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Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

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Why race with motor aid and raise questions day after day with outrageous performances? I think it would be better to use it at very specific times to avoid suspicion...

I rule out biological doping because Tadej would already be dead since he is always at his best, and not just 3 weeks in a year.
They don't care about being suspicious. They are not really challenged sofar. The story of 'Pogacar, the greatest talent in cycling ever' is good enough to keep the media and the masses exited.
 
When we check overall wins only, in 2024 Pogacar was successful in 9 out of 11 races, with 3rd place in MSR and 7th in Montreal as the weakest results.

Whatever he's using, it's possible to use it all season long, peaking multiple times at his will. To be honest, he's body changed a little - he's more muscled-up now. His core training needs to be excellent as well- he's not swinging on the bike.
Or, that could be just the result of not pushing on those pedals all that hard. Which -- surprise, surprise -- aligns well with him not breathing hard and joking with camera folks while on an "extraterrestrial" attack nobody else can follow.
 
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It's good that this boring season is over. Lets see what they develop next year and who made the best updates to the system. It's like watching a parody on Drive to Survive. Anyway, I am not taking risks. I am going to start zone 2 training this winter.
I was going to type the exact same thing: I'm just glad this season is over.
Jeesh, at least with Lance there was an ever-so-tiny bit of doubt at the back of my mind. Here? None whatsoever.
 
Do any Pog fans actually think he's clean? I'm referring to the main forums here and the rest of the internet. Because I don't mind if someone just enjoys the show and has a laugh about the absurdity of the performances. fair enough, c'est un 'entertainment', after all. But if there's actually people out there who think this guy is riding around cleanz because he cares for his health or something and only other riders dope... oh boy.

I'm absolutely sure these people exist. I shared a guardian article the other day by Jonathan Liew from after the WC. He basically argues that, yeah you can ask questions, you can even go down the rabbit hole of all the details on climbing times, watts per kilogram etc., but still come out of there an decide for yourself: yes, he is clean! It's the nicer reality to live in.

So if he can convince himself of that after he read enough details and arguments, who is gonna stop someone who is oblivious to any of this from believing he is clean?

Also: don't we live in the "cleanest" era of the sport, by positive tests standards? So how can he be doped?

That the jump in performance doesn't make sense, that the pure numbers don't make sense by standards once believed to be the limits of possible performance, that history teaches us some lessons and that EPO records are being broken. Only one thing, the records, will reach anyone who doesn't asks the question to begin with. But there are ready made answers for this: better nutrition, better training methods, better equipment. Doesn't matter that these are the same answers that were already given in Lances days (and probably before as well). What they achieve is that there is alsways an aesthetically and morally more pleasant narrative that is being supported by facts (there's some developement in all of these aspects always) and by being held up by the cheerleaders.

I think a view from the clinic is a very warped view of how Pogacar is perceived generally. Outside of cycling fan cycles I've hardly read any comments by anyone asking questions. And if it happened these questions were dismissed by others by the standard narrative (better science, better food, better tech).

It's also not very likely that the UCI will do anything about it any more, or the teams, because the lesson learned from last time was - and I am pretty convinced this is the case - that it's just not worth it. You can fight doping, maybe even effectively for a while, untill new products come in and the race starts anew. But you will only be punished for it as a buisness and as a sport, without any material reward what so ever.

So this might be the new normal for a long time, just like Sky was in it's dull and terrorizing, yet not as absurdly dominant, way.
 
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You know, whenever there's a new talented rider hitting the scene I'm excited. I remember being very excited when Pog had his breakthrough.
But at a certain point, there's a crossroads. When performances cross a certain threshold (which understandibly is different for each of us), you either continue to support him, or you start asking some questions. Now I'm already wayyy beyond that point. But even if I weren't, I certainly wouldnt be posting in his thread dozens of times a day, repeating over and over how great and almighty he is. It's almost as if people feel the need to shout their praises louder and louder just to supress their own doubts. It's like putting your fingers in your ears and shouting "GOAT GOAT GOAT!".

Ugh. I'm just glad the season is over. And I'll be honest: I'm not particularly looking forward to 2025 either. But I've been at it this long, I'll probably be watching again anyway.
 
