State of Peloton 2023

[QueenStagiaire]

Pantani's Galibier raid also happened when it was really cold and raining cats and dogs.

As long as none of those were black cats, Pantani was fine in bad weather

 

[Mayomaniac]

As long as none of those were black cats, Pantani was fine in bad weather

Pantani yes, but it was Ulle's big weakness. Loved the heat, but couldn't handle cold, rainy weather.

 

[Red Rick]

So now we get the 6.8 W/kg for 24 minutes.

Almost good enough to follow 2014 pre TdF Contador

 

[red_flanders]

So now we get the 6.8 W/kg for 24 minutes.

Almost good enough to follow 2014 pre TdF Contador

Where are you seeing that, Rick? Thx. I can't say I'm surprised watching that today, I felt like it was big numbers. Getting crazy out there...

 

[Red Rick]

Where are you seeing that, Rick? Thx. I can't say I'm surprised watching that today, I felt like it was big numbers. Getting crazy out there...

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1639316234079551498

View: https://mobile.twitter.com/ammattipyoraily/status/1639316234079551498

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1639019374710333440

View: https://mobile.twitter.com/ammattipyoraily/status/1639019374710333440

 

[Riek s]

So now we get the 6.8 W/kg for 24 minutes.

Almost good enough to follow 2014 pre TdF Contador

yeah its getting nasty

I still don't get how Roglic goes from barely following in Tirreno (or so it seemed) to this in 2 weeks. We are at a point where the discussion on this is 'base level' and is out of shape :x.

on the upside, it seems everyone is doing the same thing, since the separation between riders is getting smaller and smaller while going faster and faster. But i heard in the JV story that the baking soda is being used by other teams now so...

 

[zlev11]

1925 VAM, those intervals are really paying off

 

[SafeBet]

Are we finally witnessing the Ibarguen effect on Movistar?

 

[Netserk]

Are we finally witnessing the Ibarguen effect on Movistar?

I think other circumstances make it look more pronounced, but it is remarkable to watch Movistar spank QS here after that transfer.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

1925 VAM, those intervals are really paying off

It's baking soda effect or the guy performing VAM calculation drank too much soda (or sth else).

 

[Rackham]

Itzulia is the one I'm waiting for. We've had the 'Magnificent 5' reach levels of epic this season so far, now I want to see what Vingegaard has in the legs, but also Gaudu as well. Perhaps Mas to a lesser degree but Gaudu & FDJ are ones to watch after his performance in Paris-Nice. Don't forget the TdF has only one puny little ITT so the advantage Pog & Vinge would normally get over the non-rouleur climbers isn't as big. It's always about 'who' makes the jump to the 'next levelling' (as Bernal put it) & the diminishing number of ITT kilometres can reduce the gap even further.

I'm also happy Rogla is back where he should be because these damned kids man... they thought they owned the road.

 

[Scarponi]

And Quintana can’t get a go haha

 

[Krzysztof_O]

I would like to comment on the performances of stage 5 in Catalunya regarding the clinic stuff but I really believe that in this case a 20-30 meters error in elevation (such things happen often, a lot of places in the mountains have an inaccurate elevation assigned, I can confirm it as a trekker) is more likely than 3 guys climbing in an ET mode 1900+ m/h (and 5 more guys in Pog/Vinge mutant mode 1850+ m/h) on a medium-length climb.

 

[Red Rick]

I would like to comment on the performances of stage 5 in Catalunya regarding the clinic stuff but I really believe that in this case a 20-30 meters error in elevation (such things happen often, a lot of places in the mountains have an inaccurate elevation assigned, I can confirm it as a trekker) is more likely than 3 guys climbing in an ET mode 1900+ m/h (and 5 more guys in Pog/Vinge mutant mode 1850+ m/h) on a medium-length climb.

Wouldn't explain riders doinng 6.2 W/kg finishing 1'30+ down

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Wouldn't explain riders doinng 6.2 W/kg finishing 1'30+ down

It would explain outrageous numbers. Keep in mind that VAM dropping by 50-70 m/h would still represent very favourable climbing circumstances that I never denied (i.e. unipuerto, low elevation, steep gradient), with top guys achieving 1850-1870 m/h and other good guys 1800 m/h.

 

[Netserk]

Performance extraordinaire sur le Tour de Catalogne 2023 pour Roglic et Evenepoel - par Frédéric Portoleau

Nous avons assisté à un duel au couteau entre Primoz Roglic et Remco Evenepoel sur le Tour de Catalogne. Le Slovène l'emporte au classement général avec seulement 6 secondes d'avance sur le Belge. La montée sèche vers Lo Port restera le sommet de la confrontation entre les deux coureurs...

www.chronoswatts.com

I think the numbers are right. The duo matched Andy Schleck's performance on Verbier. Even easier stage, lower altitude.

