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Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

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Armstrong had the financial means to have the best, so he paid to have the best. He did everything he could to win. Being more naturally gifted can also mean that he responds better or suffers less side effects from certain PEDs.

My point is that, even within sports where doping is legal, outliers exist and dominate the sport. Of course the quality of the doping protocols make a difference, I just don't think UAE is that far away from Visma. For me, Poga is a clear outlier. This season has been absolutely ridiculous and drugs alone would not explain it.

Vingegaard's Tour performance was also outrageous, considering the accident and how he had to change his preparation, so I don't think UAE program is that far from what Visma is doing.
Yes and no on Vindegaard. What Jonas had at his disposal in the way of doctors, PTs and legal prescriptions on his way to recovery would most certainly contribute to a rapid, but maybe not sustainable peak for LeTour.
The aftermath of competing suddenly and intensely has it's consequences. Much different extremes, IMO.
 
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And have I said anything indicating that Visma is clean? This is the Poggie&Gianetti thread, so the talk is on the topic. And yes this season has been the last straw for me and yes Vinges last season was in a different universe than Poggies current one. Last year there was still tension for most of the races, this year there has been some tension basically only in the races Poggie hasn't raced.

This has gone so bad, that if they dont bust this or put some brakes on, I'm kind of hoping that other teams really up their game too for next season. Hell let's brake Pantani's records by six minutes next year and with multiple riders. MVDP, Remco or others should do 120km solos in Flanders, Roubaix and other races. This season has been just an utterly ugly joke since early spring.
Just curious; if he lost more to Remco or Jonas would that lessen your "last straw" of tolerance? Really, this is no different than every season for the last 10 years with the exception of 5 of the top 6 GT contenders have had serious crashes...at the same time. All things being equal the disparity of performance is a mixture of good/bad fortune and consistent health. Add in whatever shady protocols and it's business as usual.
 
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Just curious; if he lost more to Remco or Jonas would that lessen your "last straw" of tolerance? Really, this is no different than every season for the last 10 years with the exception of 5 of the top 6 GT contenders have had serious crashes...at the same time. All things being equal the disparity of performance is a mixture of good/bad fortune and consistent health. Add in whatever shady protocols and it's business as usual.
I think pogacar's season was more than business as usual. Regardless of others misfortunes, he's been on form for everything, all year long.
 
That’s fine but it was “so bad” after stage 16 at last year’s TdF. I just prefer objectivity. I don’t recall you jumping up and down in the Vingegaard thread after the Combleux TT? But you are not alone. An arms race. Maybe if Visma backs off so will Gianetti.
There is a simple reason why I wasn't here jumping up and down after Combloux TT😉. It took Strade, Catalonia, LBL, the most dominant Giro in a very long while(prop the worst in the modern cycling era), and the PDB to snap the elastic for me. Then I decided to also register, instead of just reading the forum and discussing cycling topics with real life friends.
Combloux was alien too, but still just one performance, in an event the rider has foccused all season, not doing it on every terrain, every race and all year long.
 
Just curious; if he lost more to Remco or Jonas would that lessen your "last straw" of tolerance? Really, this is no different than every season for the last 10 years with the exception of 5 of the top 6 GT contenders have had serious crashes...at the same time. All things being equal the disparity of performance is a mixture of good/bad fortune and consistent health. Add in whatever shady protocols and it's business as usual.
Well I dont think this has been anywhere near business as usual, injuries or no injurues. PDBF was the first wtf is he on-moment for me from the monster. Then the next years Tour as a whole, took me back to Pharmastrong/Froomie memories. 2022&2023 was very suspicious too, but I was thinking, that well at least there's two of the aliens now. Then this year in whole has been the batsh*t craziest thing ever. If a rider had a very high alien like level even before and then you ad there something like 10% more in one winter and continue that from the start of the season to the end. Sure the training and nutrition was so bad before, that a change in that has made this all possible and we are witnessing a clean miracle season🤭
 
