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Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

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Until now I've mostly steered free of participation in this thread.
This, as I prefer to stick to factual information and not conspiracy theories.

I.e., apart from my post after RvV '22 and my observations of his, in my eyes, highly suspicious final passage of Oude Kwaremont, which I have tried on my own body several times in attack mode and sections where I know the riders struggle with it - just as except for Pogi who for each of these small sections seemed to fly flawlessly over them as if he had a cushion of air in his tyres, gaining 2-3 secs each time.

But since Saturday the thoughts has been nagging violently in my head, hence finally I feel compelled to "unload" here.

My clear suspicion is some sort of motor doping, of which the UCI inspectors in an imperceptible way cannot catch during control checks.

Here my thoughts in particular have hovered about some kind of "a dynamic passive motor device" and not a static active motor.

After Lombardia and his chat with the motorcycle while in full attack, I don't even think the strongest biological syrup-plutonium diet can do it.

And can also be genetic doping. And then you don't need that many extra watts from a passive device to make the huge difference, everybody else being in fully red zone.

Or even worse:
An UAE-UCI collaboration à la Lance-Verbrüggen's "success collaboration".
Tacit acceptance with good dining from the UAE in your pocket and Gianetti as the wizard.
Toxic diet.

And although his competitors have been very diplomatic in interviews, it shows that they are not satisfied with the situation.
For example I noticed Jorgensen's Strava upload the other day (I think it was after the Giro dell'Emilia) titled "Zone 2 :p "

Argh, trying to write myself out of it didn't get any better.

Thanks God, it's winter break now.

Nota bene:
Sorry if these thoughts have already been reversed here and you have come closer to a clearer picture.
I will read up later.
I'd agree with all of that. If he was JUST simply doping his own body then they have found a magic potion capable of producing performances and watts never seen before.

But its that incessant ability to churn out huge power for kilometres on end whilst other top riders can only try to cling onto his wheel for a few hundred metres that make you question everything.
 
So how could you avoid detection when motor doping?
  • Change bikes before the finish
  • Remove the motor from the bike after the finish
  • Shield the motor from x-rays
  • Make the motor look unsuspicious on x-ray photos
  • "Conspiracy"
I don't think they do bike changes while Pogacar is cruising to victory (not sure, though).

The second one honestly seems like it could work - would explain Pogacar clinging on to his bike after Worlds.

I simply don't know enough about x-ray photography of bikes to say anything one way or another.

Conspiracies happen all the time, sports is no exception - far from it. The UCI, the UAE, the Mauro Gianetti... Doesn't seem like a stretch at all. Also perhaps the UCI have caught Pogacar and are furious, but they don't dare going public with it out of fear for their sport. And UAE are banking on that.
 
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Until now I've mostly steered free of participation in this thread.
This, as I prefer to stick to factual information and not conspiracy theories.

I.e., apart from my post after RvV '22 and my observations of his, in my eyes, highly suspicious final passage of Oude Kwaremont, which I have tried on my own body several times in attack mode and sections where I know the riders struggle with it - just as except for Pogi who for each of these small sections seemed to fly flawlessly over them as if he had a cushion of air in his tyres, gaining 2-3 secs each time.

But since Saturday the thoughts has been nagging violently in my head, hence finally I feel compelled to "unload" here.

My clear suspicion is some sort of motor doping, of which the UCI inspectors in an imperceptible way cannot catch during control checks.

Here my thoughts in particular have hovered about some kind of "a dynamic passive motor device" and not a static active motor.

After Lombardia and his chat with the motorcycle while in full attack, I don't think even the strongest biological syrup-plutonium diet can do it.

And can also be genetic doping. And then you don't need that many extra watts from a passive device to make the huge difference, everybody else being in fully red zone.

Or even worse:
An UAE-UCI collaboration à la Lance-Verbrüggen's "success collaboration".
Tacit acceptance with good dining from the UAE in your pocket and Gianetti as the wizard.
Toxic diet.