The reality is most fans are casual fans and most casual fans just believe what they’re told, which is somewhat understandable. For the casual fan putting on the Tour de France or chatting about it in the break room at work, there might be a quick “hmm I wonder if these guys are doping like back in the Lance Armstrong days..?” then when the commentators remind them we’re not in the past anymore and everyone is clean now, they continue watching and forget about it.
 
Screenshot-20241012-180221-Chrome.jpg



He has done it again.
Dracula Gianetti
 
I'm absolutely sure these people exist. I shared a guardian article the other day by Jonathan Liew from after the WC. He basically argues that, yeah you can ask questions, you can even go down the rabbit hole of all the details on climbing times, watts per kilogram etc., but still come out of there an decide for yourself: yes, he is clean! It's the nicer reality to live in.

So if he can convince himself of that after he read enough details and arguments, who is gonna stop someone who is oblivious to any of this from believing he is clean?

Also: don't we live in the "cleanest" era of the sport, by positive tests standards? So how can he be doped?

That the jump in performance doesn't make sense, that the pure numbers don't make sense by standards once believed to be the limits of possible performance, that history teaches us some lessons and that EPO records are being broken. Only one thing, the records, will reach anyone who doesn't aks the question to begin with, that's the records. But there are ready made answers for this: better nutrition, better training methods, better equipment. Doesn't matter that these are the same answers that were already given in Lances days (and probably before as well). What they achieve is that there is alsways an aesthetically and morally more pleasant narrative that is being supported by facts (there's some developement in all of these aspects always) and by being held up by the cheerleaders.

I think a view from the clinic is a very warped view of how Pogacar is perceived generally. Outside of cycling fan cycles I've hardly read any comments by anyone asking questions. And if it happened these questions were dismissed by others by the standard narrative (better science, better food, better tech).

It's also not very likely that the UCI will do anything about it any more, or the teams, because the lesson learned from last time was - and I am pretty convinced this is the case - that it's just not worth it. You can fight doping, maybe even effectively for a while, untill new products come in and the race starts anew. But you will only be punished for it as a buisness and as a sport, without any material reward what so ever.

So this might be the new normal for a long time, just like Sky was in it's dull and terrorizing, yet not as absurdly dominant, way.
These people surely exist, especially in the new crop of fans. That Jonathan fellow though is a professional sports writer who is going to "argue" anything he is currently paid to argue. Does not mean he believes it. Most likely, he just does not care all that much where the objective truth lies. If his employers' expectations change, he will argue the opposite point of view without flinching.
 
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You know, whenever there's a new talented rider hitting the scene I'm excited. I remember being very excited when Pog had his breakthrough.
But at a certain point, there's a crossroads. When performances cross a certain threshold (which understandibly is different for each of us), you either continue to support him, or you start asking some questions. Now I'm already wayyy beyond that point. But even if I weren't, I certainly wouldnt be posting in his thread dozens of times a day, repeating over and over how great and almighty he is. It's almost as if people feel the need to shout their praises louder and louder just to supress their own doubts. It's like putting your fingers in your ears and shouting "GOAT GOAT GOAT!".

Ugh. I'm just glad the season is over. And I'll be honest: I'm not particularly looking forward to 2025 either. But I've been at it this long, I'll probably be watching again anyway.
I hear you.

I do find the repeated comments that are some variety of "we just need to bask in his greatness and enjoy what a wonderful time it is to be alive and watching this" to be, how should I say, a bit odd. I mean, I'm actually pretty happy most of the time, and I don't need professional bike racing to make me happy to be alive or not. And there are other aspects I enjoy about bike racing other than watching who wins. But I do find it perplexing that people want more of this, because of the implications.

On a slightly separate note, it was a very entertaining acceleration he had. I remember when Horner and others would lay down some incredible attacks and just obliterate the group I was in, and that was nothing compared to pogster level attacks.
 
Yea, I noticed that about his physique. He doesn't look freakishly thin as many pro cyclists do. He looks like a relatively thin man with defined muscles.
I mean the difference between two seasons is astonishing. Last time I have seen such incredible transformations in short period was many years ago - with certain UFC fighters like Vitor Belfort using Testosterone Replacement Therapy as legally allowed procedure.
 
If it really was an electrical motor in his bike - it should be possible to find out.
Get some guys with good IR cameras on the climbs. Or to make a PhD project out of this, electrical or machanical engineering. Let some grad student optimize an IR camera for exactely that purpose.
Or at some point someone will simply get hands on on of the bikes. However he is doing that.
 
