Stop watching/sponsoring prosport (poll included)

[sniper]

Thinking about it, what's the point of prosport if it inevitably entails grotesque corruption, doping, fraud, and various forms of cheating.
I'm at the point where I think that the best (perhaps even the only) way to tackle the corruption, doping and cheating in prosport is to stop watching it (and/or sponsoring it in related ways) altogether.

Good idea?

 

[King Boonen]

Basically yes. Sport is about money and this is really the only way to affect that bottom line. I watch a few races but that's it and I'm close to giving that up too.

 

[pastronef]

I won´t. it´s subjective I know. very subjective.
me, I never thought about a "fair" sport. I dont watch the sport because I cheer for a good athlete who beats his evil contenders.
I stopped racing at 16, so I didnt race with juniores or under23, I didnt see any donkey turned into a horse beating me.
maybe that is what makes me unbothered about doping. it´s part of the game, of the circus.
and I watch for entertaiment, I dont put my hopes and energy into a race outcome. when they cross the line I turn off, dont even listen to the interviews.
I like watching races too much, to be bothered about thinking "oh look Astana is attacking, *** Vino´s team who bought Liege I hate them" or "wtf Poels is drinking a coke uphill fresh as a daisy" and so on.
I want to see them race and lose/win, put a newspaper under the jersey and take those alpine downhills, be rattled on the bergs in Flanders, reach the French riviera in March, climb the Poggio, cross the Meuse in Belgium, climb Agnello, Tourmalet, Ventoux, ride in those huge black bulls´s shade in Andalucia. and so on and on and on.

I also understand the ill fate of Landis, Jaksche, Ricco etc. can´t deny that. they been screwed by the system.

but I cant stop watching, be it even for the Gorges du Tarn, or the sound of cobbles, or the echelons...

and about other sport´s corruption, doping etc.. I have no idea of what´s going on in other sports. I watch alpine skiing in winter and ski jumping, havent a clue about soccer or any sport involving balls, I watch the olympics for fun, not aware of what´s going on behind.

 

[sniper]

............go ride ones bike instead................alas! i'm addicted,,,conditioned to believe it's important whom wins my

fave races...................................mind the scenery can be nice/drama unfolds

Mark L

yeah, i got caught in a bit of a depressive moment and this depressive thread is the result.

good points both ways, cheers.

I realize the joy and excitement etc. many people experience when watching their favorite sports/games/athletes on tele, and i don't want to deprive anybody of that.
But personally I don't want to contribute a single penny to the bank accounts of those corrupt clowns that are running the show.
And the best/only way to achieve that i think is to stop watching, stop going to games, and stop buying sports magazines.

If prosport collapses, the only people I'd feel sorry for are the handful of quality sports journos like Kimmage and Stokes.

 

[sniper]

Re:

Basically yes. Sport is about money and this is really the only way to affect that bottom line. I watch a few races but that's it and I'm close to giving that up too.

same here.

 

[sniper]

I won´t. it´s subjective I know. very subjective.
me, I never thought about a "fair" sport. I dont watch the sport because I cheer for a good athlete who beats his evil contenders.
I stopped racing at 16, so I didnt race with juniores or under23, I didnt see any donkey turned into a horse beating me.
maybe that is what makes me unbothered about doping. it´s part of the game, of the circus.
and I watch for entertaiment, I dont put my hopes and energy into a race outcome. when they cross the line I turn off, dont even listen to the interviews.
I like watching races too much, to be bothered about thinking "oh look Astana is attacking, **** Vino´s team who bought Liege I hate them" or "wtf Poels is drinking a coke uphill fresh as a daisy" and so on.
I want to see them race and lose/win, put a newspaper under the jersey and take those alpine downhills, be rattled on the bergs in Flanders, reach the French riviera in March, climb the Poggio, cross the Meuse in Belgium, climb Agnello, Tourmalet, Ventoux, ride in those huge black bulls´s shade in Andalucia. and so on and on and on.