And although his competitors have been very diplomatic in interviews, it shows that they are not satisfied with the situation.
For example I noticed Jorgensen's Strava upload the other day (I think it was after the Giro dell'Emilia) titled "Zone 2 :p "

Argh, trying to write myself out of it didn't get any better.

Thanks God, it's winter break now.

Nota bene:
Sorry if these thoughts have already been reversed here and you have come closer to a clearer picture.
I will read up later.

I'd started to think motors seriously when I started seeing huge gaps being pulled on flat sections. Vinge did it in Combloux as well. Pog did it on Saturday in Lombardia. It's like these riders are flying.
 
It’s quite simple for me. Despite the extreme level and consistency of performances, the brutal nature of his attacks and the extended length of them, Pogacar doesn’t suffer on the bike. He has no pain cave to retreat to because he has no apparent need of one. He rides his bike like a man not subject to the laws of physics and biology, looking as fresh when he finishes as when he started, not collapsing across the line after another record breaking performance but gliding across it as if on a ride to the boulangerie to pickup a baguette. Able to converse immediately with everyone around him as if he was sitting on a chair in a cafe passing the time of day. This paradox, these indicators of compromise if you want, is stark evidence by themselves that whatever is going on here isn’t natural. Show us the proof shout his supporters. The evidence, ladies and gentlemen, is right before your eyes.
 
Conspiracies happen all the time, sports is no exception - far from it. The UCI, the UAE, the Mauro Gianetti... Doesn't seem like a stretch at all. Also perhaps the UCI have caught Pogacar and are furious, but they don't dare going public with it out of fear for their sport. And UAE are banking on that.
Why not UAE "influencing" WADA instead of UCI? UCI follow WADA's rules after all and there's a lot of secrecy with testing.
 
His riding on flats during solos has improved dramatically this year. He was never a top flat rider, TT or otherwise, but now is able to put minutes on everyone, even when they work together and don’t burn themselves trying to follow on the climb.

This is like watching an elite power lifter who has the best squat and deadlift but only a top 15 bench for years suddenly become the bench WR holder.
 
I'd started to think motors seriously when I started seeing huge gaps being pulled on flat sections. Vinge did it in Combloux as well. Pog did it on Saturday in Lombardia. It's like these riders are flying.
The impact is bigger when climbing. This is because on the flats the dominant force is drag while on a mountain climb it's gravity. in math terms: power ~ velocity^3 on the flats while on a steep climb power ~ velocity. An example: a 400 watt effort + 40 watt coming from a motor results approximately in a 3% speed increase on the flat and a 10% on a steep climb.
 
Nah, I still don't believe you can hide a motor system generating significant boost. If true that would already have been tried in Formula 1 with far bigger budgets than even UAE (Formula 1 team budgets are restricted to $US 135mil). UAE's budget is €55 million to €60 million.
The F1 cost cap of $135 million does not include driver salaries, three highest-paid staff members salaries, travel expenses, marketing, bonuses and more. Even now, the big teams spend over $300 million a year. Max's or Hamilton's salary alone is bigger than the UAE's entire annual cycling budget. Next year at Ferrari, Hamilton will earn twice as much as the UAE's yearly budget. Even Adrian Newey will earn more than UAE's budget.

Cycling is such a low-cost sport compared to top-level sports, but somehow the 'clinic' regulars are convinced that this sport is the main driving force for undetectable small motors and batteries that can deliver significant performance (+ gene doping). Kids are watching too many dumb hollywood movies these days....

If we compare Pogacar 2023 to Pogacar 2024, he is 100% out of nowhere.

If we compare Froome 2011 early August to Froome 2011 late August, he is 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000% out of nowhere https://www.procyclingstats.com/rider/christopher-froome/2011

His riding on flats during solos has improved dramatically this year. He was never a top flat rider, TT or otherwise, but now is able to put minutes on everyone, even when they work together and don’t burn themselves trying to follow on the climb.

