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Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

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It's not what he won but how he did it. I mean, it's understandable to have a very succesfull season where a cyclist can win Giro, Tour, Lieja, World Champs, Catalunya and Strade, but he hadn't any opposition with his rivals having the best performances of their lifes in many cases (that was what Vingegaard said on Plateau de Beille). He didn't have any bad day all season long and nobody could react to any of his attacks. He was absolutely unstoppable and I didn't see anything like that in my life as a cycling fan.

It's also hard to understand to me how a rider who is a "supertop" is capable to increase his level again and make a step ahead bigger than which he did at 20 years, considering he was a top-top level and therefore the increasing margins should be lower.

I'm not talking as a Remco or Jonas fan. To be honest I'm not fan of any rider, I love cycling and I love the competition and it hurts me to see things like what we are seeing these years.
 
The gal was caught dead-cold cheating with a motorized CX bike. No confusion about how that operated. There have been Masters racers caught as well and the evidence usually comes from others in the race because it is visibly obvious. This road had been travelled enough that it's much less likely to not possible compared to emergent levels of "recovery aids".

I keep saying it: this year's major differences may be mostly if not entirely attributable to the injuries suffered by almost every major contender except Pogacar. Sure; he's done some amazing stuff but when Roglic, Remco, WVA are on the ropes from crashes; the rest of the peloton and teams don't have a clue how to race. Geraint in the Giro? Did he remotely look seriously involved? Remco's Olympic RR was exactly what you saw; a tactical and opportunistic show of strength. We haven's seen any speculation on motor use for that or the TT win, have we?
Give it to next season when everyone is on a healthy reset and see if the differences are as dramatic.
Good point. i had downplayed Pog's own injury in 2023 but looking back I think that maybe is a big part of the reason he was demolished by Vingegaard in the Tour (which, let's not forget, was a least comparable time-wise to him returning the favor this year).

i don't quite understand the "we're racing for second" mentality that seems to settle over the peloton after an attaque du Pogi. I had always read stories of teams cooperating, but I can't recall anyone really working together to bring back Pog this year, the WCRR probably being the most egregious example of noncooperation.
 
Just saw it on cyclingnews: Pidcock is going to miss Lombardia. Made me recall his comment about racing taking place "at two speeds" (or something of this sort) after that 80 k solo in this year's Strade. Looks like he doesn't quite enjoy the role of an auguste clown in the current circus. Smart kid.
 
I know you are being facetious but current odds were posted in PRR. Its a British site so that probaby explains why Pidcock is 2nd favorite.

Pogacar: 1.22
Pidcock: 15
Evenepoel: 15


But I am genuinely curious as to why his popularity? Pogacar does not yet have the public awareness outside of cycling that Armstrong had. So I think this diminishes the theory he is too big to fall.
People that don't know Pogacar aren't even aware Lombardia is a region in Italy let alone Il Lombardia exists let alone betting money on it.
 
Unfortunately I never experienced the legendary and well-documented 10% increase in power in a few short winter months when I reached 25, too busy drinking and talking to girls I stood absolutely no chance with. No harm in trying I suppose.
U are missing the point i am not talking he is clean ,i am talking about its normal for athlete to improve when he enters his prime
 
The biggest fraud and dirtiest guy in the history of cycling. More faster than the guys of 90s. He improved more between 2023/2024 with 26 years, than he improved between 2019/2020 when he was more young.

Do you know who is also faster than the 90s guys? The rider in your profile picture. And he achieved that this year after spending two weeks in the hospital. He also had a massive improvement between 2020 and 2021...
 
The problem is froome was like jonas, when he was younger he was nobody
At no point did Jonas take a sudden jump absolutely out of nowhere into a type of rider, no one would ever have expected him to be. He improved in leaps for sure, but a number of them, not one of the quantum type, like Froome's. Doesn't change the fact that he's a "dirty doper," but the circumstances of Danish youth cycling and ColoQuick and Visma are very different to those of British cycling and Sky, is all.
 
The point is Pogacar came into the sport so young the line is blurred between what might be better doping and what is simply natural progress. He was already under Giannetti's wing when he won 2018 Tour de l'Avenir aged 19. Massive jumps at this age might be doping but then might also be for other reasons. And how did Giannetti identify Pog as a good responder to doping at that age anyway?

