Question Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

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yes Bernal was a much more obvious talent, no argument from me there. but he was also on a team that was getting into lots of good races so it was much easier for him to "show off" his talent as well. Vingegaard was stashed away on a small Danish team at the same time, he barely did any races of note at all. it's only cherrypicking because there is not much else to look at, there's no way to see what his numbers were or anything like that.

of course he is not clean IMO, his climbing times are absurd. but he has already podiumed two Tours de France at the same age that Froome was not even supposed to be selected for his breakout grand tour. it's not even close. should I post the famous chart where Brailsford himself had Froome charted as the literal worst rider on Team Sky?
Well, Froome is the most hilarious industrial accident in the history of the sport. Even Sky thought he was *** until he demonstrated he was a super responder.

But Vingegaard is evidently (in my mind) the first real example of a champion in this era whose existence as a TdF winner owes to the now widespread clinical abuse in the peloton in 2022, i.e. a rider whose success is the result of being in the right team at the right time & responding so well to Jumbo's program. I also think they've probably pioneered stuff unique to Vingegaard & Wout van Aert, aka the two champions for their next half decade of Jumbo. I could speculate forever with this but I candidly also believe Jumbo canned Roglic this season, i.e. decommissioned of sorts in terms of his preparation because he was no longer their focus.

In any case Jumbo is completely out of control & they're clinically unstoppable right now. Hence why I think Pogacar should do the Vuelta because just like Roglic in 2020, you need to grab glory & palmarès whenever you can. There's no saying how overpowered Jumbo might be next season at the TdF.

Even Ullrich went & won a Vuelta (when it wasn't even as big as it was now), i.e. just because Pogacar has more natural talent than Vingegaard (something I believe to be true), it doesn't mean he can up the level of his own program & beat Vingegaard next year. It doesn't work like that.
 
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Ok let's try this again. This is someone with particular strength in mountainous races who almost only raced in Northern France, Belgium and the Netherlands as an under 23 with five exceptions.

In 2016 the Sibiu Tour with that time trial result and Tour of China (finished second overall). And in 2018 where he did three stage races with mountains: Pressnietz Spa nations cup (fifth overall after Pogacar, Battistella, Hirschi and Errazkin), Valle d'Aosta (won the first stage mountain time trial, then crashed out), Avenir (no results there, was affected by a concussion from the Aosta crash).

When he turned professional he was immediately at the top, not just competitive, in medium mountain stages in wt stage races. Itzulia (12th on the Eibar stage, the hardest; only five riders were ahead (Izagirre, Fuglsang, Yates, Martin and Pogacar who was dropped at the end), Tour de Pologne (won the hardest stage, then couldn't fall asleep and dropped immediately the following day).

He won a stage on the first occasion to ride for himself in a wt stage race (UAE Tour 2021). The only races he had even raced with mountains before then was Romandie 2019 and Vuelta 2020 (as support for Primoz Roglic who won both races).

It's a linear progression, really fast too.

oh and I don't think this cyclist is more clean, less prepared than others etc etc but moronic claims about sudden improvement upsets me. The raw talent is obvious from 2016 and on.
 
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When he turned professional he was immediately at the top, not just competitive, in medium mountain stages in wt stage races. Itzulia (12th on the Eibar stage, the hardest; only five riders were ahead (Izagirre, Fuglsang, Yates, Martin and Pogacar who was dropped at the end), Tour de Pologne (won the hardest stage, then couldn't fall asleep and dropped immediately the following day).
yes, that Itzulia stage was when I first noticed him. that stage was insanely difficult and raced from far out thanks to Astana detonating the peloton (remember how good they were in 2019?). i suppose it's possible that he was already on the Jumbo program then but either way that was a huge ride for such an inexperienced rider.

singling out Vingegaard for being "a random *** who won the Tour" conveniently forgets that like 8 of the last 12 Tours were also won by random assholes
 