I also understand the ill fate of Landis, Jaksche, Ricco etc. can´t deny that. they been screwed by the system.

but I cant stop watching, be it even for the Gorges du Tarn, or the sound of cobbles, or the echelons...

and about other sport´s corruption, doping etc.. I have no idea of what´s going on in other sports. I watch alpine skiing in winter and ski jumping, havent a clue about soccer or any sport involving balls, I watch the olympics for fun, not aware of what´s going on behind.

I fully respect and understand this stance, as you know.
But wouldn't it then make sense to go further and say: If we are going to accept that it is a circus, then at least legalize the dope.
But that would open a whole new can of worms.

 

[pastronef]

I fully respect and understand this stance, as you know.
But wouldn't it then make sense to go further and say: If we are going to accept that it is a circus, then at least legalize the dope.
But that would open a whole new can of worms.

yes that would a whole new can of worm

about watching: I imagine myself, at home, on the 2nd Sunday of April. there is no way I will turn the tv off because I dont want to see the sponsors, who are part of the omerta, on the riders jerseys. I fukking turn the tv on and watch Roubaix with my heartbeat at 180 bpm when they enter the velodrome.

 

[BullsFan22]

Re:

To directly protest the corporate sponsors would be the only way, to have an influence, I think.
They are effectively buying boatloads of doping drugs by paying the salaries of riders
Most companies will not touch the sport of cycling for advertisement purposes, including forthat reason. But there will always be plenty who calculate that the exposure for their products is worth it. No matter how many endless scandals there are

ebandit wrote:
............go ride ones bike instead................alas! i'm addicted

Amen. I'm going for a three-hour ride today, and will be thinking zero thoughts about World tour cycling during this.
Crisp air of October, beautiful autumn colors, and a tailwind along the shore, carrying me away towards the north.

Luigi

PED use is rampant in the NFL and MLB in the US. Those two sports are still the most advertised and garner the most viewers in the country. I don't know how many fans actually care about the amount of PED's, but I can tell you that the powers that be really don't, and if they don't care and the teams, team doctors, coaches and athletes don't care and nobody gets caught or talks much about it, then I can safely say that the fans won't care much either. Just look at the way whole Manning story was swept aside. Sure, you had some fans being critical of Manning and the whole process, but by and large, once the Broncos won the SB, it was hardly talked about. The guy retired not long after that, and Al Jazeera and the journalists who first broke the story and did the documentary episode and interviews, were quickly shut up and made to apologize. That's the power of the most popular sport in America.

 

[Nomad]

Re: Re:

To directly protest the corporate sponsors would be the only way, to have an influence, I think.
They are effectively buying boatloads of doping drugs by paying the salaries of riders
Most companies will not touch the sport of cycling for advertisement purposes, including forthat reason. But there will always be plenty who calculate that the exposure for their products is worth it. No matter how many endless scandals there are

ebandit wrote:
............go ride ones bike instead................alas! i'm addicted

Amen. I'm going for a three-hour ride today, and will be thinking zero thoughts about World tour cycling during this.
Crisp air of October, beautiful autumn colors, and a tailwind along the shore, carrying me away towards the north.

Luigi

PED use is rampant in the NFL and MLB in the US. Those two sports are still the most advertised and garner the most viewers in the country. I don't know how many fans actually care about the amount of PED's, but I can tell you that the powers that be really don't, and if they don't care and the teams, team doctors, coaches and athletes don't care and nobody gets caught or talks much about it, then I can safely say that the fans won't care much either. Just look at the way whole Manning story was swept aside. Sure, you had some fans being critical of Manning and the whole process, but by and large, once the Broncos won the SB, it was hardly talked about. The guy retired not long after that, and Al Jazeera and the journalists who first broke the story and did the documentary episode and interviews, were quickly shut up and made to apologize. That's the power of the most popular sport in America.

It's not only PED use but illicit drug use (mainly marijuana) and pain killer abuse (rampant with the prevelance of injuries and concussions). The NFL is a religion in the U.S (and this religion is catching on in the UK...as I believe London would like a piece of the action?). I use to go to a few games every year but got tired of the drunks and violence in the stands. Interestingly, the NFL differentiates between illicit drug use that they term as "substance abuse" and performance enhancing drug use when it comes to disciplinary action. The NFL seems to have more leeway with PED use vs substance abuse, as far more players are serving longer suspensions for substance abuse infractions. As far as the fans go; they don't get as ticked-off with PED use as do cycling fans...they seem pretty content with watching 300 lb players bash each other's brains out on Sundays.

