Stage 18 Pinerolo-Galibier

[SirLes]

So today's stage. Evidence of a cleaner peloton or a doped up performance a la Landis in 2006. The issue has been aluded to in the main thread but cannot be discussed.

Interested in people's views

 

[roundabout]

Difficult to tell. I remember there was an argument that Landis didn't do anything particularly outlandish based on his wattage from the stage. Can't recall whether it was before or after the positive.

 

[bigloco]

since i'm all fired up with the great stage and working on doubling my post count, I'm going to say cleaner.




Main evidence: Alberto! he cracked!

Also the fastest time up was frank with:

Power / kg : 5.7 Watt / kg

Seems lower than usual for a big stage so soon after the second rest day.

 

[luckyboy]

Doped riders chasing a doped rider.

 

[Benotti69]

well why dont you outline Landis's stage 17 win in 2006 and then point out the similarities?

Floyd Landis put himself back in contention by winning the stage after a 120 km solo breakaway attack

I dont see a direct correlation between the 2. Landis was riding well in the 06 Tdf and had one bad day and bounced back the following day with a long break. A Schleck has been having an ok to not so good 11TdF and had a really good day today.

 

[Parrulo]

since i'm all fired up with the great stage and working on doubling my post count, I'm going to say cleaner.




Main evidence: Alberto! he cracked!

Also the fastest time up was frank with:

Power / kg : 5.7 Watt / kg

Seems lower than usual for a big stage so soon after the second rest day.

how is that the main evidence?

i don't think this stage resembled landis stage at all. this was very nicely played tactically and the contenders indecision about when to start chasing helped it. also contador finally suffering from the giro and his knee made it a lot easier to happen.

if contador was at a good level he and evans would have caught andy who cracked completely in the last k, which is something landis never did over 120k. . .

 

[SirLes]

The Landis example was just that, an example of a doped up performance. I used it primarily because there can be no doubt he was doped but also it was an example of a surprise attack by a contender from a long way from the finish.

The purpose of the thread is not to discuss similarities or differences between the two examples but whether the way the stage was played out is indicative of a cleaner peloton or doped.

One could of course state that it tells us nothing, both explanations are equally likely given what happened.

 

[roundabout]

Difficult to tell. I remember there was an argument that Landis didn't do anything particularly outlandish based on his wattage from the stage. Can't recall whether it was before or after the positive.

Of course I wonder what effect getting 338 or so sticky bottles from his car along the way had on his power numbers

 

[MarkvW]

So today's stage. Evidence of a cleaner peloton or a doped up performance a la Landis in 2006. The issue has been aluded to in the main thread but cannot be discussed.

Interested in people's views

Seems cleaner. Andy couldn't blow anything up with only Evans driving the chase. Nobody fought with Evans. Contador lost time.

The peloton can really be a bunch of sheep in the face of a daring attack.

 

[BYOP88]

I think the Schlecks used the old Jedi mind trick on the rest of the peloton. As for the stage, 1 doper beat off another bunch of dopers, period!

 

[bigloco]

how is that the main evidence?

i don't think this stage resembled landis stage at all. this was very nicely played tactically and the contenders indecision about when to start chasing helped it. also contador finally suffering from the giro and his knee made it a lot easier to happen.

if contador was at a good level he and evans would have caught andy who cracked completely in the last k, which is something landis never did over 120k. . .

I would have thought if Contador was really doing the stuff ala 2009 with Astana, he wouldn't have cracked like that.

I gained more respect for Contador today than I ever thought I'd have.

 

[SarahDane]

I think Alberto is clean, on top of his beef incident, a revelation of him doping would throw his reputation completely out of the window.

 

[Escarabajo]

Using Frank Schleck's wattage as an example would be wrong because he was drafting the whole stage. Just saying.

Use Andy Schleck on the second climb or Cadel Evans & Andy Scleck on the Galibier. They would be a better measure.

 

[Mister Crud]

Today at the Galibier Contador (and Sanches) showed the cost of his efforts to gain time in the previous 2 stages.
He hasn't recovered. And he won't recover for tomorrow's Alpe d'Huez either.
Thus, a Cleaner than Ever Tour.
Who was it that said a clean Tour wouldn't be any fun to watch?

 

[skippythepinhead]

I would have thought if Contador was really doing the stuff ala 2009 with Astana, he wouldn't have cracked like that.

I gained more respect for Contador today than I ever thought I'd have.

Can you explain how you gained respect for Contador today? I don't want to assume. Clarification: my assumption is that your respect emanates from the realization that without dope he is just another upper tier wheelsucking clod like Lance Armstrong would have been. (So you see why I don't want to assume.)

 

[bigloco]

Can you explain how you gained respect for Contador today? I don't want to assume. Clarification: my assumption is that your respect emanates from the realization that without dope he is just another upper tier wheelsucking clod like Lance Armstrong would have been. (So you see why I don't want to assume.)

I have really despised Contador. I don't know why. Its not a Spanish thing as Indurain is probably my fave ever.

