing.
- Has wide ranging performance changes in conjunction apparent build changes (2008, 2010 his "bulkiest" years are also his best performing years).
- Has a significant improvement in serve speed mid-career (speed changes dramatically week to week as well, peaking for the most prestigous tournaments). The vast majority of players don't have significant improvement to their strokes mid-career.
- Supports others who have failed OOC tests (Gasquet), and do not meet OOC reporting requirements (Wickmayer, Mallise).
- In spite of a VERY weak testing regime , he claims there is NO doping in tennis (ie. "no need to test us at all").
- Is rumoured to have been a client of Fuentes.
- Is the strongest, fastest, and highest endurance tennis player ever in the history of the game (in spite of having one of the most grueling styles of play, he has never been seen to even breathe hard - his endurance is much like Lance in the Pyrenees, the tougher it is, the faster he goes).
- Is now involved with a doctor (Sanchez) who has apparently cured Nadal's incurable knee condition (tendonitis) using a procedure (PRP) that has been no more effective than a placebo in tests outside of Spain (giving the appearance that it is no more than a ruse to give the athlete a medical exemption, then administer PEDs).
- Has been caught numerous times cheating in other ways (using medical timeouts for strategic purposes, taking too much time between points, on-court coaching).
- Clearly believes that he is above the game (much like LA). Threatened a chair umpire for doing his job at Wimbledon 2010 and vigorously lobbies against the rules.
- Complains about the damage to sports when athletes get caught doping, rather than complains about athletes cheating in the first place.
- Has unprecedented success with a defensive style game (normal for a "defensive specialist" is to be at the top of their game for 1 to 4 years, before they "burn out" - see Jim Courier, Michael Chang, Bjorn Borg). Nadal has been in the top three in the world for 5 1/2 years and counting.
- Since May 2010 has won 100% of the grand slams (most prestigous tournaments), but only 14% of the non-grand slams (as though he was "cycling up" for the biggest tournaments).
- Had a great year in 2008, then when a new testing regime was introduced in 2009 his performance dropped off dramatically. This is the year he complained the loudest about the new testing regime. His performance in 2010 was even higher than it was in 2008 (the new testing regime introduced in 2009 is no more stringent than the regime it replaced).

2) Fernando Verdasco -
- Mid-career, he took on a new "fitness coach" (Gil Reyes) in late 2008, and a few weeks later, showed up with a new "buff" body. His performance improved at the same time.
- Reyes did the exact same thing for Andre Agassi, who showed up late career in a new "buff" body. Agassi won most of his Grand slams AFTER his 29th birthday. This is unheard of in tennis where most players peak out before the age of 25.

3) David Ferrer -
- Next to Nadal, has the most endurance of any player in the game (has a "defensive" style which requires much more running than his opponent).
- Is rumoured to be on Fuentes list.

4) Juan Carlos Fererro -
- Is rumoured to be on Fuentes list.


In my opinion, there is NO ATHLETE IN ANY SPORT, ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD THAT IS A MORE OBVIOUS DRUG-CHEAT (other than Lance Armstrong) than RAFAEL NADAL (excluding those who have already been caught) .

I have been following the goings on in Spanish sport since 2005 when Nadal broke on the scene. Spain HAS had much more suspicious activity, than most other nations. If the performance in 2010 by Spanish athletes is not a wake up call, then you are in EXTREME denial.

Every "accomplishment" by a Spanish athlete since 1992 IS tarnished in my opinion.

 

[Andynonomous]

And how do you account for this statement?

Let me ask you something here... where are you from?

Why do you want to know ?

Actually, I already know the answer, so you can point out the PED activity in my home country's sports.

As I expected, you about to use the "they all do it" excuse.

They do "all do it", but to differing degrees. Spain IS up there with the US, Russia, and China.


Here is some of the other excuses you are about to use

- You can't prove it in a court of law.
- You are just jealous.
- They have never tested positive.
- Innocent until proven guilty.
- You are stupid.
- You are crazy.


I know because I have already gone through this in the tennis forums. The denial, and Omerta there is even stronger (because no-one ever gets caught) than it is here.

 

[Tuarts]

This may be off topic but I found something on twitter posted by a Spanish sprinter (whose already been indicted before):

Primer dia sin humo!!!!! Felicidades a todos los que no fumamos!!!! Y a los que fuman tambien, al final lo agradecerán.

