Storing samples for later evaluation

[python]

2 points in the velonation article caught my attention - jv's contract with catlin allowing to tests 24/7 and one instance of catlin actually testing at 11 pm.

comments:

11 pm is only 1 hour past the uci cutoff. i could grudgingly buy that extension.
im curious, could armstrong dismiss catlin b/c he would be under a threat of testing 24/7 ?

a small ot. i read some place that catlin also stores sample for posterior testing. the just released wada report makes it clear that the uci does not. that's a big deterrence weapon ignored. (he's your answer why texas tweets 'go ahead and test for plasticizers)

 

[Benotti69]

.....

a small ot. i read some place that catlin also stores sample for posterior testing. the just released wada report makes it clear that the uci does not. that's a big deterrence weapon ignored. (he's your answer why texas tweets 'go ahead and test for plasticizers)

the uci does not...how did they test Unballer's samples from '99?

 

[python]

the uci does not...how did they test Unballer's samples from '99?

that was a research project geared to improve the epo tests sponsored by the lab itself and allowed by wada. the uci's had nothing to do with it except it released doping control forms to rassiot that allowed to link texas to his anonymous samples.

 

[Benotti69]

that was a research project geared to improve the epo tests sponsored by the lab itself and allowed by wada. the uci's had nothing to do with it except it released doping control forms to rassiot that allowed to link texas to his anonymous samples.

does that mean there are none of uniballer's samples around to test?

 

[python]

does that mean there are none of uniballer's samples around to test?

good question. as far as i read the uci and wada code, the labs are only required to keep samples for 3 months. it does not mean that the labs on their own initiative haven't stored them for future research.

the key here is that wada allows and recommends long-term sample storage but the uci does not have a rule in place routinely sanctioning riders based on retroactive testing. though dekker's case seems to suggest they can do it when they're pissed at someone.

 

[Benotti69]

good question. as far as i read the uci and wada code, the labs are only required to keep samples for 3 months. it does not mean that the labs on their own initiative haven't stored them for future research.

the key here is that wada allows and recommends long-term sample storage but the uci does not have a rule in place routinely sanctioning riders based on retroactive testing. though dekker's case seems to suggest they can do it when they're pissed at someone.

Would it be possible for someone unbeknownst to uci to have saved and stored LA's samples for future testing believing they would be required, eg Bodry? or would he not know whose samples were liestrongs?

 

[python]

Would it be possible for someone unbeknownst to uci to have saved and stored LA's samples for future testing believing they would be required, eg Bodry? or would he not know whose samples were liestrongs?

if any lab targeted texas samples for long term storage they'd be breaking the wada code. it's strictly a no-no and is rooted in the ethics and integrity required of the wada accredited lab. this does not mean that the frozen texas piss is not sitting in some fridge. identifying it and linking to texas would be a task primarily dependent on the uci cooperation which we know isn't coming. it would a different matter in america since usada is more than willing and novi could subpoena anything he wants. but again, it's a chance game that would take time, money and energy. in addition, blood samples are almost certainly not stored because there is a technological hurdle the wada labs typically don't have the money to overcome except in some limited cases.

 

[Barrus]

People, shall we go back to the original topic and leave Armstrong out of this.
Also I think that the storing and retesting of samples and the protocols surrounding it do warrant a thread of its own and should not be further discussed in this thread, as much discussion can be started about this

 

[python]

People, shall we go back to the original topic and leave Armstrong out of this.
Also I think that the storing and retesting of samples and the protocols surrounding it do warrant a thread of its own and should not be further discussed in this thread, as much discussion can be started about this

i agree, could you transfer those posts in a separate thread. it would be an interesting subject.

 

[Benotti69]

if any lab targeted texas samples for long term storage they'd be breaking the wada code. it's strictly a no-no and is rooted in the ethics and integrity required of the wada accredited lab. this does not mean that the frozen texas piss is not sitting in some fridge. identifying it and linking to texas would be a task primarily dependent on the uci cooperation which we know isn't coming. it would a different matter in america since usada is more than willing and novi could subpoena anything he wants. but again, it's a chance game that would take time, money and energy. in addition, blood samples are almost certainly not stored because there is a technological hurdle the wada labs typically don't have the money to overcome except in some limited cases.