Maybe its that, not unlike Armstrong, he has the edge. He's able to get away with things that others aren't....OP...Clen...beating freakin Canc in the ITT in 2009. I think he's more like Armstrong than not. And I really really don't want another Armstrong.

And today, at least, he showed me that maybe he's not on some super-product that will allow him to pull off the giro-tour double...an accomplishment that Armstrong himself said was close to impossible.

So I feel differently about him today. Maybe for the first time I can empathize, hell, i don't know.

Now watch him blow up Canc on the ITT and win it by 5 min and take the yellow

Lastly, without dope, I think Contador is the most talented rider in the peloton and not some wheel sucker!

 

[MrRoboto]

Also...Actually doing both the Giro and the Tour being the defending champion deserves some respect. Either you have really big balls, or you aren't afraid of failing. Probably both.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

well why dont you outline Landis's stage 17 win in 2006 and then point out the similarities?

Floyd Landis put himself back in contention by winning the stage after a 120 km solo breakaway attack

I dont see a direct correlation between the 2. Landis was riding well in the 06 Tdf and had one bad day and bounced back the following day with a long break. A Schleck has been having an ok to not so good 11TdF and had a really good day today.

Landis also won by nearly three times as much (5'42" over Sastre as opposed to 2'07" over Fränk). And didn't have as much of an advantage in the way of team tactics (people not wanting to carry Fränk to the climb, looking at Alberto before he cracked).

 

[OneRaceWonder]

I would have thought if Contador was really doing the stuff ala 2009 with Astana, he wouldn't have cracked like that.

I gained more respect for Contador today than I ever thought I'd have.

So a rider gains your respect when it becomes pretty clear that he's been doping earlier, but maybe not anymore? I just don't see the logic in that. What about riders that have never doped?

Today was such a beautiful exampel of how juiced up AC has been before.

 

[luckyboy]

Today was such a beautiful exampel of how juiced up AC has been before.

lol ........

 

[BYOP88]

So a rider gains your respect when it becomes pretty clear that he's been doping earlier, but maybe not anymore? I just don't see the logic in that. What about riders that have never doped?

Today was such a beautiful exampel of how juiced up AC has been before.

Isn't it also a great example of how "juiced" Andy is?

 

[Epicycle]

well why dont you outline Landis's stage 17 win in 2006 and then point out the similarities?

Floyd Landis put himself back in contention by winning the stage after a 120 km solo breakaway attack

I dont see a direct correlation between the 2. Landis was riding well in the 06 Tdf and had one bad day and bounced back the following day with a long break. A Schleck has been having an ok to not so good 11TdF and had a really good day today.

Yeah Landis went from farther out, over two cat 1's, a cat 2 and an HC and he went solo. He had very little help even when he caught the break and wound up towing Sinkewitz, who wasn't going to work with him because he was on T-Mob and his teammate Kloden was chasing. Andy had a lot more help today with Monfort and Devenyns.

I compare Landis to Basso, who had "stomach problems" in the 2005 Giro on the Stelvio but came back to win two stages. I always figured Basso had his jour sans because of a screw up in his doping program and the same thing may have happened to Landis.

I'm sure the Schlecks are getting away with whatever they can refill-wise but today didn't really look like Landis to me.

 

[skippythepinhead]

Also...Actually doing both the Giro and the Tour being the defending champion deserves some respect. Either you have really big balls, or you aren't afraid of failing. Probably both.

I can see the points of the first post--while I don't agree with everything, I do see how it's possible to like Contador more after today. However, I take exception to the above point as I see it as equally plausible that Contador was dedicated to the Giro because he had no idea whether or not he'd be racing in the Tour. If today's stage made you like him more, you're really going to be hooked if his results are properly nullified.

 

[thehog]

Evans is already calling it doping based on his numbers.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/evans-surprised-with-tour-de-france-rivals-tactics

"They put it all on the line, and they really had to with a long-range attack there," Evans said of Leopard Trek, who placed two riders, Maxime Monfort and Joost Posthuma into the early breakaway so they could be present to help Schleck on his voyage through the valley between the Izoard and the final climb up the Galibier.

In ideal world, Schleck's attack should never have gained as much as the more than two-minute gap he enjoyed at the top. Evans described the obstacle the slight Luxembourger faced, even with help from the remnants of the breakaway.

"On a numbers basis, [it was] 20-30km of block headwind [in the] upper valley... we're 40 and they're four riding at the front, with one to nine guys riding behind. They rode incredibly fast in front, I don't quite understand how they made so much time."

 

[T_S_A_R]

Evans is already calling it doping based on his numbers.

"On a numbers basis, [it was] 20-30km of block headwind [in the] upper valley... we're 40 and they're four riding at the front, with one to nine guys riding behind. They rode incredibly fast in front, I don't quite understand how they made so much time."

they made so much time because the only people chasing on the flat section were brent bookwalter, dani navarro and two members of the great euskaltel time trialing squad.

rigobert uran crashed on the izoard descent and got back into the group no problem

they made so much time because cadel had a wee strop at the bottom of the penultimate climb shouting at voeckler and rollain to do some chasing.