Just curious; if he lost more to Remco or Jonas would that lessen your "last straw" of tolerance? Really, this is no different than every season for the last 10 years with the exception of 5 of the top 6 GT contenders have had serious crashes...at the same time. All things being equal the disparity of performance is a mixture of good/bad fortune and consistent health. Add in whatever shady protocols and it's business as usual.
I suppose you could say there were some qualifying circumstances as to why his particular dominance was so unbelievable, that the stars aligned in his favor, that there was no competition at the Giro, that Remco and Jonas crashed badly in the run-up to the Giro, etc., etc. On the face of it, one could argue the point. However, upon further consideration, I really don't think what we got was just "business as usual." The reasons for this are several, beginning with the fact that he had a remarkable increase in power/efficiency that was evident from his first race to his most recent over a period that has spanned from March to October. In modern cycling this is simply unheard of, while, unlike in previous seasons, Pogacar showed no moment of défaillance at any point during that time. At the same time, despite being badly injured, both Vingegaard and Evenepoel put up their best performances at the Tour and still got crushed. Leaving aside last year's Tour, when Tadej had a rough ride getting to the start in good shape, he was so much better than at Tour 22 when he soundly lost to Vingegaard. Now, all things being equal talent wise, the fact that Pogacar so thoroughly beat Vingegaard this time, despite the latter putting out his best numbers, indicates that Giannetti-Maxtin increased the dosage without compunction. Worlds was an appalling demonstration of setting no limits with such mischief and duplicity. Coming from them, the schemers behind Ricco and Piepoli, now funded by petrol dollars, really is too much for some to take (including myself). And then he wins 6 stages in both Giro and Tour, not only this, but the fashion in which he has won throughout the season with long distance attacks. And now Worlds and then Emilia. Again, this is unheard of in the modern era or the past, for that matter. He rubs it in everyone's faces. If they don't dial it down, I swear there will be no reason to follow the races he's in from here on out.
 
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What he did in the Giro on taking stages he didn't need to, nah leave some for the others.
The "leave some for the others" comment would drink water if this wasn't a professional sport. Do you see Barcelona/Real Madrid/Man City gift wins because they already wrapped up the championship? Does Djokovic gift slams because he already won like 20 of them? Does Verstappen lead for 60 laps and then just lets others pass him, because he already won 18 races? Of course not. But in cycling you somehow should because...because it might hurt someone feelings lol.
 
Not so sure about that, in the UK for example the popularity of the sport has been declining for a few years now. Especially in the ametur racing, numbers are worryingly low especially in the youth races, compared to 10 years ago. I know the cost of living has a lot to do with it of course.
Judging by social media comments, people are already getting fed up with his dominance and predictability.
he he; i am sure it has nothing to do with sky sucking; were social media in UK also fed up with sky dominance.... its rhetorical question
 
he he; i am sure it has nothing to do with sky sucking; were social media in UK also fed up with sky dominance.... its rhetorical question
You cant compare Sky's dominance to Pogacar, Sky was only really the TDF, Pogacar is every dam race to a level we've not seen.
The media in the UK would often ask questions regarding their performances and legitimacy of them.
 
The "leave some for the others" comment would drink water if this wasn't a professional sport. Do you see Barcelona/Real Madrid/Man City gift wins because they already wrapped up the championship? Does Djokovic gift slams because he already won like 20 of them? Does Verstappen lead for 60 laps and then just lets others pass him, because he already won 18 races? Of course not. But in cycling you somehow should because...because it might hurt someone feelings lol.
It's not about that, it's about making allies in the peloton. If you don't do it, it means you don't want/need allies, which of course can rub people the wrong way. It's only logical.

Those other sports you mention are not relevant comparisons because the dynamics are completely different, you can just win on your own whereas in cycling you're always competing against people who might combine their forces. When Verstappen has to worry about Norris and Leclerc taking turns in the chase group, going faster than they would be if they went solo, that's when the cycling comparison will make sense.
 
- Genetic Enhancement: CRISPR could be used to edit genes associated with traits like strength, endurance, and cognitive abilities. For example, scientists have explored modifying genes related to muscle growth and metabolism.

- Ethical Concerns: Using CRISPR for performance enhancement raises significant ethical issues, particularly regarding fairness in sports, the potential for coercion, and the risks of unintended consequences. Regulatory bodies like the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) are likely to have strict rules against genetic modifications for competitive advantages.

