Question Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[GuntherL]

It's about time we address Pogacars remarkable rise since he joined UAE in 2019.

His first season as a junior wasn't anything special, but we have to remember that he was born later in year (September) which is a disadvantage at that age.
In his second season he definitely proved his talent by winning the Giro della Lunigiana.
However, in the entire season he only won two stages and never put any distance on his competitors.
His time trial abilities were less impressive. A 25th and 68th spot.

His first season as a U23 rider wasn't too great either.
He won a few youth jerseys, but didn't record a single stage win.

His second season was definitely better, but still hit and miss.
He won the Tour de l'Avenir, but didn't record a stage win.
He also finished 7th at the WC road race.
Promising, but not exceptional.

Then he moved to UAE. Its CEO is Mauro Gianetti, possibly the dirtiest rider and sports director in history.
Suddenly he started to win stage races (Algarve, California, and individual mountain stages in the Vuelta against the likes of Valverde and Roglic.
He also became a much better time trialist beating Mohoric and Tratnik in the Slovenian championship.

Give me a break.

 

[Red Rick]

I think it's a bit about context as well. For example, Roglic is an amazing time triallist, in the first two weeks of stage races. Not all that great in the third week.

Dumoulin and Roglic rode the climb slower than Van Aert, Barguil, Landa, Martinez, Mas, Bilbao etc... And barely beat an injured Quintana on the climb. They clearly were quite a long way from their best here.

I think we should try to put Pogacar's ride into some perspective. And shouldn't pretend that he put a minute or two into the best Dumoulin or the best Roglic.

Let's say Dumoulin does a bike switch and does the ITT 30s faster. Then he's still beaten by 50s by a non ITTer who didn't have the legs to attack Roglic 2 and 3 days ago.

 

[SantiBotero]

I'm not really sure what that tells us to be honest. By the way, I'm not really defending Pogacar here, it's an insane, pretty unbelievable performance. But just seeing Porte and Van Aert the other two fastest climbers, does make me wonder if the GC field is a bit weak. Roglic has a history of poor TTs in the last week. And Dumoulin has been below par all race.

I have absolutely no doubts that if Froome was in Pogacar's position at the start of the day. And Roglic put in that TT. Then Froome would have taken yellow by over a minute as well.

Whether or not its a good thing comparing Pogacar with Froome though...

I agree with you. We saw this year many mountain stages with big groups coming together, including with Caruso, Valverde and others subpar performers. The time differences between the cyclists is very low (specially looking to the GC yesterday) comparing to previous years. This all points out to a rather weaker-than-usual field, which can be explained in many ways. WVA, De la Cruz, Cavagna or Porte are also very surprising results.

There is clearly a transition in the peloton, with many sub-23 cyclists riding at an incredible high level. This is very uncommon in cycling and points out to a rather weaker field for those in the late 20's / 30's.

Obviously the huge time difference, UAD / Aderlass brings a shadow to this result, but i would not compare Pogacar to Ricco / Piepoli / Schumacher...

 

[perico]

That's not actually as bad as I thought it would be. 20 seconds on Porte in 16 minutes. Van Aert in third.

I know it's a cliche; but is this just a really weak field?

No. We are coming off a lockdown. Pogacar and Roglic were free to train for a month while the French, Spaniards, Brits, etc were dealing with trainers. We were always going to have weird results this year.

Yeah Thomas would’ve made it more interesting but this is the new generation rising. Nibali tactically would’ve changed things, but he’s not going to win another TDF. He’s turned into Simoni- he can win the Giro but shows up at the Tour happy with the stage. Froome would’ve finished OTL on stage 2.

 

[IndianCyclist]

When De la Cruz suddenly turned the screws on La Loze out of nowhere and dropped Landa, i thought it odd that an injured rider can suddenly become a good helper. Pogachar perf today is Merckxian which is probably 1 in 5000/10000. He beat the best climbers by a huge margin on the climb and he also beat the best flat/rolling TT on the flatter terrain. His past performance have been good but never this good. Now put Bernal statements about him doing his best numbers also in context. Then on top that he got dropped on La Loze by MAL and Roglic. How do you recover from that to completely obliterating the competition on the flats and the climbs? the team should release the power data and the UCI should check more deeply the entire team.