Cheers Python.

Back on topic.

 

[Barrus]

After some debate and some consideration from my part, I do decide to move the posts and open a new thread. This thread will be concerned with the general policies of storing samples for later retesting and issues that are linked with this.

HOWEVER, do understand that this thread is not a debate on the '99 samples of LA, their outcome and their legitimacy. You can mention it in passing, but please, do not start an entire discussion about it. We do not need to rehash this again in this thread. DO consider this a warning

 

[scribe]

Is there a link to the Velonation article? I am sure they'd appreciate it, and it makes it easier for the discussion if it were included.

 

[Benotti69]

Is it a case of good housekeeping by the uci to not wanting 'old' samples stored to learn from and to save itself from scandal, although they aare failing miserably.

do other sports 'store' samples for later testing? I imagine there are none due to the self protection to scandal and embarrassment that the uci seems immune too.

 

[Barrus]

The velonation article:
http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/6206/Vaughters-backs-late-night-testing-says-it-can-help-combat-microdosing.aspx

 

[python]

Is it a case of good housekeeping by the uci to not wanting 'old' samples stored to learn from and to save itself from scandal, although they aare failing miserably.

do other sports 'store' samples for later testing? I imagine there are none due to the self protection to scandal and embarrassment that the uci seems immune too.

don't know if any international federation has a specific rule. will have to check around. but the ioc, for sure does - remember, the 2008 games, they retested all samples for cera almost a year after the games and eventually busted 5 or 6 athletes.

 

[python]

Is it a case of good housekeeping by the uci to not wanting 'old' samples stored to learn from and to save itself from scandal, although they aare failing miserably.

do other sports 'store' samples for later testing? I imagine there are none due to the self protection to scandal and embarrassment that the uci seems immune too.

if you read the wada report, they are very specific in their recommendations - focus on storing samples of high risk riders rather than
massive clogging of lab fridges. no doubt the uci knew who were the high risk riders but it seems they were always selective who they'd go after. even if some stored sample from the years past turned up positive. as the current contador case indicates, they could always either dismiss it or pursue depending on who that was, in the 'results management' or mismanagement if you will.

 

[Kodiak]

To the post about other sports doing it. I doubt it as there are "Players" Unions in most prosports that Cycling just doesn't have. I doubt any Union's would allow that to happen. Storing and retroactive testing won't catch on IMO due to cost versus reward. They are having a hard enough time trying to keep up with the dopers as it is. Going back to test at a later date will do nothing to stop it going on now. Finding someone on the inside and turning a few informants would go much further.

 

[Benotti69]

To the post about other sports doing it. I doubt it as there are "Players" Unions in most prosports that Cycling just doesn't have. I doubt any Union's would allow that to happen. Storing and retroactive testing won't catch on IMO due to cost versus reward. They are having a hard enough time trying to keep up with the dopers as it is. Going back to test at a later date will do nothing to stop it going on now. Finding someone on the inside and turning a few informants would go much further.

yes and no. going back and testing past samples and tarnishing a career should be incentive enough not to dope especially with a big fine. But without retroactive testing means most sports are a step ahead and stay ahead without the retroactive testing.

 

[Kodiak]

I like Pat MCFraud's comments today about going for 4 year bans. That may have a bigger impact if they can make it stick. AC's drama right now isn't looking to good though. They are spending quite a bit of time trying to find out how it got into his system instead of just following the rule of law for having a banned substance in his system period. If there were more money in the system for the retroactive testing then that would be great but as it is they are not testing enough riders frequently enough. Taking assets away from an already stretched system won't help.