Which translated:

First day smoke free !!!!! Congratulations to all who do not smoke!! And those who also smoke at the end thank you.

I'm amazed someone who is now back in the Pro peloton can be a smoker. Is that even possible?

 

[sublimit]

What happened to Linford Christie when he was caught? SFA.

Banned from coaching at the Olympics for Britain having retired from running after the positive.

 

[Señor_Contador]

Case proven.

Lock up Rafael Nadal and throw away the key.

IF ONLY people like you were put in a similar situation...

Kinda reminds me of Christopher Hitchens and his continuous opposition to acknowledge waterboarding as torture... only to change his mind, in a couple of seconds mind you, when he was waterboarded himself.

 

[luckyboy]

Banned from coaching at the Olympics for Britain having retired from running after the positive.

He is a mentor though, apparently.

"However in April 2006 it was announced that Christie would be a senior mentor for athletes on the national team, along with former athletes Steve Backley, Daley Thompson and Katharine Merry."

He got banned for 2 years for nandrolone didn't he? Although he escaped a ban for pseudoephedrine in 1988.

 

[sniper]

Why do you want to know ?

Actually, I already know the answer, so you can point out the PED activity in my home country's sports.

As I expected, you about to use the "they all do it" excuse.

They do "all do it", but to differing degrees. Spain IS up there with the US, Russia, and China.


Here is some of the other excuses you are about to use

- You can't prove it in a court of law.
- You are just jealous.
- They have never tested positive.
- Innocent until proven guilty.
- You are stupid.
- You are crazy.


I know because I have already gone through this in the tennis forums. The denial, and Omerta there is even stronger (because no-one ever gets caught) than it is here.

+1
This is indeed the canonical set of arguments Spanish media and average (don't wanna overgeneralize) sportsfan use to counter and play down doping accusations against Spanish athletes.
I'm not saying these arguments aren't legitimate (they may or may not be, to different extents). I'm just saying they don't help to restore the trust and confidence, and really do nothing to improve the tarnished reputation of Spanish sports. Quite the contrary.

 

[Waterloo Sunrise]

What happened to Linford Christie when he was caught? SFA.

Come off it - he was banned from coaching for a while and treated like a pariah.

When Chambers returned from his ban it took 3 years before the BBC could interview him without casual viewers wondering who he had murdered.

 

[sublimit]

He is a mentor though, apparently.

"However in April 2006 it was announced that Christie would be a senior mentor for athletes on the national team, along with former athletes Steve Backley, Daley Thompson and Katharine Merry."

He got banned for 2 years for nandrolone didn't he? Although he escaped a ban for pseudoephedrine in 1988.

Yes banned for Nandrolone, Katherine Merry, Darren Campbell stuck up for him and still stand by him which is kind of sad. Hypocrites of the highest order after what happened with Dwayne Chambers.

Apparently he took ginseng but pseudoephedrine I'm not sure. Perhaps its the same thing i dont know.

 

[Francois the Postman]

This thread has been brought to our attention. I have very few problems with people speculating about how much of the the sports results of a particular country are tainted by drug use. Well argued it could make a fascinating thread. Multiple threads even, as drugs in sport aren't unique to Spain. Far far from it.

But to be very clear: what won't be tolerated is nation-bashing for the sake of nation bashing.

So comments like these...

Although "other countries are doing it too", Spain has clearly been doing it much more, based on the results against other countries.

.... are skirting a very very fine line. If anyone wants to make further claims like these in threads that single out a single nation, you'd better have some hard evidence before making wild and unsubstantiated "clearly much more" claims like that.

Otherwise I will judge it to be nation bashing for the sake of doing so. Which is the sort of trolling that we don't tolerate.

And no, that original post doesn't come anywhere near offering facts that bridge the gap between unsubstantiated hunch and the rather wild accusation made in the quote that singles out a single nation. Drugs in sport, and drug scandals at top level, has a pretty well stamped international passport.

It is anyone's guess who does exactly how much and how often. The more exact your statements, the more exact your argument will have to be. Otherwise I will judge it to be exactly the sort of nation bashing that we won't tolerate.

Feel free to have an interesting discussion. Think before hitting the submit button if you have something to say about what "a nation clearly does".

Carry on, and keep it interesting (only).