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Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

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It doesn't make any sense then, mate. The small motor + small battery you described will hardly help at all. Guys working together behind you in the slipstream will probably save more than the motor will give. If you are using a motor you will want to decide the race close to the finish. There is absolutely no point in risking an extremely long solo effort.



But he's on a 7kg bike, not a 14kg e-bike with a 4kg motor and a 2kg battery
Of course it will help. Doing a 100 km attack was not the best use of his extra power but it will still help. We know how eager Pogacar was to win the WC. The legs felt good and he had to go. Maybe his motor was activated accidentaly so he had no choice but go 😄
 
Of course it will help. Doing a 100 km attack was not the best use of his extra power but it will still help. We know how eager Pogacar was to win the WC. The legs felt good and he had to go. Maybe his motor was activated accidentaly so he had no choice but go 😄

WC, 4 laps to go:

Teddy: What the hell? I can't slow down but it's too early to attack.
Giani (with RC in his hand): Come on, boy. Let's give people entertainment.
 
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Yup. This should have been the baseline expectation to anyone who has ridden themselves and/or know the basic principles of training. Especially at the pro levels of loading, the secret really is that there is no secret. A good coach will ensure the athletes absorb as much as they can without digging a hole. It's as much art as science for sure.

I know it is a lot to assume mou was not talking from their backside, but let's pretend he wasn't. Even so, the changes Pog allegedly made were (IMHO) a) entirely sensible and b) nowhere near something super special or c) not enough to explain the level up.

Long threshold intervals with time in zone progressing session by session, or 40/20sec on/off blocks for instance have been a staple for lowly humps like myself for about two decades. So not very exclusive or revolutionary.

When mvdp published his 2022 spring workouts on strava there was absolutely nothing out of the ordinary in it, save for the quantities and frequency of intensity. It's just that the pros can absorb insane amounts of load and improve at a jaw dropping rate.

Somehow Pog fans bought the revolution in training explanation, though. It became a commonplace on this forum too.

It's funny because at first the now bad mouthed San Millan zone 2 thing was already used to explain his performances. So the "new regime" already is the second super special one. The alleged changes were more fine tuning than a change of philosophy.
Yup
 
Did the same at Worlds...
Apropos; A bit of analysis of the Slovenian antics after the finish at the WCRR:

After MvdP's group crosses the line we see a distinctly dry-looking Pogster celebrating in a huddle of Team Slovenia guys, a handsome wizened looking fella hugs him and taps him on the shoulder to point him to where he has to go, while Pogi, who is honing in on a man with a massive rucksack, pays him no heed. Rucksack-man, who lets go of the Pogmobile, opens a water bottle and hands it to he who is Poggers, soon resulting in a distinctly wet appearance. Just before the metamorphosis commences we're greeted with the sudden appearance of a gentleman with UCI-logos on his clothes rather than those of NiceHash who grabs a paternal hold of the Pogical shoulders gets startled by the waterfall and, for a time, chooses to uphold social norms. Meanwhile rucksack-man hugs another staffer who was making sure the bike didn't fall to the ground, and gets a firm grip on said vehicle once more.

Following a brief look at a panting Matthew of the Pole's desperate attempt to lie down on his bike, we see that Father UCI has once again found his way to the back of Pog, which he carresses and pushes along to official duties awaiting. Pog-Man hands rucksack-man his helmet and sunnies and the entourage goes on it's merry way.

Once the action, which has once again been disrupted by MvdP - this time using his top tube to split his bum-cheeks and ball-sack respectively - the Pogimon suddenly goes barging through a wall of press photographers, and runs away from his UCI daddy towards his famed non-Olympian girlfriend, and as he embraces her he is also embraced by cameras.

On the perimeter of this manifestation of love and fame we find the devoted squire of this tale, rucksack-man, desperately seeking his beloved knight with wanton disregard for the well-bred carbon steed entrusted to his care. A new rough, unloving agent of the UCI has seized this opportunity to seize the bike. Seized by fear a private, sporting a Slovenian flag patch on his shoulder, who has come into possesion of the helmet and visor of Sir Pogacelot, scrambles around the stocky thief to regain control of the bike. A heated argument between the two ensues, the seemingly rather disinterested man, who had been holding the bike while filming the happy couple, points to the bike computer, gives his subordinate an order, resumes filming for a while until he is seemingly dragged back into the discussion, which now mainly consists of the UCI representative shouting at the man who is now holding the bike. At the same time a seemingly even more disinterested member of the press corp holding his phone up, hand in pocket, looking down notices the commotion, turns to the bike, crouches and sticks his phone right into the seat tube.

