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State of the forum 2024

Page 12 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.
the forum Clinic, we know it, has lost some of its verve
imagine if Sky had won the previous year TDF, Gran Camino, Omloop, Kuurne, Tirreno, Catalunya, E3, GW, Dwars.
back in 2015-16 the forum would have crashed
In the ealry years of previous decade after Armstrong got exposed and Contador busted, there was a real and quite widespread hope for serious cleaning up of the sport among the fanbase including members of this forum. However unjustified and naive that hope may look in hindsight, it was very clearly present back then, both within the confines of this forum and the wider cycling world.

The rise of Sky and specially the way they managed to turn riders who to many looked like (road) donkies into dominant Tour winners quashed these hopes and illusions for good. Regardless of how justified those impressions were, they caused Sky being seen as a destroyer of hopes and dreams, the ones who dragged the sport back into the ugly days of past . There weren't these kind of hopes and emotions running high prior to the rise of Jumbo-Visma anymore and as a consequence the backlash to their ensuing domination has been lot more subdued and less emotional, both in this forum and outside it.

There are other factors that play a role in the difference of treatment Sky and Jumbo-Visma have got, but state of the cycling world and difference in expectations people inside it had prior to the onset of their respective domination periods is for me by far the most important one.
 
this confirms what I always said. doping does not bother fans. because we can compare Sky and Jumbo fuel. and dear me Jumbo has a strong one.
many fans probably were hopeful (well, many fans were Astana and Saxo fans, so I don't think what they were hoping for ffs) but there was a corner of hardcore users on here and twitter that just plain hated Sky and the British flag. Dumoulin rose from Kittel train man and TT guy, to Giro winner beating Quinatana. he was liked and praised. he almost saved cycling twice in 2018 by coming 2nd at the Giro and Tour behind Sky. I argued a lot with some of the harshest anti-Sky. it was plain hate and dislike. some of them like WVA and Jumbo now, because it's anyone but Sky.
 
this confirms what I always said. doping does not bother fans. because we can compare Sky and Jumbo fuel. and dear me Jumbo has a strong one.
many fans probably were hopeful (well, many fans were Astana and Saxo fans, so I don't think what they were hoping for ffs) but there was a corner of hardcore users on here and twitter that just plain hated Sky and the British flag. Dumoulin rose from Kittel train man and TT guy, to Giro winner beating Quinatana. he was liked and praised. he almost saved cycling twice in 2018 by coming 2nd at the Giro and Tour behind Sky. I argued a lot with some of the harshest anti-Sky. it was plain hate and dislike. some of them like WVA and Jumbo now, because it's anyone but Sky.
You are just too fixated on forums percieved anti-Sky bias and as consequence completely misread what I said. My main point was that it was the dashed hopes that doping can be if not eradicated then at least greatly diminished in cycling that mainly fuelled the hatred and vitriol Sky received. Sky was percieved to be the crusher of those hopes and became intensely hated for that. The issue of doping is at the very heart of the much more intense backlash Sky's rise received compared to Jumbo's.
 
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You are just too fixated on forums percieved anti-Sky bias and as consequence completely misread what I said. My main point was that it was the dashed hopes that doping can be if not eradicated then at least greatly diminished in cycling that mainly fuelled the hatred and vitriol Sky received. Sky was percieved to be the crusher of those hopes and became intensely hated for that. The issue of doping is at the very heart of the much more intense backlash Sky's rise received compared to Jumbo's.

I got what you said. I was trying to understand that all the people so very bothered about doping, did bash Sky also for an amount of many various reasons, like any stick to beat them. remember the mocking for the "whales" ocean rescue jersey? well, their beloved Astana (Samruk-KAzyna oil) or Total are polluting too, but it seems like they get a pass.
also, you say "crusher of hopes". which hopes? among the anti Sky there were Astana fans! ASTANA!!!!! were they so naive to think Sky came and crushed their hopes?
also, many anti sky deemed themselves -antidopers-. well, if people are antidopers they better shout as loud as they did with Sky, now that Jumbo does the same, or even stronger. even if some hopes were crushed, the antidopers shouldnt give up! keep shouting!

to Põhja Konn: forgive me, I had this sky-discussion dozens times before and I still keep doing the same mistake. peace :sweatsmile:
 
