Teams & Riders Tadej Pogačar discussion thread

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I think Tadej is mainly just tired and clearly also looks he could use a break,mentally which is understandably.

I am sad not to see him at La Vuelta but I think it would be too much.

I have a big suspicion we will see another kind of Pogacar headline in the 4 weeks he is nor racing…
I think it is almost time to make Urška a Pogačar:cool:

Apparently it is meant to be bad luck if you marry more than one year after engagement in Slovenia and well it is almost that time…
 
Concerning Pogi not doing the Vuelta..
On top of this TdF being particularly grueling.
I think it's also possible that right now they're trying to analyze everything they did during the TdF, and trying to figure out what needs to be done/removed/added to be better next year.
They're probably doing a lot of introspection after the loss, and so they just don't want to rush into an other GT.
 
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"The 2nd place of @TamauPogi to #TDF2022 continues to make noise. We used @Matxin_ , "the technician of the technicians" of @TeamEmiratesUAE , to understand what "went wrong", how the Slovenian reacted and to make a thorough analysis with a cold head."

Article in Italian:
 
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"The 2nd place of @TamauPogi to #TDF2022 continues to make noise. We used @Matxin_ , "the technician of the technicians" of @TeamEmiratesUAE , to understand what "went wrong", how the Slovenian reacted and to make a thorough analysis with a cold head."

Article in Italian:
Oi, Matxin is not one I can comment much on this subforum, but he's a piece of work, let's just say that. He seems mighty convinced that UAE were on equal if not better footing than Jumbo; to me this seems like PR (not calling out the team in public) or willful ignorance.
 
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Oi, Matxin is not one I can comment much on this subforum, but he's a piece of work, let's just say that. He seems mighty convinced that UAE were on equal if not better footing than Jumbo; to me this seems like PR (not calling out the team in public) or willful ignorance.
Oi, Matxin is not one I can comment much on this subforum, but he's a piece of work, let's just say that. He seems mighty convinced that UAE were on equal if not better footing than Jumbo; to me this seems like PR (not calling out the team in public) or willful ignorance.
I don't think it's either, it's just he doesn't want to say that the riders with whom he likes a lot and train are less talented... motivation is really important.
 
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I kinda expected he won't be in top form on today's classic but to be dropped 60km from finish line and have DNF?

Interesting how things change in a week and how punishing the three week grand tour actually is.
In my own experience taking a week off can really mess with things when coming off high volume/intensity, kind of like how they don’t like to purely rest on their rest days in the tour. But it still is surprising he was this off.
 
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I am shocked he showed up to race this. I also think it's time for me to adjust my expectations for Pog. I was a pretty early fan of Pog's and I'll admit I bought hook, line and sinker into the Pogacar mania. I just believed in his ability to do things no pro outside of the Cannibal should be able to do.

I am a pretty objective person but it got so bad that I honestly believed Pog would still win the Tour by a minute or two going into Stage 17. I thought he'd just runaway from Viney on the penultimate climb of Stage 17. I'd thought he'd put 5 minutes into him that stage, despite only having 3 teammates and no indication that he could break Viney. I also thought he'd show up today and beat fresh legs like Remco.

So I guess I am starting to face reality that Pog is not the new cannibal that I thought he is. I still think he's an immense talent, possibly the best in the peloton but not the super all time great I thought he was. I guess I am still stunned by Vingegaard's Tour performance. I have just never seen a guy come from nowhere 3 years ago to beating someone like Pog by 3-4 minutes and the others by 8-25 minutes like that. Honestly, a few years ago, what was Vingegaard winning? Even in March/ April, Pog rode by Vingegaard like he was sitting still. You watch the Tour and you think, how will Pog ever beat Vingegaard--- a rider who came from virtual obscurity a few years ago.

