State of the peloton 2022

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Sep 22, 2020
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Yeah, it shows that you've done basic "investigation".

Dumoulin got worse while at Jumbo and his World Championship win was while he was still at Sunweb.
Oh sorry, yes I confuse all those Dutch teams with them winning everything, I mean it's bad enough on the men's side never mind the women...

(I assume Dumoulin had a better "program" at Sunweb to fit his physique, whereas JBV's juice suits the lighter guys better...)
 
I dunno iceblink...I think Jumbo's programme fits super responders, regardless of physique. WVA's not a light guy yet he rides the cols like a climber. Of any crosser, I expected such a performance maybe from Pidcock, yet he seemed outclassed at every level by WVA, TP's superb and well-deserved win on Alpe d'Huez notwithstanding.
WVA dropping Pogacar was an absurdity, an anachronism that harkens back to the darkest days of doping's sordid history in cycling. It also underscores that the whole "new generation of clean cycling" story was the canard we always suspected it to be.
That said, I still watch because I love this sport. It's tough to reconcile, I know, and maybe watching makes me somewhat of a hypocrite. But this is the most beautiful sport in the world.
 
That said, I still watch because I love this sport. It's tough to reconcile, I know, and maybe watching makes me somewhat of a hypocrite. But this is the most beautiful sport in the world.
Fortunately, there are several genres within cycling. Personally I find the classics and the mid mountain stages more interesting than the highest Alpes and Pyrenees. I like the complexity of the tough hilly races - the battle between the groups and different type of riders. Mountain stages can often be reduced to a matter of watts per kilo - and at the same time to less credible performances.
 
Well well well, where do we go from here?
After some tought, i think the bloodpasport was a step in the good direction, as long as they keep the control and the analysis. But they should also include power/HRM/ other metrics of all the trainings/races the moment they step into the world of cycling. (so biopassport & power/hrm/weight...).

This can be analyzed and secured and followed-up. That way the doping control has a good knowledge about the evolution of the metrics in combination with the power. They would also be able to judge the power delivered during racing etc.
Give them also the ability to judge how a cyclist progresses during a GT. Would ofcourse require more frequent blood samples as well.

After the cyclist retires some of the data can be released to public and more external scruteny as a an after verification step of the doping control. So the doping control can be evaluated and judged , penalized in case they colluded with riders.
 
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Not close to 80kg but Olano, Zülle, Ullrich, Armstrong, Riis were all above 70kg. Not crazy but definitely above the norm compared to today (even Dumoulin at his peak was less than 70kg). I think the surrounding factors regarding TT relevance @Libertine Seguros mentioned definitely played a role but EPO must have had an impact as well on helping the bigger guys. Ullrich really shouldn't have the best non-Pantani, non-ITT time up Alpe d'Huez or the Madeleine or Arcalis record, Riis not the Hautacam record, Indurain not the La Plagne record...

An other random thing I noted re-watching a lot of 90s videos is the insane amount of time people are climbing out of the saddle. Watch the Pantani one man show in the Giro 98 or 99 and he's basically running up the mountain, not just accelerations, constant tempo pushing. I wonder if this is gear related or has also some physiological EPO background.
Funny enough the one typical EPO era gc who looks like a modern gc rider was Berzin. A smaller track guy (closer in size to Pantani than to Indurain) who was rather lanky (when in shape) and had a great TT position with a flat back.
 
Less controlled cycling are more likely to produce bigger time gaps? So was the gaps bigger back when cycling was less controlled?

I mean when everything is controlled it's really hard to get those big gaps.
 
Well well well, where do we go from here?
Yes, that's the question. My sense is that we're back to the early-mid 1990s or 2000's EPO era and, if anything, things will get more ridiculous from here. I think the likes of Evenepoel and MVP saw this Tour and said, "ok, so it's open season." I get the impression that MvP tried pan y agua and saw that even at his extraordinary talent, he could not even hold Van Aert's wheel.
Maybe we'll even get to see the likes of Heras using the brakes on uphill climbs at the Vuelta again.
 
The cat is out of the bag now.

When nothing happens to Jumbo, half the peloton is going to look at what they've done & attempt to replicate it themselves. This is an arms race. It's what happened between 2020 & 2022 when Jumbo looked at Pogacar & replicated it with Vingegaard & their entire team multiple times over (to an absurd level of disbelief).

It means in 2024 there's going to be a new no-name total nobody dropping insane watts bombs on the climbs & people saying "he was always a climbing talent, he just couldn't show it because he was born in really flat country!".