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I got what you said. I was trying to understand that all the people so very bothered about doping, did bash Sky also for an amount of many various reasons, like any stick to beat them. remember the mocking for the "whales" ocean rescue jersey? well, their beloved Astana (Samruk-KAzyna oil) or Total are polluting too, but it seems like they get a pass.
also, you say "crusher of hopes". which hopes? among the anti Sky there were Astana fans! ASTANA!!!!! were they so naive to think Sky came and crushed their hopes?
also, many anti sky deemed themselves -antidopers-. well, if people are antidopers they better shout as loud as they did with Sky, now that Jumbo does the same, or even stronger. even you some hopes were crushed, the antidopers shouldnt give up! keep shouting!

to Põhja Konn: forgive me, I had this sky-discussion dozens times before and I still keep doing the same mistake. peace :sweatsmile:
Of course it's different to sin and to sin plus preach virtue.

Just as it is different to have shady personnel while branding yourself as the anti-doping team with a ZTP.
 
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this confirms what I always said. doping does not bother fans. because we can compare Sky and Jumbo fuel. and dear me Jumbo has a strong one.
many fans probably were hopeful (well, many fans were Astana and Saxo fans, so I don't think what they were hoping for ffs) but there was a corner of hardcore users on here and twitter that just plain hated Sky and the British flag. Dumoulin rose from Kittel train man and TT guy, to Giro winner beating Quinatana. he was liked and praised. he almost saved cycling twice in 2018 by coming 2nd at the Giro and Tour behind Sky. I argued a lot with some of the harshest anti-Sky. it was plain hate and dislike. some of them like WVA and Jumbo now, because it's anyone but Sky.

the problem is not that Sky were singled out more than anyone else, the problem was that there was a glut of Sky fanboys on here that dragged out huge arguments with the people calling BS. Jumbo doesn't have that here. maybe if this were a Dutch speaking forum it would be different, I don't know.

that said, the major reason that Sky so much got more flak was because they took the absolute dirt worst riders in the peloton and turned them into some of the best riders of all-time. Jumbo has not really done that. Van Baarle, Benoot, even Laporte had success before joining the team, Roglic had a pretty steady rise to where he is and WVA was a super talent since he was like 8 months old. The only one of their riders that really came out of nowhere was Vingegaard and there was a lot of posts in here about him during the Tour last year. even then, they still all are talked about in here after they win something, but like I said the sheer number of posts is much lower than during the Sky years because there's almost nobody in this forum arguing that they're clean.
 
but like I said the sheer number of posts is much lower than during the Sky years because there's almost nobody in this forum arguing that they're clean.

fine, I get it. so a huge amount of the tweets and the posts, were hiding behind the "antidoping" fight, and were just pure haters.
the vitriol against sky (with a numerous amount of users mocking them for their "clean" stance) came by a pocket of users who just plain hated the brits winning and said cycling was in danger, hiding their hate behind the "antidoping"shield.
because you see now those same people either don't write here anymore or are much cooler on twitter, the possible RaboJumbo doping does niot seem to bether them so much.
so they were not antidopers, they hid behind that, to just bash Sky
it's fine, I got used to that, I argued a lot since 2014 on here, I'm just talking about it, don't want to argue again.
the mocking of froome's style, the mocking of Sky jerseys, their bikes, the hand washing (go figure, they were ahead of it, came 2020 we all did it) the mocking of riders signing for them for doing the same work they were doing in other teams (Castroviejo main example) and so on.
 
fine, I get it. so a huge amount of the tweets and the posts, were hiding behind the "antidoping" fight, and were just pure haters.
the vitriol against sky (with a numerous amount of users mocking them for their "clean" stance) came by a pocket of users who just plain hated the brits winning and said cycling was in danger, hiding their hate behind the "antidoping"shield.
because you see now those same people either don't write here anymore or are much cooler on twitter, the possible RaboJumbo doping does niot seem to bether them so much.
so they were not antidopers, they hid behind that, to just bash Sky
it's fine, I got used to that, I argued a lot since 2014 on here, I'm just talking about it, don't want to argue again.
the mocking of froome's style, the mocking of Sky jerseys, their bikes, the hand washing (go figure, they were ahead of it, came 2020 we all did it) the mocking of riders signing for them for doing the same work they were doing in other teams (Castroviejo main example) and so on.
You have stated that numerous times, yet you don't engage with any of the arguments in the other direction.