 

[Grandillusion]

About 65 or 70 people obsessing at this very moment about their heroes on the Professional Road Racing board. Zero reply to a post on the Wiggins podcast. Seems not a lot has changed in four years. What is it with hardcore cycling fans? Do they really not give a s**t about how filthy the sport is? I find it absolutely astonishing, how can they be like that? It could be the King Sport, instead it's infested with complete knobs, and they don't seem to care. Flippin' weird.

 

[Netserk]

Just because I will always watch cycling (as long as it will remain cycling, so at least a bit true to its roots), no matter how filthy it would be, does not mean that I don't care about the filth, I just care about cycling more. What can I do, I've been bitten by this bug, and I now have a decease I cannot cure (https://youtu.be/zCCryqNdHCA?t=77).

 

[Grandillusion]

Re:

Just because I will always watch cycling (as long as it will remain cycling, so at least a bit true to its roots), no matter how filthy it would be, does not mean that I don't care about the filth, I just care about cycling more. What can I do, I've been bitten by this bug, and I now have a decease I cannot cure (https://youtu.be/zCCryqNdHCA?t=77).[/quote

But if you can't trust the riders themselves then the whole point of the sport is utterly invalidated. You've just proved my point. You don't care about the filth at all really in effect. I find that very very odd. Why aren't you MASSIVELY pi***d off with these people, with the whole rotten system which enables it?
I mean, with enemies like Sapstead who needs friends? Her whole raisin d'etre is to put the fear of God into people, not be an arch enabler. If enough people were angry enough this could be sorted, it's not impossible at all, it just requires the will.

 

[Netserk]

Trust the riders? With what (that they are riders)? I don't get why I would need to trust them. Cycling is still cycling, independent on me trusting the riders.

Parents may care (a lot) about what their children do, but for many parents, the love for their child is (largely) independent on those actions. It really isn't that hard a concept to grasp.

 

[Grandillusion]

Re:

Trust the riders? With what (that they are riders)? I don't get why I would need to trust them. Cycling is still cycling, independent on me trusting the riders.

Parents may care (a lot) about what their children do, but for many parents, the love for their child is (largely) independent on those actions. It really isn't that hard a concept to grasp.

Trust that they're not jacked up to the gills with notoriously effective performance enhancing drugs maybe? What does 'cycling is cycling' mean? It's the sort of thing I've been hearing from Theresa May about Brexit, utterly vapid.
I'm not talking about cycling for recreation, we're discussing competitive professional road racing. It could be a magnificent thing, if only one could believe that what you're seeing is genuine. But it's not, it's a charade. How can you be satisfied with, nay obsessed and excited about, something which isn't real? That's what I mean. And it's possible to cure the sick patient with anger and focus, but the fans can't be bothered because the charade is so wonderfully entertaining.

 

[Netserk]

Isn't real?! Cycling is very real. Perhaps not rosy, but certainly very real. Real life is dirty and corrupt as well. That doesn't excuse cycling, but it is a part of it. It's not about entertainment. Art also speaks to one on a level higher than merely entertainment. In many ways, I think cycling also reveals and shows something about the human condition (in a way that no other sport does, at least as far as I am concerned), which I find highly valuable.

 

[Grandillusion]

Re:

Isn't real?! Cycling is very real. Perhaps not rosy, but certainly very real. Real life is dirty and corrupt as well. That doesn't excuse cycling, but it is a part of it. It's not about entertainment. Art also speaks to one on a level higher than merely entertainment. In many ways, I think cycling also reveals and shows something about the human condition (in a way that no other sport does, at least as far as I am concerned), which I find highly valuable.

So if it's not entertainment, and it's not really sport in any meaningful sense, then what are you left with? The only 'something' the modern sport (since EPO, blood vector doping and all the other genuinely performance enhancing techniques) reveals to me is the grotesque parts of human nature. Armstrong? Where's the inspiration and art in looking at that ugly mug? Wiggins? Art and beauty? Come off it.