 

[Mayomaniac]

It would explain outrageous numbers. Keep in mind that VAM dropping by 50-70 m/h would still represent very favourable climbing circumstances that I never denied (i.e. unipuerto, low elevation, steep gradient), with top guys achieving 1850-1870 m/h and other good guys 1800 m/h.

Then again, VAM is such an unreliable thing if it's not a classic 7-8% climb. You can't compare performances on different gradients.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Then again, VAM is such an unreliable thing if it's not a classic 7-8% climb. You can't compare performances on different gradients.

VAM is more reliable than w/kg in a sense that estimations of the latter can cause further deviations (depending on exact calculation algorithm). Here you have pure vertical speed. Obviously comparing VAM between significantly varying gradients makes no sense but 8.8% is not a muro. There have been many 8-9% climbs done by top guys and yet this stands out.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

... which would be another travesty for cycling considering to what Rominger owes his entire career.

I actually don't believe a guy like Rominger is much worse than any of the big winners today. They do what they have to do in order to win, and if they didn't, then their positions within the sport would simply be taken over by someone else.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

I actually don't believe a guy like Rominger is much worse than any of the big winners today. They do what they have to do in order to win, and if they didn't, then their positions within the sport would simply be taken over by someone else.

Rominger and Roglic share a lot of similarities: the same body weight, both excelled in TTs and mountains, both winners of three consecutive Vueltas, both winners of nine big 1-week races, both 2nd at the Tour (as their best result), both with a big TT achievement (1-hour record and Olympic Gold respectively). Primoz needs this Giro victory and one more monument to make it a perfect draw.

 

[Mayomaniac]

Rominger and Roglic share a lot of similarities: the same body weight, both excelled in TTs and mountains, both winners of three consecutive Vueltas, both winners of nine big 1-week races, both 2nd at the Tour (as their best result), both with a big TT achievement (1-hour record and Olympic Gold respectively). Primoz needs this Giro victory and one more monument to make it a perfect draw.

Rominger was also a good one day racer and stagehunter before EPO came along (won the gc in Tirreno-Adriatico (plus 2 more podium finishes in the gc in this one, Emilia, Lombardia and a Giro stage in the late 80ies, also 2nd on the gc and stage wins in Romandie). While he clearly became a different rider it wasn't a full blown donkey to race horse transformation, frankly we've seen worse during the last decade or so. He made a huge step forward as a gt rider in the early 90ies, but he was already really good in one day races and shorter stage races before that.

 

[Rackham]

I think one of the biggest changes I've seen in cycling over the past 10 years is the advent of mountain top sprint shootouts between GC riders.

Back in the day (as far back as I could remember), one rider would invariably power solo to the line, or a couple, but the 'sprint' in that case would be pretty basic. These days, a GC rider needs literal sprinter abilities... in the final km of a special category col. Lo Port on Friday was the perfect example of this new cycling: it's no use just riding to the line (like Almeida) & losing merely 10 seconds or so, no, in order to be a GC champ a rider needs to be able to replicate tactics used on a flat stage finish in a small group... at 10% gradients.

Here's the final km I refer to (Rog even launches a couple of "fake news' dummy attacks just to draw out Evenepoel & cause a premature reaction):

View: https://youtu.be/CgOucwAh9Xo?t=280


Roglič has an unbelieve punch consistency on these types of finishes & the above video is an example of a finish which happens again & again these days, whilst I cannot remember it ever being really common back in the day (I have one such memory of Valverde when he was young beating Armstrong at Courchevel in the 2005 TdF with a similar sprint). Pogacar also has that skill & it looks like Evenepoel is developing the same himself (the intent definitely exists & he's improved a lot over the last year or so in that aspect).

So I think comparisons to riders in the 2000's, 1990's & earlier don't quite work for me because the repertoire of skills required to win GC in the early 2020's is much vaster than it used to be. I mean I'm sorry to his fanboys but peak Indurain gets spanked by Pog & Rog in the final km of a col, whilst they could arguably match him (or at least certainly limit their losses) in an ITT.

So beyond the question of doping just for the sake of doping, i.e. manipulating blood cells to go faster uphill, there's other skills which riders now need to win GC. Like mountain sprinting.

This is a truly wild era of cycling with "total cyclists" dominating the field & for me, Roglič was the first utterly complete rider I'd seen at this level (like pushing the all rounder concept from "ITT & climber specialist" to include "sprint specialist" as well).