I am still just trying to figure out what happened during those 3 weeks in France because I've been following this sport since the late 90's and I've never seen anything like Vingegaard's Tour. Vingegaard never seemed even close to having a bad day. Who doesn't have a bad day in a 3 week bike race? Even Pog had a bad day on Mont Ventoux. It'll be an interesting few years in the Tour because I have no idea how Pog beats the Danish Machine. Then again, I feel silly talking up a rider who at age 25 just won his major bike race.
 
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I am shocked he showed up to race this. I also think it's time for me to adjust my expectations for Pog. I was a pretty early fan of Pog's and I'll admit I bought hook, line and sinker into the Pogacar mania. I just believed in his ability to do things no pro outside of the Cannibal should be able to do.

I am a pretty objective person but it got so bad that I honestly believed Pog would still win the Tour by a minute or two going into Stage 17. I thought he'd just runaway from Viney on the penultimate climb of Stage 17. I'd thought he'd put 5 minutes into him that stage, despite only having 3 teammates and no indication that he could break Viney. I also thought he'd show up today and beat fresh legs like Remco.

So I guess I am starting to face reality that Pog is not the new cannibal that I thought he is. I still think he's an immense talent, possibly the best in the peloton but not the super all time great I thought he was. I guess I am still stunned by Vingegaard's Tour performance. I have just never seen a guy come from nowhere 3 years ago to beating someone like Pog by 3-4 minutes and the others by 8-25 minutes like that. Honestly, a few years ago, what was Vingegaard winning? Even in March/ April, Pog rode by Vingegaard like he was sitting still. You watch the Tour and you think, how will Pog ever beat Vingegaard--- a rider who came from virtual obscurity a few years ago.

I am still just trying to figure out what happened during those 3 weeks in France because I've been following this sport since the late 90's and I've never seen anything like Vingegaard's Tour. Vingegaard never seemed even close to having a bad day. Who doesn't have a bad day in a 3 week bike race? Even Pog had a bad day on Mont Ventoux. It'll be an interesting few years in the Tour because I have no idea how Pog beats the Danish Machine. Then again, I feel silly talking up a rider who at age 25 just won his major bike race.
interesting post.

  1. i think it may help to realize how much specific skills/talents and race circumstances play into modern cycling in particular. in other words one rider may climb better on a 20-30 minute climb while another may do better on a 30-40 minute climb. i believe that may be one of the differences between these two and why the two places Vingo dropped Pog were on the longer climbs.
  2. i also think pog lost 3 1/2 minutes on Granon due largely to hunger knock - because he stupidly (imo) chased after rog (i think he literally didn't want rog to beat him more than he minded losing the TDF). and he lost a minute on hautacam largely because he had attacked so many times that day and all the days before, while Vingo only had to mark those attacks. He lost seconds in the ITT because it was at the end of the TDF after he had completely spent himself trying and failing to dislodge vingo.
  3. Three main things could have altered the outcome in pog's favor:
    1. No WvA to drag vingo back to just 14 seconds on the cobbles stage.
    2. An ITT in the first ten days when a fresh pog would have put more time into vingo, altering all tactics from then on.
    3. Not chasing rog on stage 11 (having and taking the time to refuel better)
  4. In terms of his perf today, I would not be too concerned. He was already no longer the pog we knew in the last week of the TDF - precisely because he had spent so much energy attacking. Also, you have to realize that in this day of altitude camps, their effect does not last forever, so by the time the TDF ends, racers are no longer benefitting from that training as well as being forced to recover daily from three weeks of efforts. Sure they can keep the expected hierarchy in the third week, because they are all competing against each other, with equal wear and tear and diminishing returns on any altitude camps they did preceding the race. Suddenly today they are up against fresh riders, some of whom are literally coming from altitude. Now this is by no means an exact science. Some riders will come out of GT apparently better (Mollema anyone?) while some coming off altitude camp sometimes take a little while to feel the benefits. remco, based off of only today and norway appears to come off of altitude training like gangbusters. the question is whether the benefits he gets drop off fairly quickly...
  5. Pog is still likely the best rider of his generation and likely the best since merckx. merckx was getting trounced by Ocana in 1971 (before the latter's crash). I mean, trounced by minutes and minutes. He was headed to finishing second after two wins. Merckx won 50+ wins in 1972, so pog's defeat should be put in perspective.
 