 

[The Hegelian]

Corruption, fraud, cheating, money: that's what makes pro cycling good!

It's always been a bit of a circus. Uber capitalism on wheels, with all of its dog-eat-dog madness.

If you're looking for something nice and moral and pure, I suggest you get into gardening.

 

[The Hegelian]

Re:

Isn't real?! Cycling is very real. Perhaps not rosy, but certainly very real. Real life is dirty and corrupt as well. That doesn't excuse cycling, but it is a part of it. It's not about entertainment. Art also speaks to one on a level higher than merely entertainment. In many ways, I think cycling also reveals and shows something about the human condition (in a way that no other sport does, at least as far as I am concerned), which I find highly valuable.

Nicely put.

 

[Grandillusion]

Re:

Corruption, fraud, cheating, money: that's what makes pro cycling good!

It's always been a bit of a circus. Uber capitalism on wheels, with all of its dog-eat-dog madness.

If you're looking for something nice and moral and pure, I suggest you get into gardening.

Christ if that's what you guys think then the sport (I use the term loosely here) truly is doomed. Deeply weird. There's a world of difference between the type of old-school skullduggery and gamesmanship between say Hinault & Lemond - that really is fascinating and engrossing stuff. Give me Coppi & Bartali any day of the week over the hideous charade the modern version of the sport has degenerated into. It's a joke.

I've zero interest in gardening, I prefer fellrunning and getting out on my bike thanks.

 

[The Hegelian]

Re: Re:

Corruption, fraud, cheating, money: that's what makes pro cycling good!

It's always been a bit of a circus. Uber capitalism on wheels, with all of its dog-eat-dog madness.

If you're looking for something nice and moral and pure, I suggest you get into gardening.

Christ if that's what you guys think then the sport (I use the term loosely here) truly is doomed. Deeply weird. There's a world of difference between the type of old-school skullduggery and gamesmanship between say Hinault & Lemond - that really is fascinating and engrossing stuff. Give me Coppi & Bartali any day of the week over the hideous charade the modern version of the sport has degenerated into. It's a joke.

I've zero interest in gardening, I prefer fellrunning and getting out on my bike thanks.

If I could click a button and go back to 1980's sport, I would surely click.

I'm not saying there's no difference between then and now. I'm saying: cycling and the conditions of the world (i.e. European capitalism) always co-emerge. Expecting or desiring anything less is to deny reality. Especially fanciful is the desire to have hyper-capitalistic pro sport somehow demonstrate a moral sphere. Oil and water do not mix.If you want oil, you have to accept its oily characteristics and not hope that it is pure and drinkable.

There is a surreal or joke element to all modern sports now, I agree wholeheartedly. And I agree that it's a degeneration. But I also think that's the case with just about everything now. Just look at politics - it's become an absurd parody of itself. These are simply the times!

 

[Grandillusion]

Re: Re:

Corruption, fraud, cheating, money: that's what makes pro cycling good!

It's always been a bit of a circus. Uber capitalism on wheels, with all of its dog-eat-dog madness.

If you're looking for something nice and moral and pure, I suggest you get into gardening.

Christ if that's what you guys think then the sport (I use the term loosely here) truly is doomed. Deeply weird. There's a world of difference between the type of old-school skullduggery and gamesmanship between say Hinault & Lemond - that really is fascinating and engrossing stuff. Give me Coppi & Bartali any day of the week over the hideous charade the modern version of the sport has degenerated into. It's a joke.

I've zero interest in gardening, I prefer fellrunning and getting out on my bike thanks.

If I could click a button and go back to 1980's sport, I would surely click.

I'm not saying there's no difference between then and now. I'm saying: cycling and the conditions of the world (i.e. European capitalism) always co-emerge. Expecting or desiring anything less is to deny reality. Especially fanciful is the desire to have hyper-capitalistic pro sport somehow demonstrate a moral sphere. Oil and water do not mix.If you want oil, you have to accept its oily characteristics and not hope that it is pure and drinkable.

There is a surreal or joke element to all modern sports now, I agree wholeheartedly. And I agree that it's a degeneration. But I also think that's the case with just about everything now. Just look at politics - it's become an absurd parody of itself. These are simply the times!