This is like watching an elite power lifter who has the best squat and deadlift but only a top 15 bench for years suddenly become the bench WR holder.

He doesn't really beat others by minutes, his World Championship win was much less convincing than Remco or MvdP before him
 
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The F1 cost cap of $135 million does not include driver salaries, three highest-paid staff members salaries, travel expenses, marketing, bonuses and more. Even now, the big teams spend over $300 million a year. Max's or Hamilton's salary alone is bigger than the UAE's entire annual cycling budget. Next year at Ferrari, Hamilton will earn twice as much as the UAE's yearly budget. Even Adrian Newey will earn more than UAE's budget.

Cycling is such a low-cost sport compared to top-level sports, but somehow the 'clinic' regulars are convinced that this sport is the main driving force for undetectable small motors and batteries that can deliver significant performance (+ gene doping). Kids are watching too many dumb hollywood movies these days....



If we compare Froome 2011 early August to Froome 2011 late August, he is 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000% out of nowhere https://www.procyclingstats.com/rider/christopher-froome/2011



He doesn't really beat others by minutes, his World Championship win was much less convincing than Remco or MvdP before him

It was just freewheeling he did. As soon as they came within 40 seconds he decided to put in another 100w extra. With Remco, he was gone and nobody did anything after that. They just let him go.
 
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Nah, I still don't believe you can hide a motor system generating significant boost. If true that would already have been tried in Formula 1 with far bigger budgets than even UAE (Formula 1 team budgets are restricted to $US 135mil). UAE's budget is €55 million to €60 million.

Word significant means something completely different for F1 and cycling. In cycling a 20 watts motor gives a big advantage of 0.3 w/kg. In F1 it's...0.03 horse power.
 
So how could you avoid detection when motor doping?
  • Change bikes before the finish
  • Remove the motor from the bike after the finish
  • Shield the motor from x-rays
  • Make the motor look unsuspicious on x-ray photos
  • "Conspiracy"
I don't think they do bike changes while Pogacar is cruising to victory (not sure, though).

The second one honestly seems like it could work - would explain Pogacar clinging on to his bike after Worlds.

I simply don't know enough about x-ray photography of bikes to say anything one way or another.

Conspiracies happen all the time, sports is no exception - far from it. The UCI, the UAE, the Mauro Gianetti... Doesn't seem like a stretch at all. Also perhaps the UCI have caught Pogacar and are furious, but they don't dare going public with it out of fear for their sport. And UAE are banking on that.
A big motor and battery set up would need the frame and you would see them using an x-ray but if you can put it in the hub of the rear wheel you could hide it from detection. A 50 watt bldc motor weights 100g. An optimized lipo battery delivering 50 watts during 30 min adds another 100g. Add gears and a motor controller and you end up with ~300g in a compact package.

Heat dissipation is only ~5-10 watts and cooling could be quick at the finish. The brake disk will light up much more.

Motor control could be without input from the rider. The motor could activate and deactivate conditionally (based on speed, acceleration, power, current, time ...) or wireless with for example a bluetooth connection from the team car or somebody positioned along the route. If there is mechanical doping involved (still a big if), I hink a complete independent unit without external control is the most likely setup.

So, yes, to me it looks feasible ... and sick.
 
By it looking normal on x-ray photos, or by it being shielded from x-rays in the hub, or by simply changing the wheel before the test?
By being much more difficult to see and recognize on the x-ray due to its fitting in the aluminium hub with also the metal axle inside and the cassette blocking the frontal view. I don't know if it works but I assume they are more focussed on the frame to look for tube motors and batteries.
 
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Might be nothing, but on the finish straight of Lombardia Poggie is at one point very focused on pressing the bike computer off. He does it many times, almost like wanting to make sure something is off before he lifts his bike in the air for celebration. I was wondering it even live and checked again to make sure. Propably just shutting it early cause of the celebration, but still looked a bit out of the ordinary compared to the way the riders normally stop their ride recording.