 

[Benotti69]

I like Pat MCFraud's comments today about going for 4 year bans. That may have a bigger impact if they can make it stick. AC's drama right now isn't looking to good though. They are spending quite a bit of time trying to find out how it got into his system instead of just following the rule of law for having a banned substance in his system period. If there were more money in the system for the retroactive testing then that would be great but as it is they are not testing enough riders frequently enough. Taking assets away from an already stretched system won't help.

I wonder if AC wont pay up any dosh for a shortened sentence and the loss of his TdF so the McFraudster is gonna hang him out to dry

 

[Kodiak]

I wonder if AC wont pay up any dosh for a shortened sentence and the loss of his TdF so the McFraudster is gonna hang him out to dry

it would be the end of any remaining credibility the UCI has if that were to get out. There would have to be quite a few degrees of separation between those two for that to happen.

 

[Benotti69]

it would be the end of any remaining credibility the UCI has if that were to get out. There would have to be quite a few degrees of separation between those two for that to happen.

uci under McFraud has in my opinion no credibility, never mind their 'business' with armstrong, this year alone has shot the credibility of the uci to less than shreds...

 

[fatandfast]

If there was a professional cyclists union and there is not. The riders should demand that all samples be destroyed after 3 years or be donated to science or vampires or urine drinkers. Lemond yelling about Lance is BS..If there is some old Greg gravy laying around lets test it..anything they can find. Maybe a sample from Zabel or Olaf Ludwig for good measure. Have a standard..not some plasticizer for one guy and not everybody else..or really turn up the machine for some little Spanish dwarf to see what shows up.and then have a press release saying we found it but don't know what to do..simply no unity.union and certainly no professionalism. One guy wrote that he broke the story on some case. All info should becoming from the UCI not just any profiteer lab worker or tiny fed worker who gets CC'd on an email. Old blood or urine is only kept by really strange people... flush out what you got and start over with something reasonable. Armstrong's lawyer is going to call in a cleaning lady from 8 years ago that will claims she used to take smoke breaks in the storage room where the samples are kept. With no sinister motive storing stuff this long is risky..Had Armstrong flamed out his samples and their custody wouldn't have cost cycling so dearly. If he just would have stopped winning after crushing Lemond's records or given Landis that no show job he wanted or donated all his money..really all of it to cancer. It's all Lance's fault..Coppi never had these problems..oh yea that Pope thing

 

[Benotti69]

If there was a professional cyclists union and there is not. The riders should demand that all samples be destroyed after 3 years or be donated to science or vampires or urine drinkers. Lemond yelling about Lance is BS..If there is some old Greg gravy laying around lets test it..anything they can find. Maybe a sample from Zabel or Olaf Ludwig for good measure. Have a standard..not some plasticizer for one guy and not everybody else..or really turn up the machine for some little Spanish dwarf to see what shows up.and then have a press release saying we found it but don't know what to do..simply no unity.union and certainly no professionalism. One guy wrote that he broke the story on some case. All info should becoming from the UCI not just any profiteer lab worker or tiny fed worker who gets CC'd on an email. Old blood or urine is only kept by really strange people... flush out what you got and start over with something reasonable. Armstrong's lawyer is going to call in a cleaning lady from 8 years ago that will claims she used to take smoke breaks in the storage room where the samples are kept. With no sinister motive storing stuff this long is risky..Had Armstrong flamed out his samples and their custody wouldn't have cost cycling so dearly. If he just would have stopped winning after crushing Lemond's records or given Landis that no show job he wanted or donated all his money..really all of it to cancer. It's all Lance's fault..Coppi never had these problems..oh yea that Pope thing

and breath

if a sport is dirty and it has no wish to get clean from the people involved in that sport then something has to be done to 'guide' it into wanting be clean. Never mind that doping is illegal. Storing samples is a possible part of the 'guide'

 

[Kodiak]

Considering I'm sitting in the hospital waiting on the birth of our next child I have nothing better to do for the time being other than sit here and trade back and forth. I would be happy as hell to just see LA and the rest of the dopers race off a cliff to never appear again but that won't happen. I'd love to see a clean sport but I doubt we ever will again. I'll still watch the race results but not the races I used to.