State of Peloton 2023

[Rob5091]

conspiracy theory? The dog had Covid that attacked Remco!
Seriously, if you've followed pro-cycling for any length of time, then whatever is put out into the public space by teams is taken with a very large pinch of salt.

 

[BR2]

conspiracy theory? The dog had Covid that attacked Remco!
Seriously, if you've followed pro-cycling for any length of time, then whatever is put out into the public space by teams is taken with a very large pinch of salt.

And rightly so, because it's clear they tell a lot of bs. Riders taken out of a GT for "reasons" when it was planned from the beginning is not unheard of... But in this case Remco was so visibly sick, there's no reason to doubt that.

 

[Rob5091]

Here's a another take for The Delgados to ponder on, in Joe Parkin's book he writes that not doping would be seen by "team managers, teammates, friends and fans as a failure to give 100% as a cyclist". It's all part of being a pro-cyclist.

 

[Lequack]

From the man himself

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1659879219722059776

View: https://twitter.com/GcnRacing/status/1659879219722059776

 

[Samu Cuenca]

From the man himself

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1659879219722059776

View: https://twitter.com/GcnRacing/status/1659879219722059776

It's a cheap shot, considering those guys didn't do anything that Thomas hasn't done or wouldn't have done if it had still been possible to get away with today.

 

[Rob5091]

Re: G video - dumb quetion - of course the race leader would not want to ride. The people to ask were the other teams who prefered to protect their GC standings rather then risk anything.

 

[noob]

View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=m6AmCmBTIHc
Horner response.

Basically they're both breaking omerta and a journalist should take their chance to ask the questions needed: "Do you think it's impossible to handle a full GT in bad conditions without doping?".

As someone with a journalist degree I get so frustrated watching this lol. It's a missed opportunity. Because it's a logical fallacy to just be "they doped so they have no say". It's just shifting blame from them both. So immature

 

[Red Rick]

It's a cheap shot, considering those guys didn't do anything that Thomas hasn't done or wouldn't have done if it had still been possible to get away with today.

You can be honest about it and just not *** that hard.

 

[Mayomaniac]

View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=m6AmCmBTIHc
Horner response.

Basically they're both breaking omerta and a journalist should take their chance to ask the questions needed: "Do you think it's impossible to handle a full GT in bad conditions without doping?".

As someone with a journalist degree I get so frustrated watching this lol. It's a missed opportunity. Because it's a logical fallacy to just be "they doped so they have no say". It's just shifting blame from them both. So immature

I mean, he got interviewed by the fanboys from GCN- Grenadiers Cyling Network...

 

[noob]

I mean, he got interviewed by the fanboys from GCN- Grenadiers Cyling Network...

True. Not journalists, just fanboys 🤐

 

[Scarponi]

This Giro has been a waste of good gear tbh

 

[zlev11]

View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=m6AmCmBTIHc
Horner response.

Basically they're both breaking omerta and a journalist should take their chance to ask the questions needed: "Do you think it's impossible to handle a full GT in bad conditions without doping?".

As someone with a journalist degree I get so frustrated watching this lol. It's a missed opportunity. Because it's a logical fallacy to just be "they doped so they have no say". It's just shifting blame from them both. So immature

big respect to Horner actually. nobody has called Thomas out on that besides him.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

I don't hold high hopes for this Giro. We need some clinical performances by Teddy and the Skeleton to get this section going again. Bring on the Tour!

 

[Rob5091]

I don't hold high hopes for this Giro. We need some clinical performances by Teddy and the Skeleton to get this section going again. Bring on the Tour!

We might still be in for some "Foliforov" type action on stage 20.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

We might still be in for some "Foliforov" type action on stage 20.

Obviously there could be some crazy VAM numbers there (due to steepness and the stage being a TT) but I think the race will be virtually decided by then and no PDBF 2.0.

 

[the delgados]

Here's a another take for The Delgados to ponder on, in Joe Parkin's book he writes that not doping would be seen by "team managers, teammates, friends and fans as a failure to give 100% as a cyclist". It's all part of being a pro-cyclist.