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I'm more inclined to give the benefit of the doubt to riders like Pogacar who have a rounded programme throughout the year - riding in the one-day races - rather then spending long periods out of competition. I feel this is something that the most suspect riders (Ving, Indurain etc) do not do - and Armstrong of course,
 
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I'm more inclined to give the benefit of the doubt to riders like Pogacar who have a rounded programme throughout the year - riding in the one-day races - rather then spending long periods out of competition. I feel this is something that the most suspect riders (Ving, Indurain etc) do not do - and Armstrong of course,
If physical limits were respected the benefit of the doubt could still be there. For somebody who is riding all year you would also expect that peaking is a bit more difficult vs his competitors but apparantly he is always at his peak.
 
If physical limits were respected the benefit of the doubt could still be there. For somebody who is riding all year you would also expect that peaking is a bit more difficult vs his competitors but apparantly he is always at his peak.

I guess in this case it's more likely to be mechanical than chemical as there would be no need to spend long periods out of competition.
 
I'm more inclined to give the benefit of the doubt to riders like Pogacar who have a rounded programme throughout the year - riding in the one-day races - rather then spending long periods out of competition. I feel this is something that the most suspect riders (Ving, Indurain etc) do not do - and Armstrong of course,
Vingegaard who was flying all year last year?

Also, are we literally assuming doping patterns haven't changed in 30 years?
 
He is the best at everything. Doping, Talent, Panache, Charisma, Show and that's why he is the GOAT. Wasn't Merckx caught 3 times on a positive anti doping test? And he is still recognized by some people as the best ever.
If you think it doesn't matter, fair enough. But if you think it doesn't matter, why post here in the first place?
 
If you think it doesn't matter, fair enough. But if you think it doesn't matter, why post here in the first place?
Because the Clinic was made to spread knowledge and discuss respectfully about PED's, trying to find some answers to alien performances and how are they riding so fast (in this case Pogacar). But now, it's just a competition to see who screams louder "Doper", at least in this thread. Why are you questioning the reason I am here? Why are you not asking the same to those 2 or 3 haters who don't add nothing to this thread? (no talk about new PEDs, Pogacar's physiological ability and he improved so fast). Every race they are here saying "Doper, rides for dirty Matxin/Gianneti" I have every right to be here, this is not the Pogacar's Depreciation Thread but it seems sometimes.
Edit: you are here since 2010. Can you not see the difference between users like The Hitch and those who write here? The difference in knowledge, new information, medical content, etc?
 
@hrotha we could talk here about EPO gene, carbon monoxide inhaler, microdosing, etc. But no, here they just talk about dirty he is and that's it. No content at all. The clinic is no longer the best place to learn about sports medicine and how to increase performance.
But somehow I think I don't belong here, can't read all this nonsense and can't accept what the clinic has become.
Cheers, I will go back to road racing.
 
Why are you not asking the same to those 2 or 3 haters who don't add nothing to this thread? (no talk about new PEDs, Pogacar's physiological ability and he improved so fast). Every race they are here saying "Doper, rides for dirty Matxin/Gianneti" I have every right to be here, this is not the Pogacar's Depreciation Thread but it seems sometimes.
Edit: you are here since 2010. Can you not see the difference between users like The Hitch and those who write here? The difference in knowledge, new information, medical content, etc?
My dude that is literally all I've been posting about for like a week. I just don't think you're any better than them
 
Pog is just taking the piss at this point. It's ridiculous blatant but as long as UCI gets paid by UAE, all it's good. This sport is in shambles and watching it lately has been atrocious. Vuelta felt like a competition for normal people, thank god we at least got that.
Nevertheless, if the situation continues like this, the fans who watch cycling will start to be mad and lose interest in seeing cycling, the sponsors and organisations will start to lose money because of that. It's not that interesting for them, to see something like this, year after year. People will turn on this.

The best thing can happen for UAE and Pogacar, is , Bora, Quick step and Visma, be able to have at least a similar doping programm, to close the gap, and then things again be more similar like 2022 and 2023, where the races are won by more riders and not just one, because on that case the focus will not be just on UAE and Pogacar, and the fans will not turn so easily in seeing cycling, since is not always the same, winning races.

The problem is that i don't think this evolution year after year is sustainable, and one day, the bomb will drop, like in the past.
 
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