Can you either argue that Sky was not in any way different (and so disprove the arguments that they were), or explicitly acknowledge that there is a relevant difference between them and now Jumbo (other than nationality)?
 
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You have stated that numerous times, yet you don't engage with any of the arguments in the other direction.

Can you either argue that Sky was not in any way different (and so disprove the arguments that they were), or explicitly acknowledge that there is a relevant difference between them and now Jumbo (other than nationality)?

it's the same. Jumbo is even stronger.
the top brass at Sky (the owners-sponsors) had to go with the "clean" stance, to hook the newcomers fans, yadda yadda etc.
so I get many twitters and forum ppl were pissed about that. I UNDERSTAND THIS so Sky got bashed for that. I get it.
BUT many of them, though, hid behind the antidoping fight, to bash them for anything.
the same people now, on twitter or here, either disappeared or aren't so vocal.
that's what I mean. don't pretend to care abiut PEDs if a team stronger than Sky comes and you are not that vocal about PEDs with them.

I was discussing on twitter and I got this reply, that makes sense

View: https://twitter.com/bstrdsunited49/status/1641085804888879104
 
Pohja Konn said that people's hope for a cleaner cycling were dashed by Sky.
I didnt say people were dumb haters. I aknowledge the mistake of Sky going with the "clean" stance I aknowledge how many fans were angry at them
I also added that many fans, instead saying we're angry about theis false clean stance, hid behind the antidoping fight and looked veeeery bothered by Leinders, the Teide training, and so.
same peole are not that bothered by Jumbo being the old Rabo, training on Teide, smashing races day-in day-out
 
fine, I get it. so a huge amount of the tweets and the posts, were hiding behind the "antidoping" fight, and were just pure haters.
the vitriol against sky (with a numerous amount of users mocking them for their "clean" stance) came by a pocket of users who just plain hated the brits winning and said cycling was in danger, hiding their hate behind the "antidoping"shield.
because you see now those same people either don't write here anymore or are much cooler on twitter, the possible RaboJumbo doping does niot seem to bether them so much.
so they were not antidopers, they hid behind that, to just bash Sky

this is absolutely not true. the same exact people railed against Lance Armstrong since the beginning of this forum. is he British? they were making a mockery of the biggest races with riders who were previously packfill. Italian and Spanish riders got the same amount of vitriol but guess what? there was nobody here arguing they were clean like there was for Sky riders. it's plain and simple. there was no prejudice against the British.

you do know there is an entire thread just a few clicks away from this one titled "Team Jumbo-Visma" where people post the exact same kind of *** they did in the Team Sky thread in 2014, right? and there's one for Pogacar/UAE, Remco, Quick Step, etc.
 
On another note, am I the only one a bit disgusted by what we saw in ronde?
yes, me too. But Podagar has the best most undetectable peds , the best doctors advising him along with maybe a new form of blood bag. At his rate of winning I can only hope we get some journalist to start digging like David Walsh ? But these GCN, and Eurosport goofs are so gullible for the "not normal" and the "show" of the sport that I think this is it for the next decade
 
this confirms what I always said. doping does not bother fans.
How can you say this as a response to a long, well thought-out post about how and why fans are and were bothered by doping. You just have your narrative and are looking for ways to confirm it, which is super common, but at least don't imply that what other forumers say corroborates your point of view

But hey, it's easier to play the victim and develop a nationalist-based persecution complex than to accept that maybe, just maybe, the team that emerged in a completely different envinronment to absolutely dominate GTs for 5-6 years with not one not two but three different riders who all came out of nowhere while preaching how virtuous they were and spending absurd amounts of money might have been rather unique, thereby justifying a unique response from the fans in a way that a one-off GT victory by Tom Dumoulin (who nevertheless still elicited a lot of discussion in the Clinic) could not and should not have.
 
How can you say this as a response to a long, well thought-out post about how and why fans are and were bothered by doping. You just have your narrative and are looking for ways to confirm it, which is super common, but at least don't imply that what other forumers say corroborates your point of view

But hey, it's easier to play the victim and develop a nationalist-based persecution complex than to accept that maybe, just maybe, the team that emerged in a completely different envinronment to absolutely dominate GTs for 5-6 years with not one not two but three different riders who all came out of nowhere while preaching how virtuous they were and spending absurd amounts of money might have been rather unique, thereby justifying a unique response from the fans in a way that a one-off GT victory by Tom Dumoulin (who nevertheless still elicited a lot of discussion in the Clinic) could not and should not have.
The #1 reason the Sky Clinic threads got so massive is because they had a few Sky fans defending them at all costs. Other teams don't have people pretending they're cleanz.
 