- The ability to trace CRISPR modifications in athletes through testing is complex and still being studied. Here are some key points regarding the traceability of CRISPR and its implications for sports:

  1. Types of Genetic Modifications: CRISPR can be used to make various types of changes to an athlete's DNA, such as knocking out a gene, inserting a new gene, or altering the expression of existing genes. The specific changes made will affect how easily they can be detected.
  2. Detection Challenges:
    • Mosaicism: If CRISPR is applied after an athlete's cells have developed, the edited cells may exist alongside unedited cells (mosaicism). This can make detection more challenging, as not all cells will show the genetic modification.
    • Transient Changes: Some CRISPR modifications may be temporary or reversible, which could complicate detection if the athlete stops using the technology.
    • Testing Technology: Current genetic testing methods primarily focus on detecting doping agents or substances rather than direct genetic modifications. Advanced techniques, like whole-genome sequencing, might be needed to identify specific CRISPR edits.
  3. Potential Markers: If CRISPR were used to introduce foreign genes or make specific edits, scientists could theoretically develop tests to detect these markers. However, this would require ongoing research and the development of robust testing protocols.
  4. Ethical and Regulatory Response: As awareness of CRISPR and its potential use in sports grows, regulatory bodies like WADA would likely invest in research to create testing methods. They may also define specific guidelines on what constitutes unfair advantage through genetic enhancement.
  5. Consequences of Detection: If genetic modifications were detected, athletes could face significant penalties, including bans from competition. This could create a strong deterrent against the use of CRISPR for performance enhancement.
In summary, while CRISPR modifications might not be easily detectable with current testing methods, advancements in genetic testing and increased scrutiny in sports could change this landscape. Ethical considerations and regulatory measures will play a crucial role in addressing the challenges posed by genetic enhancements in athletics.

Text above is chatGPT.
 
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No one was eve selling a story that they have a superior lactate clearance or other nonsense and that was the explanation to their sudden dominance. And in fact those two dominated way more and earlier than Poggien did as a junior. I also dont believe they were clean either, Phelps especially was suspicious, even thou he has big hands and feel 🤭Bolt for me seems more like he might have been only on the same stuff than other sprinters. He had a clear advantage in height, yet his legs where still as fast as the shorter guys have and that is rare for a tall guy.
The higher lactate threshold and clearance were excuses that Armstrong's camp made back in the 00s. It doesn't mean of course that it's false but I'd guess that pretty much every elite endurance athlete have a (much) higher than average lactate threshold.
If only they were a bit more original to their excuses at least...
 
- Genetic Enhancement: CRISPR could be used to edit genes associated with traits like strength, endurance, and cognitive abilities. For example, scientists have explored modifying genes related to muscle growth and metabolism.

- Ethical Concerns: Using CRISPR for performance enhancement raises significant ethical issues, particularly regarding fairness in sports, the potential for coercion, and the risks of unintended consequences. Regulatory bodies like the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) are likely to have strict rules against genetic modifications for competitive advantages.

- The ability to trace CRISPR modifications in athletes through testing is complex and still being studied. Here are some key points regarding the traceability of CRISPR and its implications for sports:

  1. Types of Genetic Modifications: CRISPR can be used to make various types of changes to an athlete's DNA, such as knocking out a gene, inserting a new gene, or altering the expression of existing genes. The specific changes made will affect how easily they can be detected.
  2. Detection Challenges:
    • Mosaicism: If CRISPR is applied after an athlete's cells have developed, the edited cells may exist alongside unedited cells (mosaicism). This can make detection more challenging, as not all cells will show the genetic modification.
    • Transient Changes: Some CRISPR modifications may be temporary or reversible, which could complicate detection if the athlete stops using the technology.
    • Testing Technology: Current genetic testing methods primarily focus on detecting doping agents or substances rather than direct genetic modifications. Advanced techniques, like whole-genome sequencing, might be needed to identify specific CRISPR edits.
  3. Potential Markers: If CRISPR were used to introduce foreign genes or make specific edits, scientists could theoretically develop tests to detect these markers. However, this would require ongoing research and the development of robust testing protocols.
  4. Ethical and Regulatory Response: As awareness of CRISPR and its potential use in sports grows, regulatory bodies like WADA would likely invest in research to create testing methods. They may also define specific guidelines on what constitutes unfair advantage through genetic enhancement.
  5. Consequences of Detection: If genetic modifications were detected, athletes could face significant penalties, including bans from competition. This could create a strong deterrent against the use of CRISPR for performance enhancement.
In summary, while CRISPR modifications might not be easily detectable with current testing methods, advancements in genetic testing and increased scrutiny in sports could change this landscape. Ethical considerations and regulatory measures will play a crucial role in addressing the challenges posed by genetic enhancements in athletics.