 

[Amazinmets87]

Yeah, this is what surprised me the most as well. Most GC riders were quite a bit below their best; some like Lopez and Valverde absolutely bombed. Pogacar's rode it like it was early on in the Dauphine or something, just looked so much fresher.

Yes, abnormal recovery is one of the effects of whatever doping cocktail he injected.

 

[SafeBet]

Think also worth mentioning that Aru isn’t exactly the cleanest rider in the peloton

If Aru isn't clean now he must be the worst rider in the history of pro cycling.
But yeah he was on the good stuff back then.

 

[Ripper]

I agree with you. We saw this year many mountain stages with big groups coming together, including with Caruso, Valverde and others subpar performers. The time differences between the cyclists is very low (specially looking to the GC yesterday) comparing to previous years. This all points out to a rather weaker-than-usual field, which can be explained in many ways. WVA, De la Cruz, Cavagna or Porte are also very surprising results.

There is clearly a transition in the peloton, with many sub-23 cyclists riding at an incredible high level. This is very uncommon in cycling and points out to a rather weaker field for those in the 20's / 30's.

Obviously the huge difference, UAD / Aderlass brings a shadow to this result, but i would not compare Pogacar to Ricco / Piepoli / Schumacher...

Weaker field argument selectively ignores that TP was part of said weaker field and could not do that much damage on MTFs, which is his playground. That is not just 2-3 weeks ago, that is 2 days ago. Then today. Smokes the whole TT, not just a portion of it.

Even with major breakthroughs compared to previous middling TT results, this is nuts

 

[Ripper]

Yeah, this is what surprised me the most as well. Most GC riders were quite a bit below their best; some like Lopez and Valverde absolutely bombed. Pogacar's rode it like it was early on in the Dauphine or something, just looked so much fresher.

TP was somewhat 'same' as everyone up to today. Looked to be a bit of a naturally better climber, but also lost time just a few days back. Much of GT riding is about who's able to manage the decrease in capacities better. So we was not demonstrating a dramatic change in function, and his history in TTs was not great, but with substantial improvement this year. And then today was a massive jump, which combined with everything else, is just chuckle inducing.

But no, I do not think it was a weak field. Some obviously dealt with the lockdown better, but that factored in pretty early.

 

[Saint Unix]

Anyone can say that the field was weak, but 6.9W/kg doesn't lie. That's a monster effort, especially after matching the best TT specialists in the world on the flats for almost 40 minutes beforehand. It doesn't really matter what the other riders did today. Pogacar's ride was suspicious as hell regardless. All you need is a pair of eyes and a stopwatch.

 

[roundabout]

Let's say Dumoulin does a bike switch and does the ITT 30s faster. Then he's still beaten by 50s by a non ITTer who didn't have the legs to attack Roglic 2 and 3 days ago.

If you are going to go by form 2 and 3 days ago, then you should also make the argument that Roglic should have been much better than Dumoulin and van Aert

 

[Ripper]

Anyone can say that the field was weak, but 6.9W/kg doesn't lie. That's a monster effort, especially after matching the best TT specialists in the world on the flats for almost 40 minutes beforehand. It doesn't really matter what the other riders did today. Pogacar's ride was suspicious as hell regardless. All you need is a pair of eyes and a stopwatch.

Thanks. This is basically it. Also, one needs some functioning cognition

 

[SantiBotero]

Weaker field argument selectively ignores that TP was part of said weaker field and could not do that much damage on MTFs, which is his playground. That is not just 2-3 weeks ago, that is 2 days ago. Then today. Smokes the whole TT, not just a portion of it.

Even with major breakthroughs compared to previous middling TT results, this is nuts

While that is true, it is also true that TP was the 1st of the favourites in all mountains stages except Maribel. Obviously, without a significant difference.

 

[Red Rick]

There's clearly something new in the peloton cause all of the top 10 have put out some really impressive climbing numbers. Then somehow Pogacar today looked to be on some next level rocket fuel all on his own entirely.

Also Polanc and De La Cruz did really good ITTs today compared to where you'd expect them to here.