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Pohja Konn said that people's hope for a cleaner cycling were dashed by Sky.
I didnt say people were dumb haters. I aknowledge the mistake of Sky going with the "clean" stance I aknowledge how many fans were angry at them
I also added that many fans, instead saying we're angry about theis false clean stance, hid behind the antidoping fight and looked veeeery bothered by Leinders, the Teide training, and so.
same peole are not that bothered by Jumbo being the old Rabo, training on Teide, smashing races day-in day-out
It's not that people aren't bothered by it. It's that for a lot of people, the hope that anti-doping is actually about cleaning up the sport is currently at rock bottom levels. We aren't discovering new things about doping, we don't have recent frames of reference of high profile doping incidents to compare against, and don't have the confidence in the powers that be of any stripe actually wanting to fix the problem, that many simply aren't as invested anymore in the storylines of the Clinic. The 90s were a ridiculous time in doping, but then we had things like Festina, the EPO test and so on.. Big advances in anti-doping. Then somebody comes along with suspicious transformations and dominates and people doubt it, and create a lot of dialogue. Then they clear off and we get things like Puerto, Oil For Drugs, the 2008 CERA busts, and anti-doping progresses a huge distance in a short period of time. We have characters who get busted who talk big-time about what they did, how they did it, who did it. People like Sinkewitz, Sella, Rasmussen, Kohl, Frei. Fans learnt a lot about the seedy underbelly and a lot of interest was generated. Whoever became dominant straight after that was always going to come in for a lot of scrutiny, because fans - although still a lot more ignorant than they thought they were - were a lot more clued-in as to what lay beneath than they'd ever been before.

If you look at the early Sky rosters and said that the riders that went on to be big stars were, like, Rigoberto Urán and Edvald Boasson Hagen, there'd be way less discourse generated, because those guys had always been good from a young age, whereas Sky managed to convert veteran track racers who hadn't shown climbing ability in a decade as a pro and injury-prone classics men into elite climbers, not to mention Froome's incredible rise from the verge of being dropped to take a minimum WT wage domestique contract at Lampre or Garmin to becoming the greatest rider of his generation, before we get to the insane number of contortions required to create a coherent and credible timeline for his medical history with his racing ability. Doing this at a time shortly after we'd seen some incredibly blatant jumps in performance pulled up for doping (di Luca, Sella, Mosquera, Kohl) was always going to generate huge amounts of discussion.


But there haven't been any big doping busts lately - those that there have been have been either small fry teams and riders (many of whom have been pretty blatant, like W52, to the extent that they are mostly just laughed at rather than scrutinised) or they've been for pretty minor things like Nairo Quintana for tramadol, and nobody believes that tramadol on its own is the entirety of a 2023 full scale doping program any more than they believe Alberto Contador actually ate a tainted special steak brought personally for him. So there isn't any real feeling that we have an idea of what we're looking for, and we have had a few cases in the intervening period that have dealt huge blows to the credibility of positive tests - Daryl Impey and Roman Kreuziger managing to poke huge holes in the ability to secure bans from biopassport irregularities, for example. At the moment, there isn't the same need for obfuscation or the same belief on the part of vocal anti-doping voices in the chances of securing any kind of conviction if anything is turned up. Simultaneously Jumbo are a representative of 'old' cycling. They're the old Rabobank team. They can't have the same pretence of "that was then and this is now and everything is clean and we are proof" because they were there back in the day and they were doing it back in the day. They can't make the same false promises as Sky did because nobody will believe them in the first place.