Back in the eye of the storm the UCI-Father has found his way back to his Prodigal Son and pushes him along once more. Now rucksack-man makes his trumphant return and stretches his arm across to Urska, thus seperating athlete from governing body. This is not appreciated, and rucksack-man is told as much.
 
Do you guys think that motor doping is actually being used? I just refuse to believe it.
It's a perfectly fair question in this subforum and a perfectly fair point of view to have IMO.
I too want a starting point with the riders being innocent until proven guilty. And I try to abstract from anything else while watching the races.

But now that you ask, abstraction sometimes comes difficult to me in relation to what I'm witnessing.

So to answer you:
Yes, for the past half decade or so I have had strong suspicions of an advanced form of motor doping. As I mentioned in my previous post, in recent years my thoughts have revolved strongly around an advanced form of passive dynamic device, which is difficult to track.

As well as other suspicions that I try to reason my way through, as summary images that may possibly provide logic.

I'm also not much for scattered shots with the hip and division "you're either for or against", or unconsciously hitching a ride on a train, perhaps in fear of feeling ignorant, but leaving a shadow of unnecessary attacks.

On the contrary I like that various observations are shared, followed by personal considerations in a healthy debate climate.

In my eyes that's what this subforum is made for and what I like it for.
 
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We have to look forward. What do you guys think about Pablo Torres and his absurd climb of the Colle della Finestre in the Tour de l'Avenir this year?
I'm getting Pog vibes. A good young rider, but not exceptional, suddenly outperforms after signing for UAE.
There's a very interesting potential comparison between Torres and Jarno Widar. They were born a couple of days apart.
Widar has outperformed Torres, except in the Tour de l'Avenir.
What can we expect next season? Will they evolve at a similar rate or will UAE perform its magic with Torres?
He signed a very long contract, so he has Gianetti's trust, whatever that may be.
 
Do you still have room for another refugee?

I'm not a doctor or an engineer, so I'm not going to repeat what many of you here have mentioned (traditional doping, marine worms and other weird things, genetic doping, electric/magnetic propulsion...). On the other hand, I do read French (well... I'm French - sorry for that) and I can only invite you to go and read the French version of David Lappartient's Wikipedia page (it's such a shame it's so succinct in English, luckily online translators are quite good by now). And a few press articles if you can find any. It might give you some ideas. As far as I'm concerned, I'm not counting on him to find motors. I'm not counting on him to find anything. If he becomes president of the IOC, Pogi may run and win the 2028 Olympics. He may also run and win the 2032 ones. Four-time Olympic medallist, that would be something.

At the moment I can't find enough time to go and speculate about this three-speed cycling in the State of the peloton 2024 thread, but be sure I don't forget Vingegaard and his totally panicked face when he looked at his power meter at the finish in Combloux. At the time it was +20 watts (as he said in an interview once he'd calmed down), but since then things have obviously improved a lot.

For 2025, the suspense remains. Will the second-speed riders continue to toil like slave labour behind tricked-out bikes without complaining? Will Remco turn to the Dark side or drown his ambitions in a pot of B&J? Will the third-speed riders decide to go on strike? Given the exponential increase in speeds, will the UCI make new protective equipment compulsory? I can't wait to find out.
 
We have to look forward. What do you guys think about Pablo Torres and his absurd climb of the Colle della Finestre in the Tour de l'Avenir this year?
I'm getting Pog vibes. A good young rider, but not exceptional, suddenly outperforms after signing for UAE.
There's a very interesting potential comparison between Torres and Jarno Widar. They were born a couple of days apart.
Widar has outperformed Torres, except in the Tour de l'Avenir.
What can we expect next season? Will they evolve at a similar rate or will UAE perform its magic with Torres?
He signed a very long contract, so he has Gianetti's trust, whatever that may be.
Torres colle de la finestre climb is really legendary stuff: 6.09 W/kg for 1 hour! This 18 yo did 25 W more than Blackmore for the full 1 hour climb. It's basically all in the same ballpark. Pog is adding ~0.4-0.5 W/kg to his 30-40 min climbs compared to 2023 so about 30 W extra.
 
By being much more difficult to see and recognize on the x-ray due to its fitting in the aluminium hub with also the metal axle inside and the cassette blocking the frontal view. I don't know if it works but I assume they are more focussed on the frame to look for tube motors and batteries.
Why would you assume that? A bike wheel (or a frame in general) is not a very mysterious mechanism. And why would people working on this not look there as well. Generally I find it hard to believe that you could actually hide this stuff from someone actively looking for it time and time again? Seems less plausible than him being the strongest rider.
 