Rinse & repeat. In a peloton with such a clinical free-for-all, 'generational talents' are mass produced like iPhones.

July 2022: Muggle like me suddenly spend lots of time following the clinic.
I can't even discuss this TdF & Jumbo's "winners" in the main forums now because it's impossible to type anything related to the race without clinic references. I can't imagine having a conversation with people who actually really do believe what they're seeing is legitimate sport.
 
After some tought, i think the bloodpasport was a step in the good direction, as long as they keep the control and the analysis. But they should also include power/HRM/ other metrics of all the trainings/races the moment they step into the world of cycling. (so biopassport & power/hrm/weight...).

This can be analyzed and secured and followed-up. That way the doping control has a good knowledge about the evolution of the metrics in combination with the power. They would also be able to judge the power delivered during racing etc.
Give them also the ability to judge how a cyclist progresses during a GT. Would ofcourse require more frequent blood samples as well.

After the cyclist retires some of the data can be released to public and more external scruteny as a an after verification step of the doping control. So the doping control can be evaluated and judged , penalized in case they colluded with riders.
But how would you flag power data for example. Improvements, even large ones, are theoretically possible without doping.
 
But how would you flag power data for example. Improvements, even large ones, are theoretically possible without doping.
True, but these don't happen over night, so if you have all the training records it should be seen. Also HR and other factors should also change over time. Not saying there aren't issues. But the blood levels can be compared against a range of training/race profiles.

For example they would see Mcnulty and his power output/HR during the tour and then see his explosion on that specific stage and with that data is would be easy to determine if it requires a bit or a lot more scrutenity and follow-up.

Same as the bloodpasport which isn't really made to bust people based on it, but to have something in place to know when to take a much closer look. ( I also believe with the bloodpasport some things should have been seen in this tour...)

But yeah i'm no expert... :( Just a guy who loves cycling and can't even comprehend what we are seeing (again). grasping straws... the privacy <-> sescurity dilemma :)
 
The cat is out of the bag now.

When nothing happens to Jumbo, half the peloton is going to look at what they've done & attempt to replicate it themselves. This is an arms race. It's what happened between 2020 & 2022 when Jumbo looked at Pogacar & replicated it with Vingegaard & their entire team multiple times over (to an absurd level of disbelief).

It means in 2024 there's going to be a new no-name total nobody dropping insane watts bombs on the climbs & people saying "he was always a climbing talent, he just couldn't show it because he was born in really flat country!".

Rinse & repeat. In a peloton with such a clinical free-for-all, 'generational talents' are mass produced like iPhones.



I can't even discuss this TdF & Jumbo's "winners" in the main forums now because it's impossible to type anything related to the race without clinic references. I can't imagine having a conversation with people who actually really do believe what they're seeing is legitimate sport.
Doping in sport fluctuates like macro and microeconomic cycles!
 
For the record, all think all the top guys are doping, but Jumbo in this year's Tour have crossed the line and seriously taken the p**s !!
I could simplistically reduce the reality of this TdF down to "Sky innovates with marginal gains in 2012 >Jumbo copies Sky > UAE & Pogacar smash down the glass ceiling in 2020 > Jumbo copies UAE".

In between there's various experiments (Padun!), some pretty brazen tryhards (Colbrelli, i.e. which almost ended really badly for him for xyz reasons) & some other riders & teams who fluctuate between God-like watts & normalcy based on their targets (I think Quick Step are good at this, for example Alaphilippe who's invincible in the world championships & returns to normal in other races).

But the military revenge campaign of Jumbo Visma in this TdF where they've brutalized the peloton with brute force? This is Festina in the Courchevel stage in the 1997 TdF, but every single day on every stage profile with the best climber who is also one of the best rouleurs (& vice versa) & everything in between.
 
It's also kinda weird how many of the best riders did something else before they turned to the road.

MVDP and WvA come from cyclocross, Vingo from a fishing market, Roglic from skijumping, Thomas from trackcycling, Evenepoel from football.
 
I can't even discuss this TdF & Jumbo's "winners" in the main forums now because it's impossible to type anything related to the race without clinic references. I can't imagine having a conversation with people who actually really do believe what they're seeing is legitimate sport.
Yet mainstream media is turning the blind eye and digesting all the show, general public can only either believe or puke at the headlines.
 
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Jns

Feb 25, 2018
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I am new to this forum, so sorry for stupid questions. But why are you all so convinced that all the top riders / top teams are doping? Is this based on any verifiable and objective facts, or only your gut feeling?
 
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