I honestly think that was the bigger part of it. People don't like cheats, but even more than that they don't like feeling like they're being taken for idiots. Jumbo don't have that. They are shady as all hell. Wout van Aert's ability to climb like he does at his size and sprint like he does across the range that he does is as suspicious as anything Geraint Thomas has ever done, and lord knows I've said my piece on his transformation over the years. Vingegaard's emergence, and the way van Aert and Laporte have been riding all spring... it's crazy. But people had genuine hopes that the sport would clean up after the fallout from Puerto, the 2008 Tour (the cleanest in living memory, or at least the best for anti-doping), and the Reasoned Decision meaning that the sport was finally free of the spectre of the EPO era and Armstrong for good. And given the talk that they talked, people had some belief that Sky might be a large part of that. Most of the mockery they endured in 2010 was more about their corporate presentation and self-aggrandisement, and nothing to do with doping accusations, that came later. As a result Sky turning into the very same thing that we'd just seen a decade-long fight to get rid of meant they were treated far worse than had they been just one of the old guard teams like Quick Step, Movistar or indeed Jumbo.
 
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It's not that people aren't bothered by it. It's that for a lot of people, the hope that anti-doping is actually about cleaning up the sport is currently at rock bottom levels. We aren't discovering new things about doping, we don't have recent frames of reference of high profile doping incidents to compare against, and don't have the confidence in the powers that be of any stripe actually wanting to fix the problem, that many simply aren't as invested anymore in the storylines of the Clinic. The 90s were a ridiculous time in doping, but then we had things like Festina, the EPO test and so on.. Big advances in anti-doping. Then somebody comes along with suspicious transformations and dominates and people doubt it, and create a lot of dialogue. Then they clear off and we get things like Puerto, Oil For Drugs, the 2008 CERA busts, and anti-doping progresses a huge distance in a short period of time. We have characters who get busted who talk big-time about what they did, how they did it, who did it. People like Sinkewitz, Sella, Rasmussen, Kohl, Frei. Fans learnt a lot about the seedy underbelly and a lot of interest was generated. Whoever became dominant straight after that was always going to come in for a lot of scrutiny, because fans - although still a lot more ignorant than they thought they were - were a lot more clued-in as to what lay beneath than they'd ever been before.

If you look at the early Sky rosters and said that the riders that went on to be big stars were, like, Rigoberto Urán and Edvald Boasson Hagen, there'd be way less discourse generated, because those guys had always been good from a young age, whereas Sky managed to convert veteran track racers who hadn't shown climbing ability in a decade as a pro and injury-prone classics men into elite climbers, not to mention Froome's incredible rise from the verge of being dropped to take a minimum WT wage domestique contract at Lampre or Garmin to becoming the greatest rider of his generation, before we get to the insane number of contortions required to create a coherent and credible timeline for his medical history with his racing ability. Doing this at a time shortly after we'd seen some incredibly blatant jumps in performance pulled up for doping (di Luca, Sella, Mosquera, Kohl) was always going to generate huge amounts of discussion.


But there haven't been any big doping busts lately - those that there have been have been either small fry teams and riders (many of whom have been pretty blatant, like W52, to the extent that they are mostly just laughed at rather than scrutinised) or they've been for pretty minor things like Nairo Quintana for tramadol, and nobody believes that tramadol on its own is the entirety of a 2023 full scale doping program any more than they believe Alberto Contador actually ate a tainted special steak brought personally for him. So there isn't any real feeling that we have an idea of what we're looking for, and we have had a few cases in the intervening period that have dealt huge blows to the credibility of positive tests - Daryl Impey and Roman Kreuziger managing to poke huge holes in the ability to secure bans from biopassport irregularities, for example. At the moment, there isn't the same need for obfuscation or the same belief on the part of vocal anti-doping voices in the chances of securing any kind of conviction if anything is turned up. Simultaneously Jumbo are a representative of 'old' cycling. They're the old Rabobank team. They can't have the same pretence of "that was then and this is now and everything is clean and we are proof" because they were there back in the day and they were doing it back in the day. They can't make the same false promises as Sky did because nobody will believe them in the first place.

I honestly think that was the bigger part of it. People don't like cheats, but even more than that they don't like feeling like they're being taken for idiots. Jumbo don't have that. They are shady as all hell. Wout van Aert's ability to climb like he does at his size and sprint like he does across the range that he does is as suspicious as anything Geraint Thomas has ever done, and lord knows I've said my piece on his transformation over the years. Vingegaard's emergence, and the way van Aert and Laporte have been riding all spring... it's crazy. But people had genuine hopes that the sport would clean up after the fallout from Puerto, the 2008 Tour (the cleanest in living memory, or at least the best for anti-doping), and the Reasoned Decision meaning that the sport was finally free of the spectre of the EPO era and Armstrong for good. And given the talk that they talked, people had some belief that Sky might be a large part of that. Most of the mockery they endured in 2010 was more about their corporate presentation and self-aggrandisement, and nothing to do with doping accusations, that came later. As a result Sky turning into the very same thing that we'd just seen a decade-long fight to get rid of meant they were treated far worse than had they been just one of the old guard teams like Quick Step, Movistar or indeed Jumbo.
Great post as usual.