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Watching this debate is a bit like watching a Democrat and a Republican argue in the U.S.; each side firmly believes the facts argue their case. While I am the Democrat arguing in that scenario, here I would argue that the truth is somewhere in the middle. I would think we can all agree with these facts and / or assessments, but maybe I am wrong. Let's see:
  • Pogacar, Vingegaard, Froome, and Roglic (the 4 riders being thrown aroung here) all likely dope(d) but we do not do with certainty about any of them; thus, any of the 4 could be clean or could be doped
  • Vingegaard's trajectory has more in common with Froome's than with any other Tour winner in the last 20+ years
    • Both feature non-traditional, scrappy backgrounds in which they biked due to passion but had to support themselves (Vingo as a fish canner; Froome as a student in South Africa)
    • Neither had early results that indicated they were the best or near the best of their age group as U23s
    • Both were left of the GT in which they had their breakthrough (Froome 2011 Vuelta, Vingo Tour) and were last minute adds
    • Both got second in their breakthrough GT
    • Both went on to win the Tour the next year with the help of a dominant team with lots of resources
    • Both displaced their team captain in doing so (though Froome first guided Wiggins to a Tour win before taking his place)
  • Vingegaard did show some promise as a young rider but nothing prior to 2021 to indicate he would win the Tour
  • Roglic's trajectory is also unusual
 
It comes across as super defensive to argue about Vingegaard's "talent" even when admitting he most likely dopes. This applies to other riders as well.

I'm the biggest Roglic fan there is (I get shredded for that a lot, often by people who take this stuff way too seriously), i.e. despite that fact I do not get upset or act like one of those Lance cheerleaders when someone says he's probably doped. I mean he comes from winter sports & a country notorious for clinical exploits. I'm not delusional. This obviously applies to the rest of the peloton as well (& other top riders like van der Poel etc.).

It's pro-cycling. It is what it is.

But Vingegaard's rise is absolutely similar to Froome's in the sense he landed in a ready made program surrounded by some of the brightest minds in the business in his team which is also one of the most powerful & best in the peloton. It's like Floyd Landis is another interesting example compared to 'greats' like Pantani, i.e. Landis a real random with a few results here & there who absolutely won the TdF based on a program pioneered by others (geniuses like Ferrari & years of prior experience) which he applied to himself (haphazardly in the end, which caused his downfall).

And this is the 'splitting hairs' of such a topic, i.e. how much does a rider win because he's genuinely a unique talent (even with dope) versus others who're essentially products of being in the right place at the right time.
 
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Watching this debate is a bit like watching a Democrat and a Republican argue in the U.S.; each side firmly believes the facts argue their case. While I am the Democrat arguing in that scenario, here I would argue that the truth is somewhere in the middle. I would think we can all agree with these facts and / or assessments, but maybe I am wrong. Let's see:
  • Pogacar, Vingegaard, Froome, and Roglic (the 4 riders being thrown aroung here) all likely dope(d) but we do not do with certainty about any of them; thus, any of the 4 could be clean or could be doped
  • Vingegaard's trajectory has more in common with Froome's than with any other Tour winner in the last 20+ years
    • Both feature non-traditional, scrappy backgrounds in which they biked due to passion but had to support themselves (Vingo as a fish canner; Froome as a student in South Africa)
    • Neither had early results that indicated they were the best or near the best of their age group as U23s
    • Both were left of the GT in which they had their breakthrough (Froome 2011 Vuelta, Vingo Tour) and were last minute adds
    • Both got second in their breakthrough GT
    • Both went on to win the Tour the next year with the help of a dominant team with lots of resources
    • Both displaced their team captain in doing so (though Froome first guided Wiggins to a Tour win before taking his place)
  • Vingegaard did show some promise as a young rider but nothing prior to 2021 to indicate he would win the Tour
  • Roglic's trajectory is also unusual
There’s far more evidence for Froome than any of the others in the list. And it’s not just his trajectory.
 
I see, so the problem is that there is some confusion about what a real 'talent' does.

Check Remco Evenepoel, for fun of it and compare that with the others. (I pick him because he was also dominant before joining the pro/pro team)

2019 (19y) 916pnt (first year pro)
2020 (20y) 898pnt
2021 (21y) 1200pnt
2022 (22y) 1316pnt


22 wins in 2018 (also counted 1st GC as a win) (Junior, resulting in skipping U23)
9 wins in first pro year in 2019


And we are here talking about someone who showed 'super talent, goat' when he won a single stage or came 12th in another... really? We are talking about winning the tour with the highest average speed and the biggest differences while having room to spare. Yes he showed talent for a good domestique, a stage win, some podium places on some stages. Maybe a GC in a one week stage race if the parcour is suited. But we are talking about the absolute best of the best, the cream of the cream.