 

[Saint Unix]

Thanks. This is basically it. Also, one needs some functioning cognition

I also forgot he did a bike switch after the clock started running. If he'd done the bike switch before the climb he'd probably have shaved at least 10-15 seconds off his ascent time, although it would have cost him time on the TT overall.

 

[DFA123]

Let's say Dumoulin does a bike switch and does the ITT 30s faster. Then he's still beaten by 50s by a non ITTer who didn't have the legs to attack Roglic 2 and 3 days ago.

Calling Pogacar a non ITTer is ridiculous, and the kind of thing that makes the Clinic lose credibility. He's a 21 year old who has never finished outside of the top 20 in any TT's he's ridden since turning pro. And who also beat Roglic the last time he rode against him in a TT.

 

[roundabout]

pointing to an 8th and 22nd place from riders who should be quite good at this kind of TT and have shown improving form during the Tour is the next level of saltiness.

 

[Red Rick]

Calling Pogacar a non ITTer is ridiculous, and the kind of thing that makes the Clinic lose credibility. He's a 21 year old who has never finished outside of the top 20 in any TT's he's ridden since turning pro. And who also beat Roglic the last time he rode against him in a TT.

Well he isn't a specialist is he?

I didn't exactly call him Purito.

 

[Escarabajo]

That was clearly abnormal. There hasn't been this much excitement since the 1999 Tour de France.

There are few performances that you can point with reasonable certainty (>90%) that the rider is clearly heavily doped. Remember those Pantani and Riis performances. Also Lance is in that category. In this Tour something was going on. Maybe the lack of testing helped the riders dramatically. I don't know what else to say.

Pogacar just made his life and the life of his girlfriend miserable. Those vampires, after the way he performed at the Tour, won't stop knocking at his door.

And what's up with that celebration. I didn't see that much excitement in his face after that tremendous victory. His behavior reminds me of the behavior of the friend of OJ Simpson when he heard the final verdict. LOL.

 

[DFA123]

Well he isn't a specialist is he?

I didn't exactly call him Purito.

Of course he's a specialist. He's won TTs at 21 years of age, against some of the best riders in the world.

 

[Red Rick]

That was clearly abnormal. There hasn't been this much excitement since the 1999 Tour de France.

There are few performances that you can point with reasonable certainty (>90%) that the rider is clearly heavily doped. Remember those Pantani and Riis performances. Also Lance is in that category. In this Tour something was going on. Maybe the lack of testing helped the riders dramatically. I don't know what else to say.

Pogacar just made his life and the life of his girlfriend miserable. Those vampires, after the way he performed at the Tour, won't stop knocking at his door.

And what's up with that celebration. I didn't see that much excitement in his face after that tremendous victory. His behavior reminds me of the behavior of the friend of OJ Simpson when he heard the final verdict. LOL.

The craziest thing here is the overall trajectory of Pogacar this Tour. He seemed weaker in the Alps than in the Pyrenees, then cranks out the biggest single outlier of a performance in years.

 

[Red Rick]

Of course he's a specialist. He's won TTs at 21 years of age, against some of the best riders in the world.

That's like saying he's clearly cleanz because he's clearly talented and he's clearly talented because he won.

 

[DFA123]

That's like saying he's clearly cleanz because he's clearly talented and he's clearly talented because he won.

It's not like saying that at all; literally one of the worst analogies I have ever seen.

Someone who can win TTs aged 21 against a decent field is clearly a specialist. If you didn't realize that he was a specialist before today, then you should have been paying more attention tbh, because lots of people pointed it out in the race threads.

 

[Escarabajo]

Of course he's a specialist. He's won TTs at 21 years of age, against some of the best riders in the world.

So his performance is normal? correct?

 

[Amazinmets87]

The craziest thing here is the overall trajectory of Pogacar this Tour. He seemed weaker in the Alps than in the Pyrenees, then cranks out the biggest single outlier of a performance in years.

Hey, those are the signs of a natural rider, no? Performance increases at the end of a grueling Grand Tour.

Pro cycling is a joke.

 

[richwallone]

There is clearly a transition in the peloton, with many sub-23 cyclists riding at an incredible high level. This is very uncommon in cycling and points out to a rather weaker field for those in the late 20's / 30's.

It points out to a cleaner field FFY