Teams & Riders Tadej Pogačar discussion thread

[QueenStagiaire]

Riding 6.809,2 km and winning the Giro-Tour double?

Less impressive than 7491.3 km, 7636.6 km or 8105.2 km respectively to win Giro-Tour doubles

 

[SHAD0W93]

I find it extremely disrespectful to the other riders from that era as well as Merckx to just go with the narrative that Merckx was the only good rider against farmers.

I’ve never posted he’s riding against farmers, absolutely Merckx was head and shoulders over the others before and after that competed in everything. But now Pogacar is doing the same thing as those in the past while in a specialized era. He definitely needs more seasons like this though to firmly stand or surpass Merckx.

I agree,
in a way my comment, besides being a joke, was also meant to address the incomparability of a lot of these achievements.

When it comes to Marino and Mohomes e.g., the way you frame it Marino sounds more impressive, but than again as I don't know *** about american football (except accasionally watching a bit of the post season), I e.g. have no idea what the context of Marinos passing yards was. What were his teams doing, maybe they exploited something that made passing for them relatively easy in the context of the defenses those years e.g. ? I am interested now as this sounds to be an interesting case for comparison.

View: https://youtu.be/5bn-jMSmhhE?si=J85xd4JfICZZjka5


Video was made 5 years ago so doesn’t have all of Mahomes career. Marino was the first quarterback to reach 5000 yards in 1984 and the only one until 2008, while it took till 2011 for someone to break Marino’s yard record.

List of NFL quarterbacks with 5,000 passing yards in a season - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

There’s a lot of factors that go into it; offensive game plan, rules, receivers, defenses, and if you pat your stats against bad teams or in garbage time (when your team is getting beat by multiple scores and it’s late in the game so defenses play soft coverage that allows you to get a lot of yards). But Marino was first in a time that it was unheard of. Now quarterbacks are talked down on if they don’t reach 4-5k.

 

[Jan the Man]

I find it extremely disrespectful to the other riders from that era as well as Merckx to just go with the narrative that Merckx was the only good rider against farmers.

It is absurd to suggest Merckx raced against farmers.

It is however true that cycling was less ‘specialised’ and less global in the 70s and therefore the depth and level of competition is clearly relevant if one subjectively tries to compare across generations- which i am not a big fan of. There were also races which have changed in significance - so FW was more important in the 70s than now and a win in GP Nations was big in the 70s whereas winning it from the 90s onwards less so, there are other races now which are WT level which did not exist in the 70s ie these Canadian races.

In any event if Pog won Worlds and Lombardia (which given the level of competition I think is unlikely but of course given early season form possible) there is a strong argument to say that this would then objectively constitute the best season ever.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

I find it extremely disrespectful to the other riders from that era as well as Merckx to just go with the narrative that Merckx was the only good rider against farmers.

Some say Teddy wins races against farmers so maybe it wasn't different with Eddy

 

[Tanakka]

Lequack This is priceless! The image sums up perfectly what most of us think is happening in the UAE team.

I read that mou is back on "X". Hope someone with an account can keep us updated on what he is saying.

His two most recent tweets are indeed about Ayuso:

mou - @mou55981652
I want to see the reaction of Ayuso when DS shouts in his ear "forward Juan, start pulling" and Wellens and Majka when they start calling Ayuso turn after he ignores DS's orders and after that Gianneti call to Matxin to explain what the *** is going on
8:38 PM · 12 set 2024

mou - @mou55981652
Imagine how much of a fool you must be to think that you are 50:50 with Pog in terms of talent, and believe me that Ayuso thinks at this moment that his peek is bigger than Pog,boy lives in some parallel world, he thinks he is acting in the Avengers, captain America(Spain)
11:16 PM · 12 set 2024

 

[scribers]

I find it extremely disrespectful to the other riders from that era as well as Merckx to just go with the narrative that Merckx was the only good rider against farmers.

No one is going to fight much on the legend of Merckx. It’s a fun comparison but impossible one too, as these discussions always seem to resolve to. We can at least agree at the difficulty pog might experience even contesting a similar calendar to Merckx in today’s peloton

 

[scribers]

Imagine for a moment if mou’s assessments of Ayuso are 100% accurate. Would you want to share space at all with Ayuso? I’d be seriously afraid of sabotage if im pogi. Wouldn’t want to be at any race with him though or training situations.

 

[EddyMazzoleni]

But isn't it almost a bit too much on the nose?

It could be fun if they staged the photo, and I don't see the point in publishing it if it wasn't a joke.

The guy in the back pointing emphatically at Ayuso makes me think that it's a bit tongue in cheeck. If not it's just straight up hilarious.

 

[EddyMazzoleni]

It is absurd to suggest Merckx raced against farmers.

It is however true that cycling was less ‘specialised’ and less global in the 70s and therefore the depth and level of competition is clearly relevant if one subjectively tries to compare across generations- which i am not a big fan of. There were also races which have changed in significance - so FW was more important in the 70s than now and a win in GP Nations was big in the 70s whereas winning it from the 90s onwards less so, there are other races now which are WT level which did not exist in the 70s ie these Canadian races.

In any event if Pog won Worlds and Lombardia (which given the level of competition I think is unlikely but of course given early season form possible) there is a strong argument to say that this would then objectively constitute the best season ever.