But it doesn't have to be this way, that's the whole point of my making these comments (I'm not trying to be an annoying troll by the way). Why settle for this crap? Why aren't you angry? If all the fans like yourself organised and focussed your anger (if it exists) then you could have a beautiful sport again. It'd be awesome! Don't you think it's worth the effort?

 

[Nomad]

Re: Re:

Trust the riders? With what (that they are riders)? I don't get why I would need to trust them. Cycling is still cycling, independent on me trusting the riders.

Parents may care (a lot) about what their children do, but for many parents, the love for their child is (largely) independent on those actions. It really isn't that hard a concept to grasp.

Trust that they're not jacked up to the gills with notoriously effective performance enhancing drugs maybe? What does 'cycling is cycling' mean? It's the sort of thing I've been hearing from Theresa May about Brexit, utterly vapid.
I'm not talking about cycling for recreation, we're discussing competitive professional road racing. It could be a magnificent thing, if only one could believe that what you're seeing is genuine. But it's not, it's a charade. How can you be satisfied with, nay obsessed and excited about, something which isn't real? That's what I mean. And it's possible to cure the sick patient with anger and focus, but the fans can't be bothered because the charade is so wonderfully entertaining.

I hear your frustration, but why pick on a sport that's had a history and culture of doping since the days of "Anquetil's Cocktail." Oxygen-vector doping didn't start nor end with Armstrong either, as some fans still believe this. And if you think this is the "new, clean era" of cycling, that would also be misleading and a classic case of "disinformation." The CIRC report from last year tells us a culture of doping still exists but that it's been primarily pushed underground. It also mentions that doping doctors are still being used as a resource. This may outrage some cycling fans while other fans may not be that surprised and continue to watch and enjoy the sport for what it's worth.

And cycling always seems to be the punching bag when doping is prevelant in other endurance sports, and may be more worse than cycling right now. For example, I follow track & field and road running pretty closely, and I can tell you that over the last several years so many performances are being questioned and the issue of doping is front & center. In Rio, three (3) World records were set in two distance events & one sprint, and many are suspicious of those performances. And when you factor in that the Kenyans, arguably the world's best distance runners, have had over *40* doping positives in the last several years, and the fact that they're not part of the ABP (no WADA-accredited labs are in the area), virtually every impressive performance by them is questioned nowadays (also at Rio a Kenyan coach was sent home for attempting to pass a sample for one of his top runners at a drug control...Lol) And sadly, running just had it's "Festina affair" last June when world-renowned coach Jama Aden (coach of several world class runners & one world record holder) was found with a large cache of EPO & steriods at a training camp in Spain. Imagine that.

This is about as egregious as it gets for competitive T&F and road running. So talk about a charade...doped up Kenyans flying around the track & roads (and we all thought only those dreaded Russians were doping...Lol). So, it isn't just cycling as PEDs are everywhere (there's even a doping XC sking thread with it's many problems). Some people will continue to be entertained...because we don't know who's doped and who isn't, and the reality may be that everyone is using PEDs from to extent or another. It may be as Riis once said back in his day that doping is the "normal preparation for a professional cyclist." Everyone has a choice and no one is being forced to watch or support these sports. If the governing bodies & WADA can't clean it up and ensure a clean field, then that's their problem...not mine. The UCI could implement a lifetime ban for a first offense (i.e., zero tolerance). They could eliminate these ridiculous TUEs that they know are being used for the primary purpose of performance enhancement. The IOC could have banned the Kenyans from Rio for their doping history and non-compliance with WADA. None of this is occurring...why? Perhaps frustrated and angry fans should blame the hierarchy. Even the Grand old game of golf has a doping problem that surpasses cycling. Golf? Can't be...now that's funny:

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/golf/golf-surpasses-cycling-and-athletics-for-drug-findings-1.2301094

 

[Rob27172]

I am afraid you might as well have a poll that reads

Humans Cheat - Boycott being human
Yes
No

From the very first Tour de France there has been cheating, there has been murder and payments made to thugs to beat up riders, Riders using trains to cut stages, etc, etc, etc, So now it is PED use whats the difference? it's still cheating.