Like I said propably nothing, but I immediately thought about the motor theory 😅
 
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So then the only person you can rule out of the whole field who uses a motor is Pogacar, because that would surely be the stupidest way to use a small limited motor for a 100km/long solo victories
Not if you use it to make a big gap first and use it stay within lactate thresholds to stay relatively fresh compared to the others. Keeping the gap is indeed difficult against a group if the battery is finally drained. During the WC RR he had difficulties to keep the gap and he looked exhausted at the finish so maybe he miscalculated his effort ;-)
 
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Might be nothing, but on the finish straight of Lombardia Poggie is at one point very focused on pressing the bike computer off. He does it many times, almost like wanting to make sure something is off before he lifts his bike in the air for celebration. I was wondering it even live and checked again to make sure. Propably just shutting it early cause of the celebration, but still looked a bit out of the ordinary compared to the way the riders normally stop their ride recording.

Like I said propably nothing, but I immediately thought about the motor theory 😅
Did the same at Worlds...
 
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Not if you use it to make a big gap first and use it stay within lactate thresholds to stay relatively fresh compared to the others. Keeping the gap is indeed difficult against a group if the battery is finally drained. During the WC RR he had difficulties to keep the gap and he looked exhausted at the finish so maybe he miscalculated his effort ;-)
It doesn't make any sense then, mate. The small motor + small battery you described will hardly help at all. Guys working together behind you in the slipstream will probably save more than the motor will give. If you are using a motor you will want to decide the race close to the finish. There is absolutely no point in risking an extremely long solo effort.

A little bit of power helps a lot if you want to keep a high speed on the flat. I often ride an e-bike, and the e-assist makes a big difference when I ride just below its 25km/h limit, even when I practically don't use it.

But he's on a 7kg bike, not a 14kg e-bike with a 4kg motor and a 2kg battery
 
then when the commentators remind them we’re not in the past anymore and everyone is clean now, they continue watching and forget about it.
Is this really the case? I say very few even new fans take any notice of what commentators say. I mean I've been watching pro cycling since about 1992 during the unrestricted EPO era. Back then we all accepted they were doping. The world's most famous cycling commentator Phil Liggett was saying the peloton was clean back in 1992! That doesn't mean he or anyone else anyone believed it. I don't believe fans or new people to the sport are that stupid or can't have a basic understanding of sports physiology - like how a clean rider can destroy climbing times from the EPO era.
 
It doesn't make any sense then, mate. The small motor + small battery you described will hardly help at all. Guys working together behind you in the slipstream will probably save more than the motor will give. If you are using a motor you will want to decide the race close to the finish. There is absolutely no point in risking an extremely long solo effort.



But he's on a 7kg bike, not a 14kg e-bike with a 4kg motor and a 2kg battery
So, according to you, a motor giving him say 50-70, or even 30-40, watts wouldn't help? Well, I've got news for you, it would be a game changer.
 
Might be nothing, but on the finish straight of Lombardia Poggie is at one point very focused on pressing the bike computer off. He does it many times, almost like wanting to make sure something is off before he lifts his bike in the air for celebration. I was wondering it even live and checked again to make sure. Propably just shutting it early cause of the celebration, but still looked a bit out of the ordinary compared to the way the riders normally stop their ride recording.

Like I said propably nothing, but I immediately thought about the motor theory 😅
Pog posts his rides on Strava. More likely he was saving the ride.
 
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Is this really the case? I say very few even new fans take any notice of what commentators say. I mean I've been watching pro cycling since about 1992 during the unrestricted EPO era. Back then we all accepted they were doping. The world's most famous cycling commentator Phil Liggett was saying the peloton was clean back in 1992! That doesn't mean he or anyone else anyone believed it. I don't believe fans or new people to the sport are that stupid or can't have a basic understanding of sports physiology - like how a clean rider can destroy climbing times from the EPO era.
In the english speaking world. When someone like Johan Bruyneel recently says Pogacar is clean and that its all down to superior talent, you just know we're being taken for fools.
 
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