 

[Krzysztof_O]

I mean I'm sorry to his fanboys but peak Indurain gets spanked by Pog & Rog in the final km of a col, whilst they could arguably match him (or at least certainly limit their losses) in an ITT.

if they manage to stay with Miguleon when he executes 500+ watts for 45 minutes before that final km. As for TTs, he was an absolute monster. One year he kinda won the Tour before it even entered the mountains. Rog & Pog would limit their loses on shorter or hilly TTs but not on those 50+ km flat courses from the 90s.

 

[Rackham]

if they manage to stay with Miguleon when he executes 500+ watts for 45 minutes before that final km. As for TTs, he was an absolute monster. One year he kinda won the Tour before it even entered the mountains. Rog & Pog would limit their loses on shorter or hilly TTs but not on those 50+ km flat courses from the 90s.

Maybe but I'd still love to see what the current champions could do against legendary watts monsters like Indurain. We need some sort of artificial intelligence program or something to simulate this.

But honestly I much, much prefer this current era, despite the everlasting charm of those childhood summer memories I have (yeah, that obviously includes Indurain & Rominger), i.e. give me the above Lo Port shootout any day over riders in the 1990's powering solo to the line. Rog & Evenepoel didn't just drop the watts, they literally raced each other. For the month of March in a cycling season to have two GT champs fighting like this in a one week stage race, it's wild.

Also, maybe this article was shared already but it touches on some interesting nutritional methods used in the peloton (Jumbo in particular): Jumbo-Visma and the 'game changer' baking soda system that's shaking up pro cycling - VeloNews.com

While other brands were experimenting with skin creams and lotions, the geeks at Maurten have found a way to get bicarb into the blood by having athletes eat a jello-like mixture that protects the stomach. And crucially, it doesn’t bring the risk of turning bib shorts brown.

Jumbo-Visma was involved from the very start of the years-long development process of Maurten’s must-have marginal gain.

Links between the Swedish brand and Jumbo-Visma’s lead nutritionist Asker Jeukendrup saw the team’s fleet of world-toppers become bicarbonate guinea pigs from as far back as 2019.

Roglič even used the in-development product before his victory over adversity at the Tokyo Olympics.

More recently, the nutrition brainiacs also worked with racers from SD Worx and Intermarché-Circus-Wanty in a back-and-forth process of training camp tests and laboratory tweaks until its formulation was ready for lift-off this February.

‘It’s opening a new world for some riders’

Roglič and Van Aert are both very big fans of Maurten’s new system. (Photo: DIRK WAEM/BELGA/AFP via Getty Images)
Heijboer told VeloNews most of his fleet of classics and stage racers started using the raw and unreleased system in 2021 before a sponsor-enforced break last year.

But now in 2023, Jumbo-Visma is fully loaded with bicarb, and loving it.

“This system is opening a new world for some of our riders who weren’t able to use bicarb before. I think it’s really a big change and a big advantage for riders who weren’t able to use it before,” Heijboer said.

As well as preventing G.I. distress, the new product also doubles bicarb absorption rate, meaning the gains are still coming seven hours deep into the longest monument or world championship race.

Heijboer couldn’t reveal if Van Aert used it at Milan-San Remo this weekend, but you can be he probably did.

“Using bicarb isn’t all about how a rider’s legs ‘feel,'” Heijboer said. “We’ve seen the power outputs for 20 or 30-second sprints is higher with bicarb. The riders cope better with the lactic acid which is produced in those hard efforts.

“So it definitely improves perception, but also output. That’s why riders like it so much.”

Using sodium bicarbonate isn’t for absolutely everyone though.

Heijboer said Tour de France champion Jonas Vingegaard is one of a handful of his team that steers clear of baking soda, while other recent users told VeloNews they were skeptical of its impact.

But the doubters aren’t stopping Maurten from being so confident in the power of its new system that its top brass is already talking about the ethics of using it. Sodium bicarbonate isn’t restricted by WADA and other doping bodies, but Maurten believes that might change now the brand has revolutionized its use.

For now however, the WorldTour might get a little bit faster thanks to a basic baking product.

No idea what this means but it's interesting nonetheless.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

But honestly I much, much prefer this current era, despite the everlasting charm of those childhood summer memories I have (yeah, that obviously includes Indurain & Rominger), i.e. give me the above Lo Port shootout any day over riders in the 1990's powering solo to the line. Rog & Evenepoel didn't just drop the watts, they literally raced each other. For the month of March in a cycling season to have two GT champs fighting like this in a one week stage race, it's wild.

Yeah, Catalunya was an epic battle. Add to it a TdF champion who fights on cobbles against big boys from the north. Guys who fight for victories all season long, no prep. races. Interesting times, indeed.