It's also true that we are in the age of superteams, and riders, no matter how talented they are, have little chance of winning big races if thay aren't in the top 5/6 teams. Look at the difference in performance of Jorgensonn between this season and when he was at Movistar. I think both Merckx era and todays are not the most competitive when it comes to GTs, altough of course both faced some really good riders, but in small number

 

[bNator]

It's also true that we are in the age of superteams, and riders, no matter how talented they are, have little chance of winning big races if thay aren't in the top 5/6 teams. Look at the difference in performance of Jorgensonn between this season and when he was at Movistar. I think both Merckx era and todays are not the most competitive when it comes to GTs, altough of course both faced some really good riders, but in small number

I don't think it's any worse now than it has ever been regarding teams' quality affecting the outcome of grand tours. Sky, US Postal, Telekom, Banesto... All of them winning with several rider in their era. There were usually these super teams which appeared to be spawning top riders for one reason or another...

 

[EddyMazzoleni]

I don't think it's any worse now than it has ever been regarding teams' quality affecting the outcome of grand tours. Sky, US Postal, Telekom, Banesto... All of them winning with several rider in their era. There were usually these super teams which appeared to be spawning top riders for one reason or another...

Cycling didn't just randomly appear in the '90s. Through the post war period up to the '80 teams where not so important. Altough some really strong teams existed, like KAS or Van Looy's Faema, they never had the strongholds of todays team. Like almost 75% of this year world tour races (so far) have been won by 4 teams, and that's not inclunding Trek and Ineos. And not only they dominate the result sheet, they also dominate the race development.

 

[Wyndbrook]

The big difference is that the top teams now each have several riders who win top races.
Going back a few decades teams had one leader and the rest were doms.
Winning was frowned upon unless God gave the go ahead. If the leader failed the team all failed.
If the junior upsurged the leader all hell broke.
Now if there is disunity a rider will transferred, in the past careers were effectively ended.

 

[solo80k]

Some say Teddy wins races against farmers so maybe it wasn't different with Eddy

Fishermen more likely...

 

[Peyroteo94]

Wait is over, GOAT is back on the menu!!!

 

[Peyroteo94]

His two most recent tweets are indeed about Ayuso:

Hilarious! Mou is an hell of a character

 

[mariosommelier]

Hilarious! Mou is an hell of a character

I love some mou hahaha

 

[Peyroteo94]

The Quebec/Montreal team. Ayuso not looking as pleased.

Ayuso should leave the team. What an arrogant person.

 

[Peyroteo94]

I love some mou hahaha

Miss my alpha troll

 

[mariosommelier]

Ayuso should leave the team. What an arrogant person.

Pogacar should demand UAE to dump him asap.

 

[Salvarani]

Wait is over, GOAT is back on the menu!!!

GOAT GOAT GOAT

 

[snipeheem]

Finally he is back

 

[Froome]

I find it extremely disrespectful to the other riders from that era as well as Merckx to just go with the narrative that Merckx was the only good rider against farmers.

If we go by that logic of "farmers" in Merckx era, then we can say the same about this era.

This era is basically 3/4 riders above everybody, and the rest is farmers.

What is the name of the guys Pogacar beat in strade bianche, Giro? I'm not going to talk of the Tour because the competition he faced was injuried competition, even if it was better than the competition he faced in the previous races.

There is 3/4 guys that win every race, especially Pogacar who won a lot this year, and then there is a bunch of farmers who always lose against those guys.

 

[YavorD]

If we go by that logic of "farmers" in Merckx era, then we can say the same about this era.

This era is basically 3/4 riders above everybody, and the rest is farmers.

What is the name of the guys Pogacar beat in strade bianche, Giro? I'm not going to talk of the Tour because the competition he faced was injuried competition, even if it was better than the competition he faced in the previous races.

There is 3/4 guys that win every race, especially Pogacar who won a lot this year, and then there is a bunch of farmers who always lose against those guys.

What if the level of the riders/teams today is just way higher than in Merckx' era and these 4 or 5 riders (Vingegaard in stage races included) are just on such a level that it makes top talents look like average riders?

 

[Fos]

If we go by that logic of "farmers" in Merckx era, then we can say the same about this era.

This era is basically 3/4 riders above everybody, and the rest is farmers.

What is the name of the guys Pogacar beat in strade bianche, Giro? I'm not going to talk of the Tour because the competition he faced was injuried competition, even if it was better than the competition he faced in the previous races.

There is 3/4 guys that win every race, especially Pogacar who won a lot this year, and then there is a bunch of farmers who always lose against those guys.

It's not about the difference between the good and the not so good. It's about the fact that many years ago many riders didn't approach everything in such a professional way as they do now. It's happened in all sports.

 

[bNator]

Cycling didn't just randomly appear in the '90s. Through the post war period up to the '80 teams where not so important. Altough some really strong teams existed, like KAS or Van Looy's Faema, they never had the strongholds of todays team. Like almost 75% of this year world tour races (so far) have been won by 4 teams, and that's not inclunding Trek and Ineos. And not only they dominate the result sheet, they also dominate the race development.

Ok, but if you have lack of professionalism on one hand and super teams on the other, both limiting the level of competition (though I still don’t agree about the latter) - what would you say was the sweetspot? Historically speaking, what was the most competitive era in cycling?