Text above is chatGPT.
This makes more sense than most other explanations imo, I don’t know anything else about it other than the above though.
 
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The higher lactate threshold and clearance were excuses that Armstrong's camp made back in the 00s. It doesn't mean of course that it's false but I'd guess that pretty much every elite endurance athlete have a (much) higher than average lactate threshold.
If only they were a bit more original to their excuses at least...
what exactly should they say ? what excuse would clinic investigators believe, it doesnt matter what they say some people have already decided; athlete to good, clearly doping, probably the only sport in the world "fans" are reacting like this.
 
- Genetic Enhancement: CRISPR could be used to edit genes associated with traits like strength, endurance, and cognitive abilities. For example, scientists have explored modifying genes related to muscle growth and metabolism.

- Ethical Concerns: Using CRISPR for performance enhancement raises significant ethical issues, particularly regarding fairness in sports, the potential for coercion, and the risks of unintended consequences. Regulatory bodies like the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) are likely to have strict rules against genetic modifications for competitive advantages.

- The ability to trace CRISPR modifications in athletes through testing is complex and still being studied. Here are some key points regarding the traceability of CRISPR and its implications for sports:

  1. Types of Genetic Modifications: CRISPR can be used to make various types of changes to an athlete's DNA, such as knocking out a gene, inserting a new gene, or altering the expression of existing genes. The specific changes made will affect how easily they can be detected.
  2. Detection Challenges:
    • Mosaicism: If CRISPR is applied after an athlete's cells have developed, the edited cells may exist alongside unedited cells (mosaicism). This can make detection more challenging, as not all cells will show the genetic modification.
    • Transient Changes: Some CRISPR modifications may be temporary or reversible, which could complicate detection if the athlete stops using the technology.
    • Testing Technology: Current genetic testing methods primarily focus on detecting doping agents or substances rather than direct genetic modifications. Advanced techniques, like whole-genome sequencing, might be needed to identify specific CRISPR edits.
  3. Potential Markers: If CRISPR were used to introduce foreign genes or make specific edits, scientists could theoretically develop tests to detect these markers. However, this would require ongoing research and the development of robust testing protocols.
  4. Ethical and Regulatory Response: As awareness of CRISPR and its potential use in sports grows, regulatory bodies like WADA would likely invest in research to create testing methods. They may also define specific guidelines on what constitutes unfair advantage through genetic enhancement.
  5. Consequences of Detection: If genetic modifications were detected, athletes could face significant penalties, including bans from competition. This could create a strong deterrent against the use of CRISPR for performance enhancement.
In summary, while CRISPR modifications might not be easily detectable with current testing methods, advancements in genetic testing and increased scrutiny in sports could change this landscape. Ethical considerations and regulatory measures will play a crucial role in addressing the challenges posed by genetic enhancements in athletics.

Text above is chatGPT.
Not an expert on anything but I think motors is more likely than genetic engineering. I'd say the most likely is pushing more traditional methods and maybe some new tweaks (like monoxide) further than others because UAE are protected by money armor and less timid regarding rider health etc.
Less likely but sadly not unthinkable are motors. Genetic fumbling seems more scifi to me than both these explanations.
 
The "leave some for the others" comment would drink water if this wasn't a professional sport. Do you see Barcelona/Real Madrid/Man City gift wins because they already wrapped up the championship? Does Djokovic gift slams because he already won like 20 of them? Does Verstappen lead for 60 laps and then just lets others pass him, because he already won 18 races? Of course not. But in cycling you somehow should because...because it might hurt someone feelings lol.
Listen, you clearly don't get it, cycling doesn't work that way. I shall spell this out for you. If Pogacar under Giannetti-Matxin puts a string of seasons together like this one, the other teams will get pi$$ed. You get my meaning? Since they know how the game is played and the sponsors will stop wanting to invest in losers. What will happen is either they (Giannetti-Matxin) dial it back a bit, to give the others some breathing space and a piece of the pie, or Pogacar gets brought down. In the first case they will say he won the Tour at 21, thus the aging effect set in early, or the competition got better (meaning he was doped over the top, so we had to calm it down). Mark my words.
 
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