Rob5091: I read Joe Parkin's book about racing in Belgium. That does not come as a surprise.
I've already said that I believe it is abundantly apparent that doping in cycling is a given. I get it.
I was drawn into the sport thinking these guys were super heroes on a bike. I was disabused of that notion a long time ago.
I want to like the sport, but I'm drawn to the likes of those who think it's all on the up and up and those who challenge others to "prove it." Prove that riders still dope today, compared to the times there was evidence.
There wasn't any evidence when it came to the likes of exposing Armstrong. It was a commonly held belief that took a long time to surface. Lots of dominos had to fall to bring down Armstrong, and evidence had nothing to do with it.
Seems to me that those who try to shut down the narrative are contrarians by nature, or are paid to throw a spanner in the works. I have no idea if I'm correct, but the idea alone is more interesting to me than watching a lovely spectacle.
That is how jaded I've become.

 

[Rob5091]

"Seems to me that those who try to shut down the narrative are contrarians by nature, or are paid to throw a spanner in the works."
Think of all the fans Armstrong had before he went on Oprah, not to mention the sponsor's money, the foundation, the cycling organizations's reputations and all the others with a vested interest in keeping the story going. It took a long time and some ruined careers to finally get the truth to the public. Evidence came from the riders Armstrong had f**ked over.
It's not anything unique to pro-cycling, just look at the financial world with Ponzi schemes, Wework, CDS, Theranos etc etc. The old X-files motto of "I want to believe" has not gone out of date.

 

[argyllflyer]

Super human extra terrestral ski jumper

 

[the delgados]

"Seems to me that those who try to shut down the narrative are contrarians by nature, or are paid to throw a spanner in the works."
Think of all the fans Armstrong had before he went on Oprah, not to mention the sponsor's money, the foundation, the cycling organizations's reputations and all the others with a vested interest in keeping the story going. It took a long time and some ruined careers to finally get the truth to the public. Evidence came from the riders Armstrong had f**ked over.
It's not anything unique to pro-cycling, just look at the financial world with Ponzi schemes, Wework, CDS, Theranos etc etc. The old X-files motto of "I want to believe" has not gone out of date.

Evidence came from the riders Armstrong *** over.
True that.
I'm curious to know how everything changed with regard to doping in cycling. Back in the day, cyclingnews was the go-to place for talking about doping in cycling. It was a beehive of activity that included contributions from insiders in the sport. I cannot overstate how interesting this forum used to be.
That changed, and I understand why. It's not good for business, and I have no doubt that advertisers and team directors/sponsors etc. played a role in relegating the Clinic to the bottom of the totem pole. In a relatively short period of time, the Clinic went from a go-to place to a no-go place. People who clearly knew what they were talking about were dispatched and replaced by intelligent contributor(s) who implied that the 'nay-sayers' were stupid and had no idea what they were talking about. "Prove it, dummy!"
I use cyclingnews as a small example of how the narrative changed overnight. Suddenly the conversation shifted and doping talk was taboo.
I'd love to know how that happened.
Most professional sports have unions that negotiate collective agreements which include a wink-wink drug testing policy. In short, both sides get that PEDs are here to stay, but they create the impression that doping is bad, when in fact an athlete would have to be *** to get caught. That's how easy the anti-doping policies are easy to navigate and get by without causing a stink.
You would never see, say, an NFL player call out a teammate for doping, but that's what happened to Armstrong. Reason being is there were no protections in place to cover both riders and sponsors.
Riders still do not have a legally binding union, but they act the same as those who do.
Why?

 

[Rob5091]

‘People wanted to believe the fairytale’ - even so called smart guys fell for it - https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/may/30/elizabeth-holmes-enters-prison-11-year-sentence
“elaborate, years-long fraud”, sound familiar? "risked being sued if they spoke out."
Which brings me to - "Suddenly the conversation shifted and doping talk was taboo." We have not had a big bust for a while yet (sure Bahrain & Arkea got raided but no repercussions & Nairo got done for Tramadol) so what's known outside of the peloton is down to guesswork and titbits of information. I don't think that it's taboo (apart from on Eurosport) as such, more like there's nothing new to report. From what I gather, substances that are not on WADA's list are being used and therefore not illegal, or no tests exist to expose methods for illegal substances. It's full steam ahead (or "full gas" as a certain rider says) until WADA can catch up.