Heck even for pogacar this was but a remote dream when joining the pro's (before his meteoric rise)
 
immediately at the top except for the stages were he wasn't

bordering on the Froome finished 14th in the TT in his first TdF once, so he always was legit good
Like when? You mean he didn't win every race, was inconsistent, what? I don't see what he could have done more to be seen as more legitimate or whatever. It was a super promising neopro season, don't see how even the most tough guy poster can disagree.
 
yes Bernal was a much more obvious talent, no argument from me there. but he was also on a team that was getting into lots of good races so it was much easier for him to "show off" his talent as well. Vingegaard was stashed away on a small Danish team at the same time, he barely did any races of note at all. it's only cherrypicking because there is not much else to look at, there's no way to see what his numbers were or anything like that.

of course he is not clean IMO, his climbing times are absurd. but he has already podiumed two Tours de France at the same age that Froome was not even supposed to be selected for his breakout grand tour. it's not even close. should I post the famous chart where Brailsford himself had Froome charted as the literal worst rider on Team Sky?
Your first sentence is why Bernal was offered the opportunity at Ineos. Vingegaard was stashed away at an obscure team because at that time nobody knew how he might respond with the right “methods”. Plus Bernal isn’t a 58Kg WvA TT rival. Just absurd. Poor Roglic.

His TT is far more absurd than his climbing.

Jumbo brought him in as a potential mountain Dom and hit pay dirt.
 
Such nonsense. By introducing Froome is an obvious diversion and strawman. Forget Froome.

I just compare to the other doper Pog. He showed far superior results than Vingo at a younger age. Not even close. Opposite sides of the coin indeed. But 2023 will be fun! Top fuel Teddy? The nuclear arms race will reach new heights. But hey it’s great entertainment I suppose.
I think @zlev11 is commenting on this comparison because a number of other posters have been and it is silly to do so, as they are not really comparable. The Transfroomation was quite a bit different ... more out of the blue at a later stage in his cycling 'career' and with different trajectory. Now, does that make vingo not suspicious or his performances not ridiculous ... not at all. Did vingo show a bigger jump up in performance compared to pogo (higher step up in a shorter timeframe) ... obviously yes.

Quite honestly, I do not know what they are now doing in terms of training supplementation. I believed during the Sky years it was a combo of TUE use/abuse to and past the limit, possibly new drugs, and possibly riders blood doping. When you consider the pharmaceuticals out there, which have numerous on and off label applications, they can make a world of difference to recovery, staying power, strength, weight loss, etc. (but require a sh*t ton of personalized customization).

As has been posted, recovery from day to day seems to be instant. Gotta love regular training science - e.g. periodized training with 2 intense days per week and a rest week every 3-4 weeks, compared to just race flat out every day (WvA style baby). It must apply to training as well to get to that level. And then having the ultraskinny climber blast others in a TT :p Love that! I mean, pogo was ridiculed for being super fast on the flat part of the 2020 TdF final TT, and then still burning up the climb fast than those saving their legs for that climb. All without a PM because why bother, right? That was a ridiculous and laughable performance then and should have been called out more than it was. And vingo's final TT was also painfully ridiculous.
 
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I think @zlev11 is commenting on this comparison because a number of other posters have been and it is silly to do so, as they are not really comparable. The Transfroomation was quite a bit different ... more out of the blue at a later stage in his cycling 'career' and with different trajectory. Now, does that make vingo not suspicious or his performances not ridiculous ... not at all. Did vingo show a bigger jump up in performance compared to pogo (higher step up in a shorter timeframe) ... obviously yes.
OK, you guys keep acting like the Froome comparison is strange, but whose trajectory would you say Vingegaard's trajectory most closely resembles?

Froome
Contador
Bernal
Geraint Thomas
Nibali
Cadel Evans
Andy Schleck
Lance Armstrong
 
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I think @zlev11 is commenting on this comparison because a number of other posters have been and it is silly to do so, as they are not really comparable. The Transfroomation was quite a bit different ... more out of the blue at a later stage in his cycling 'career' and with different trajectory. Now, does that make vingo not suspicious or his performances not ridiculous ... not at all. Did vingo show a bigger jump up in performance compared to pogo (higher step up in a shorter timeframe) ... obviously yes.