Races are fixed, soccer matches are fixed, Cricket matches are fixed, Horse racing has been fixed since the earliest days of men riding horses.
Drugs are in every sport on the planet, Running, NFL, NBA, NHL, Track and field, Weight lifting, Judo, Golf, Rowing, Tennis. So what? boycott all sport?

Children cheat at sports, adults cheat at sports, it is built within the human nature to attempt to win, whether we like it or not humans are programmed to do three things, Procreate, fight, win. To win is to be the alpha and to be able to breed and make sure the succession is continued. From the dawn of time winning has been paramount to humans. We fight to win the right to procreate, just like every other animal.

And like animals we have our packs, tribes, societies. whatever you want to call them and like animals we will fight to defend our pack from others. So we will follow our pack, team, college, country vociferously and ferociously and will attack those who oppose us. Either in competition or in discussions about the relevant pros and cons of our chosen belief system.

We believe in our athlete or team or sport so we will fight to ignore all reasonable proof that something shows us that our belief might be misplaced. We will look for reasons to argue against why our belief might be tarnished as we will see it as a reflection on our judgment, our pack and by extension on us.

If you want to boycott something because it is poor or shoddy or corrupt or capitalist and no longer pure. Look at your politics, the company you work for, your religion, your nation. They are all based upon money and power and winning if you get down to the basics.

So why single out sport and why single out cycling. Life is what it is, accept it and try to make the world a better place by being in it. But if you want to try to change human nature, that is a struggle i think is beyond any of us.

 

[The Hegelian]

Re: Re:

Corruption, fraud, cheating, money: that's what makes pro cycling good!

It's always been a bit of a circus. Uber capitalism on wheels, with all of its dog-eat-dog madness.

If you're looking for something nice and moral and pure, I suggest you get into gardening.

Christ if that's what you guys think then the sport (I use the term loosely here) truly is doomed. Deeply weird. There's a world of difference between the type of old-school skullduggery and gamesmanship between say Hinault & Lemond - that really is fascinating and engrossing stuff. Give me Coppi & Bartali any day of the week over the hideous charade the modern version of the sport has degenerated into. It's a joke.

I've zero interest in gardening, I prefer fellrunning and getting out on my bike thanks.

If I could click a button and go back to 1980's sport, I would surely click.

I'm not saying there's no difference between then and now. I'm saying: cycling and the conditions of the world (i.e. European capitalism) always co-emerge. Expecting or desiring anything less is to deny reality. Especially fanciful is the desire to have hyper-capitalistic pro sport somehow demonstrate a moral sphere. Oil and water do not mix.If you want oil, you have to accept its oily characteristics and not hope that it is pure and drinkable.

There is a surreal or joke element to all modern sports now, I agree wholeheartedly. And I agree that it's a degeneration. But I also think that's the case with just about everything now. Just look at politics - it's become an absurd parody of itself. These are simply the times!

But it doesn't have to be this way, that's the whole point of my making these comments (I'm not trying to be an annoying troll by the way). Why settle for this crap? Why aren't you angry? If all the fans like yourself organised and focussed your anger (if it exists) then you could have a beautiful sport again. It'd be awesome! Don't you think it's worth the effort?

I don' think you're trolling. I hear where you're coming from.

The point I'm making is that the problem is really far bigger than cycling or even just pro-sport. Would I like a more just, more moral, more beautiful political-economic world?

Yes.

Good. Then how do we get that?

Err.....hmmm.....do you have any good ideas?

I agree that it's a good start to want it. And it's helpful to criticize what needs to be criticized. But then, one also needs to see clearly how things actually are, and not simply fantasize that they are something better.

 

[sniper]

Re:

I am afraid you might as well have a poll that reads

Humans Cheat - Boycott being human
...

Some fair points.

but I do not quite agree.
Imo, it's about the sheer concentration of fraud, cheating, and corruption in pro-sport.
Sure, it happens everywhere in all sections of society, but not at such a high density as in present day pro-sport.

It's really a kind of maffia, there's no better way to describe it.
And why would we support that.