 

[the delgados]

I agree that my choice of words were clumsy. Doping talk never officially became taboo; it was a gradual process that did not happen overnight.
Sure, we can all say so-and-so is doped. No one is stopping anyone from doing so. But you correctly point out that there have been no big busts in a long time, which makes it easier for people to ridicule people like me. "Prove it, dummy!"
Who says 'Prove It" if they have no stake in the game? Why would anyone care that some yobbo suggests that the entire peloton is doped?
Back in the day there was a frequent contributor called House, I believe. (Please correct me if I'm wrong.) The guy would come to the Clinic and would go on and on claiming Armstrong was innocent. This despite the overwhelming amount of circumstantial evidence provided here by people who knew what they were talking about. He was an object of ridicule, and no matter how many times people made fun of him and presented him with obviously convincing circumstantial evidence, the guy would not back down.
It didn't take long for people to strongly suspect this poor *** was getting paid to support Armstrong and quell the tide, so to speak. Obviously that was a really stupid thing to do on a forum populated by insiders. But why would he keep coming back without some form of incentive? It was masochistic.
Now we have the opposite: Members/moderators, etc. who quell the argument by either excising members or saying they are in cognitive decline. Problem solved.
I totally understand how the argument gets stale when there's nothing to talk about.
I'm just curious how that happened.

 

[Rob5091]

You do know there are people who think the Earth is flat? Also cognitive dissonance is not restricted to UFO cults. I think you'll see that when the next big bust comes along, the clinic will burst again with posters.

 

[Rob5091]

Berberine in the peloton? Unlikely, but it's cheap ...
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/...ts-alarmed-viral-TikTok-weight-loss-drug.html

 

[the delgados]

I have a hard time imagining another big bust occurring.
Of course, if it does, we will go through the whole rigmarole again. The same narrative has been repeated time and time again. Problem discovered, proper steps taken to prevent repetition, etc. etc. and so on and so forth and more of the same.
I get it.
But you will never see that happening in pro sports like NFL, NHL, or MLB.
Pro cycling remains susceptible for reasons already mentioned, but I don't see that happening anytime soon.
Not that I would care either way if the sport was cleans, but I'm still curious how the sport got to this point.
Are riders finding it harder to access the gear because of more stringent anti-doping measures?
If so, why do those at the top seem to have free access?
I saw a Youtube video the other day that described Primo Roglic and his ascendency to the sport thusly: Elite ski jumper crashes and breaks multiple bones. Elite ski jumper decides to quit ski jumping and become a cyclist. He never rode a bike before. Within one year of quitting the sport, and after the injuries healed, he was a professional cyclist.
Nonsense.
I submit that the way this story is presented is impossible, yet it is not questioned.
How can someone like Remco pummel the competition in every discipline -- TT's, sprinting, mountains -- without even a hint of competition?
That does not make sense. I do not believe that with all the advancements in training, diet, etc. that everyone has access to, leads to such an incredible outlier.
MDVP.
WVA.
Pidcock.
Remco.
I'm sure I'm missing one or two, but the advantage shown by these riders makes others look like they're riding in the junior category.
I don't think rice cakes make the marginal difference here.

 

[Rob5091]

The Roglic story is true - though he was only a Junior ski jumper and quit when he realized he'd never make the elite or the crash gave him "the willies". ( This video shows his crash etc https://www.eurosport.co.uk/cycling...-enough-so-crashed-big_vid1111195/video.shtml ) It took 4 years before he rode for Jumbo.
It's interesting that both Roglic & Vingegaard got signed by Jumbo after doing physical tests for their former teams. The numbers were obviously better then average.
The big one you're missing is fellow Slovenian Pogacar.