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Interesting response---thanks!

1) I totally understand about different skill set and different climbs. I also understand the narrative that Vingegaard is better on longer climbs. However, on the Super Planche (everyone's favorite climb), not exactly an 18 K HC climb and Ving was about to drop Pog if that climb was 500 meters longer.

2) I am skeptical about how much chasing down Rog actually did Pog in. However, I do buy that Pog went hunger flat on Granon. Pog is not 3.5 minutes worse than even a super Vingegaard...
So fair point there.

3) WVA definitely played a part, especially on the cobbled stage. However this thing was decided in the mountains and I am not sure that Vingegaard needed Wout in the mountains. If the race was closer and if Vingegaard was less of a machine, than Wout definitely would have been the difference maker.

4) Great points on Ocana and Merckx.

5) We don't know, what we don't know. Was it the heat? Was Pog sick with what was going around UAE? Did he get his training wrong for any number of reasons? We'll never know because it's grand tour racing.

I am still just dumbfounded by the extent and ease of Vingegaard's win.
 
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  1. i also think pog lost 3 1/2 minutes on Granon due largely to hunger knock - because he stupidly (imo) chased after rog (i think he literally didn't want rog to beat him more than he minded losing the TDF). and he lost a minute on hautacam largely because he had attacked so many times that day and all the days before, while Vingo only had to mark those attacks. He lost seconds in the ITT because it was at the end of the TDF after he had completely spent himself trying and failing to dislodge vingo.
  2. Three main things could have altered the outcome in pog's favor:
    1. No WvA to drag vingo back to just 14 seconds on the cobbles stage.
    2. An ITT in the first ten days when a fresh pog would have put more time into vingo, altering all tactics from then on.
    3. Not chasing rog on stage 11 (having and taking the time to refuel better)
Good points there. I agree that JV performance on the cobbles stage and Granon stages were decisive and Pog probably also had an energetic crisis on top of that (his fault, no doubt)
Also Pogacar wasted a lot of energy on the cobbles for a very small profit on Vinge (who spent more time on wheels of mighty Wout). Exchange the teams and Pog + WVA duo crushes other GC guys there.

I believe that without the two best riders in the world (other than Pog) working for Vinge we would have a tight contest but it would have been Vinge forced to attack in the mountains (not vice versa), which changes a lot regarding who has a comfort of sitting on the wheel.
 
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In my own experience taking a week off can really mess with things when coming off high volume/intensity, kind of like how they don’t like to purely rest on their rest days in the tour. But it still is surprising he was this off.
I know. But I at least expected he would be able to follow peloton until initial attack. Do not see the reason to attend the classics if you are not in racing form. But I guess he realised that after 140km of racing :/
 
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I think Pog got outdoped. Vingegaard was much stronger this Tour and Pog never took more than bonus seconds or a handful of seconds on any stage, then got dropped every time V tried. I agree with others that stage 11 could’ve been handled better but I think it’s missing the forest for the trees, he simply wasn’t going to win this year. They were still both by far the strongest in the race though.

You are right Pog was dropping him in earlier races this year and I think it comes down to doping cycles, i.e V was probably storing BBs at the time or not on the special stuff yet. History is the only thing we have to work with and V has historically been less strong and less consistent despite being older and still having a similar number of seasons as Pog, even if he did start later. Then he is clearly superior at the Tour. That’s not to say he’s more to blame per se, but it seems he has a better program and the lack of even a single off day is another sign of that. I don’t expect anything to change any time soon, except maybe a bad day, but I wouldn’t even be surprised if he starts out sprinting Pogacar on the uphill finishes given he’s already improved a lot at that.

This sport seems to be shuffling top riders faster than ever lately and I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect any single rider to be the best for more than a year or so before some random wild card becoming top dog. We already may have the next Vingegaard in the peloton, just scroll down to 40th place on random stage races and pick with your eyes closed.
Wtf?
 