I would also add that while Jumbo have certainly strangled the Tour de France in the last few years, they have lost it more often than they've won it, and they don't have the biggest freak outlier in the sport in their ranks.
 
fine, I get it. so a huge amount of the tweets and the posts, were hiding behind the "antidoping" fight, and were just pure haters.
the vitriol against sky (with a numerous amount of users mocking them for their "clean" stance) came by a pocket of users who just plain hated the brits winning and said cycling was in danger, hiding their hate behind the "antidoping"shield.
because you see now those same people either don't write here anymore or are much cooler on twitter, the possible RaboJumbo doping does niot seem to bether them so much.
so they were not antidopers, they hid behind that, to just bash Sky
it's fine, I got used to that, I argued a lot since 2014 on here, I'm just talking about it, don't want to argue again.
the mocking of froome's style, the mocking of Sky jerseys, their bikes, the hand washing (go figure, they were ahead of it, came 2020 we all did it) the mocking of riders signing for them for doing the same work they were doing in other teams (Castroviejo main example) and so on.
This was me. I embrace it. I hated the Brits winning, because of the way Brit posters here acted, and it made it sweeter to jab them, when it also seemed clear that the "they're clean" mantra was also complete BS.

Sky was dirty.
 
this is absolutely not true. the same exact people railed against Lance Armstrong since the beginning of this forum. is he British? they were making a mockery of the biggest races with riders who were previously packfill. Italian and Spanish riders got the same amount of vitriol but guess what? there was nobody here arguing they were clean like there was for Sky riders. it's plain and simple. there was no prejudice against the British.

you do know there is an entire thread just a few clicks away from this one titled "Team Jumbo-Visma" where people post the exact same kind of *** they did in the Team Sky thread in 2014, right? and there's one for Pogacar/UAE, Remco, Quick Step, etc.

This is me as well. The parallels between American fans of Armstrong and British fans of Sky are all there to see.
 
This was me. I embrace it. I hated the Brits winning, because of the way Brit posters here acted, and it made it sweeter to jab them, when it also seemed clear that the "they're clean" mantra was also complete BS.

Sky was dirty.

I'm not even Brit, I'm Italian. I've healed now, but I was probably the maddest Italian Sky fan.
Dimspace on here and twitter explained what Sky did. cortisone abuse. allowed OOC back then.
people wanted blood and epo, they were angry Sky wasn't busted for those (unlike Astana and others)

View: https://twitter.com/dimspace/status/1193270767443759104
 
Do you believe given everything we know about the abuse of the TUE system, the Freeman/testosterone saga, Josh Edmondson and the tramadol discussion, and all of the other inconsistencies in stories that suggest something is being hidden, that cortisone abuse out of competition was the sum total of Sky's misdemeanour/Sky's abuse of grey areas?

Dim is certainly willing to accept that there was abuse of those grey areas and Sky were not the all-singing all-dancing clean team that they purported to be, but I don't even believe Dim thinks that's all there was to it, but that this is the sum of what he is sure about and is willing to divulge. Dim is also somebody who ran a Team Sky fansite and explicitly called himself TeamSkyFans for a while. He certainly wasn't one of the trolling type pro-Sky posters who perpetuated argumentative rather than discursive posting in the Clinic and never has been, but while he may be ready to accept that the team were not what they purported to be, nevertheless I wouldn't be surprised - nor would I blame him - if he were to be reluctant to dig deeper in the face of uncomfortable truths given he was so vocally supportive.
 
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all the stuff you listed is not epo/blood as many said and wanted it to be.
tramadol was legal, no Sky rider had testosterone problems/positives, cortisone out of competition was fine, the TUE abuse was smart (but unfair), and surely puffers were used to help. that's the cocktail they tried and found to be usefull. it's walking the grey line and grey area (and I get you can't claim to be the new guys doing it clean but using your grey area methods, so that's where they got much *** on here and twitter)
but no Sky rider was ever involved in epo and blood doping investigation, unlike many other teams
 

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