Quite honestly, I do not know what they are now doing in terms of training supplementation. I believed during the Sky years it was a combo of TUE use/abuse to and past the limit, possibly new drugs, and possibly riders blood doping. When you consider the pharmaceuticals out there, which have numerous on and off label applications, they can make a world of difference to recovery, staying power, strength, weight loss, etc. (but require a sh*t ton of personalized customization).

As has been posted, recovery from day to day seems to be instant. Gotta love regular training science - e.g. periodized training with 2 intense days per week and a rest week every 3-4 weeks, compared to just race flat out every day (WvA style baby). It must apply to training as well to get to that level. And then having the ultraskinny climber blast others in a TT :p Love that! I mean, pogo was ridiculed for being super fast on the flat part of the 2020 TdF final TT, and then still burning up the climb fast than those saving their legs for that climb. All without a PM because why bother, right? That was a ridiculous and laughable performance then and should have been called out more than it was. And vingo's final TT was also painfully ridiculous.
Yes the ultra skinny climber rivalling a rampant WvA on that final TT course custom made for WvA was every but as absurd as both the flat and climb part of that 2020 TdF final TT. Even more ridiculous than Pog in 2020. And lets always remember Vingo was a nobody before the 2021 TdF. Pog has actually done stuff.

In fact Vingo's final TT was the most ridiculous time trial by anyone that I have seen since the EPO days. Everyone can see WvA was a monster. Well the 58Kg climber rivalled the monster on that course. It eclipses Contador's defeat of Cancellara at Annecy. But again, Contador had a long streak of big results before then. Vingo had squat of note until the 2021 TdF.

But no, lets happily argue about Froome because that is a convenient distraction from the new freak show. in town.
 
Bizarre take. Who are the "random assholes"?

  1. Pogacar
  2. Bernal
  3. Geraint Thomas
  4. Chris Froome
  5. Vincenzo Nibali
  6. Cadel Evans
  7. Alberto Contador
That takes us all the way to 2009
G Unit, Wiggo and Froomster (at least in his first performances) were all wtf moments. Pogo's final TT was a total wtf as well. Going back earlier, Conti dueling with the original bad-ass-Ras in 2007 was pretty entertaining and insane, but Conti was never out of the blue.
 
I'm not entirely sure why people are drawing a false equivalency between vingo and dawg. It is almost a willful ignorance of their performances. I mean, vingo is completely suspicious in his trajectory, so don't get me wrong. But dawg was just laughably crazy in comparison.
I suppose with Froome there was a mixture of responding well to doping, but also some real development as he hadn't had the most comfortable of starts as a teenager, so I think there was still some way for legit improvement in addition to doping. Both together, that's my guess, made the change we saw.
 
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OK, you guys keep acting like the Froome comparison is strange, but whose trajectory would you say Vingegaard's trajectory most closely resembles?

Froome
Contador
Bernal
Geraint Thomas
Nibali
Cadel Evans
Andy Schleck
Lance Armstrong
More closely resembles versus closely resembles is the challenge I have. I don't think vingo is close to froome.

Hey, pharmstrong was pretty dramatic and nuts in his one-nut-less return!

But this is the pogo thread, so I am not going to spend a lot more time talking about vingo's absurdity, which was absurdly absurd :p
 
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sorry yes, I forgot Nibali.

you're also forgetting Wiggins.
You're right.
G Unit, Wiggo and Froomster (at least in his first performances) were all wtf moments. Pogo's final TT was a total wtf as well. Going back earlier, Conti dueling with the original bad-ass-Ras in 2007 was pretty entertaining and insane, but Conti was never out of the blue.
Yeah very true. So basically, it's the GT winners on the last two dominant teams with the most money, which makes sense. And Pogi's TT which is its own WTF.
More closely resembles versus closely resembles is the challenge I have. I don't think vingo is close to froome.

Hey, pharmstrong was pretty dramatic and nuts in his one-nut-less return!

But this is the pogo thread, so I am not going to spend a lot more time talking about vingo's absurdity, which was absurdly absurd :p
LOL. I didn't realize this was the Pogi thread.
 

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