Good points there. I agree that JV performance on the cobbles stage and Granon stages were decisive and Pog probably also had an energetic crisis on top of that (his fault, no doubt)
Also Pogacar wasted a lot of energy on the cobbles for a very small profit on Vinge (who spent more time on wheels of mighty Wout). Exchange the teams and Pog + WVA duo crushes other GC guys there.

I believe that without the two best riders in the world (other than Pog) working for Vinge we would have a tight contest but it would have been Vinge forced to attack in the mountains (not vice versa), which changes a lot regarding who has a comfort of sitting on the wheel.
I believe that preparation and team tactics (based on detailed data analysis) is what helped JV to have such a great performance. From his performance last year, it was clear that the best Vingegaard could match Pog in the high mountains so they maximised his form prior the race to be ready for that battle. JV's performance was magnified by the fact that Pog didn't have a great preparation at all and wasted his energy in the first half of the race for marginal gains while in the second half of the race the lack of UAE's ability to support and guide him was apparent and was definitely partly due to bad team tactics and not only due to the loss of teammates. For example, I think it was a mistake to go all out with the team on the penultimate mountain stage. The performance of Bjerg and McNulty was superb but you know that the day after Pog would be isolated. Obviously, WVA played a major role in the great execution of JV's plan although I don't think his exceptional performance in the mountains is what mattered. His main contribution was the cobble stage where JV had all the reason to expect him to excel.
 
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I believe that preparation and team tactics (based on detailed data analysis) is what helped JV to have such a great performance. From his performance last year, it was clear that the best Vingegaard could match Pog in the high mountains so they maximised his form prior the race to be ready for that battle. JV's performance was magnified by the fact that Pog didn't have a great preparation at all and wasted his energy in the first half of the race for marginal gains while in the second half of the race the lack of UAE's ability to support and guide him was apparent and was definitely partly due to bad team tactics and not only due to the loss of teammates. For example, I think it was a mistake to go all out with the team on the penultimate mountain stage. The performance of Bjerg and McNulty was superb but you know that the day after Pog would be isolated. Obviously, WVA played a major role in the great execution of JV's plan although I don't think his exceptional performance in the mountains is what mattered. His main contribution was the cobble stage where JV had all the reason to expect him to excel.
I would put cobbles attack as "justifiable". If JV wasn't so strong and without WVA pulling the remaining of peloton behind him, margin would be a lot, lot more than 13 seconds. He had to try this one in my books because the opportunity was there.

With other sprints to the line, even when bonus seconds were not available. I said to myself is he that strong or wants some kind of mental edge over Vingo.

It almost worked I guess (if this was a plan) since Vingo did not want to attack on last climb in stage 11. As he said in interview he was reluctant and team car encouraged him to attack.
 
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UAE's tactics on stage 17 were interesting. You definitely make the case for why they should have waited for stage 18. However, the reality is, they had Vine right where they wanted him--isolated on the second to last climb of the day. All Pog had to do was put in a Pog style attack and Ving loses 5 minutes on the stage and UAE just won the Tour with 4 riders. Add in the fact that Ving was due for a bad day and I think the tactics made sense. I remember watching it at the time thinking to myself, wow, Pog is going to do this.

Of course we know how it all played out, Ving was a machine, didn't have a bad day and almost won the stage anyway until Pog out sprinted him.

One point of contention---I don't necessary buy that Ving showed in 21 that he was better than Pog in the high mountains. Let's not forget that Pog put a minute and a half into Ving on stage 8 of the 21 Tour (after it was clear Ving was leading Jumbo) and he put 32 seconds into Ving on stage 9 a day later. Let's also not forget Pog put over a minute into Ving in this year's Tirreno-Adriatico. Of course, all 3 of those days were cool/ wet.

Again, dumbstruck by what happened at the 22 Tour but I suspect the weather played a big part.
 
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