Remco burst upon the scene at he 2018 worlds when he was still only 18. I personally first noticed Pogacar at the 2019 Tour of California which he won at 20.

Vingegaard was already 24 when he arrived from nowhere to drop Pog on Ventoux at the 2021 Tour. Very conveniently for Jumbo who lost Roglic just before that race.
 
The thing is 25 isn't a human being's physical prime. In cycling that used to be a rider's prime only because the culture around the sport was very stupid.
Everyone is different. When Andy Schleck came runner up at the 2007 Giro at 21 everyone said he was the next big thing, didn't quite work out that way. Andy was an early bloomer. Others are late bloomers. Others have long careers - like Valverde. The best doping doctors in the world don't have all this worked out and that includes Mauro Giannetti.
 
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Oct 11, 2024
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Hi guys. Been a long time lurker, but never decided to actively join in any discussion up until now. The things have been getting worse year after year ever since the 2020 TDF and have now reach a point where it is just straight up laughable. It is basically at a point where it is meaningless to discuss what we are witnessing in a doping-free discussion. However, the amount of people that seems to be buying this without any questions is mind boggling. I am a Slovenian so if you think this forum is bad and occupied by fanboys you should see the Slovenian forums. Couple of times I hoped to start a debate on this topic, but needless to say, it goes nowhere. Crazy world, talking about doping in cycling is perceived as spreading some wild conspiracies… in a sport that, from historical point of view, is completely integrated with doping. So this forum really is like a breath of fresh air. A place where there still seems to be a lot knowledgeable people and cycling fans perceiving things as they are rather than looking through rose-tinted glasses. So I decided to join, maybe share some thoughts from time to time, or just to vent some frustration as this is the only place where we can do this.



So to begin by addressing the following point. We have been hearing constantly that the reason for what we are witnessing in the last few years is due to »aero/nutrition/training« improvement (and this goes for Pogačar‘s level as well as cycling in general). And what I see is people just blindly following and repeating this mantra, without any real meaning to it. I haven't heard any concrete explanation as to how exactly and by how much this makes improvement, when did this advancements came into existence, even with them, how it is possible people can shatter full-EPO boosted records,…? What we are being served is a lazy rationale: »aero/nutrition/training« has improved so much that all we are witnessing is perfectly logical so no need for further questions… which is not really an explanation but a mere “just believe me” statement.

Even if we, for a second, put aside the fact who are the people in charge of UAE operation, forget that we have heard the same excuses before, even if we somehow convince ourselves that we can have never-seen-like domination in the time when this sport is the most professional it has ever been, even if we forget that he has dominated the whole season without even the slightest signs of weakness, even if we make the stretch and say that all the advancement can compensate for the full EPO-juiced/60% HCT monsters, there is still the trend in performances that just does not add up. All this apparent »aero/nutrition/training« evolution they want to sell somehow skyrocketed the performances only in the span of last 3-4 years while it remained stagnant for some 20 years. What we see, performance-wise, is a dramatic change, a revolution rather evolution, if you will. And while I believe in evolution in all these fields that has obviously made progress since the 90's, I just do not see any real revolution happening in the last few years that could potentially explain the dramatic leaps in performances, with Pogačar as the most noticeable example of this new level that was considered science fiction just a few years back. With all this, objectively, it is just hard to find any other explanation than the use of PED's for the current affairs. Yes, we do not have a proof but when something looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.

Between the two explanations in case of Pogačar, i.e. the GOAT, genetic freak, most talented rider in history on one hand, and artificially boosted performer like, almost exclusively, any rider dominating in the past on the other, it honestly seem a minor miracle if the former was the case. Yet people seem to choose the comforting fiction over the rational reality.
 
Vingegaard was already 24 when he arrived from nowhere to drop Pog on Ventoux at the 2021 Tour.
Come on. He came in second at the Itzulia that year. Ahead of Pogacar. "Suddenly" he was able to do drop Pogacar after doing it a couple of months earlier... Which was also very "sudden" seeing as he won ahead of Pogacar a few months earlier on Jebel Jais. Which actually was somewhat sudden.
 
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