Because I don't want to spoil the fun in the echo-chamber that the Pogacar-thread (which just basically sounds like a very loud threesome at this point) I'll put it here:

What Pog does right now, is a proper snooze fest. It's so predictable and boring (like F1 in Schumacher Ferrari era). You know, he can jump anytime he wants and no one can follow. Another xx km solo for the win. If that's not boring, i don't know what it is.

Every dominance like that becomes boring quick. Fanboys are happy, because they only chase the latest winners and will climb on the next bandwagon, when Pog slows down. And Pog real fans are happy for sure. Every other cyclists fan will probably skip the next race Pog is in, because why bother watching one guy winning and other kids playing in the background?

Good thing is, nothing lasts forever and cycling can change quickly.


(Moderator note: moved, along with the following reply, from Roglic thread)
Yes, a lot of people seem to be asleep.
I'm putting whatever is left of my faith in your last sentence..

(and just to reiterate: no, I don't think Pog is the only one)
 
So the problem lies with us not Pogacar. We're sick!
https://cyclinguptodate.com/cycling...-from-enjoying-the-greatness-of-tadej-pogacar
"All behavioral, psychosociological and neurological studies will confirm it, the cycling spectator is eternally dissatisfied. The reason for this state is now known, it is the result of the association of two serious pathologies, one called 'Merckxism Syndrome' and the other called 'Armstrongian Trauma'," Marc Fayet explains in his Cyclism'Actu column. ... So far, Pogacar's dominance has been very Merckx-esque. So much that many would refuse to accept someone winning so easily: "It would seem that in 2024, these two dormant diseases will suddenly emerge to become one and will take over the entire cycling world, preventing us from properly enjoying the advent of the greatest cycling champion in the world," Fayet points out.
Original article at https://www.cyclismactu.net/news-cyclisme-chronique-marc-fayet-pogacar-syndrome-du-merckx-traumatisme-armstrong-84656.html
 
We have to look forward. What do you guys think about Pablo Torres and his absurd climb of the Colle della Finestre in the Tour de l'Avenir this year?
I'm getting Pog vibes. A good young rider, but not exceptional, suddenly outperforms after signing for UAE.
There's a very interesting potential comparison between Torres and Jarno Widar. They were born a couple of days apart.
Widar has outperformed Torres, except in the Tour de l'Avenir.
What can we expect next season? Will they evolve at a similar rate or will UAE perform its magic with Torres?
He signed a very long contract, so he has Gianetti's trust, whatever that may be.
Ayuso (so far) is proof that this is still a betting game and not even UAE can just wave a magic wand to get the new Merckx. But that Avenir performance was unsettling. It’s way too early to know how long Pogacar will be at the top but there’s no doubt they are already looking for the next Pogacar and will have no qualms moving on to unleash the next world beater when the time comes. The team is obviously strong enough to get a number of guys into GT podium shape already if need be, but they will want another killer. If Torres suddenly starts handing bottles to little kids, watch out.
 
Why would you assume that? A bike wheel (or a frame in general) is not a very mysterious mechanism. And why would people working on this not look there as well. Generally I find it hard to believe that you could actually hide this stuff from someone actively looking for it time and time again? Seems less plausible than him being the strongest rider.
I agree that I don’t believe motors can be hidden from any competent mechanic. What is more plausible IMO is that they are not looking very hard. All it would take is to check the bikes of top three finishers in every race or stage. Bottom brackets are the most likely place to hide a motor. Easy peasy for any trained mechanic. Instead we see hype over x-ray machines and thermal detectors. I don’t know why but I worry that this expensive technology is a smokescreen to avoid doing very simple checks.
 
I too want a starting point with the riders being innocent until proven guilty. And I try to abstract from anything else while watching the races.
I think it's legitimate to bear in mind that the legal standard of "innocent until proven guilty" doesn't have the same validity in the sphere of personal opinion that it does in the court of law. Anyone is free to draw their own conclusions, based on the history of the sport, experience and reasonable doubt and nobody, on this alone, gets sanctioned. When guys like Gianetti-Matxin, the reason for this thread, are involved and the confluence of outcomes regarding the above mentioned criteria are negative, together with what is actually taking place on the road; namely, EPO enhanced climbing records are literally being destroyed, then you simply cannot presume innocence. It would simply defy all reason.
 
I agree that I don’t believe motors can be hidden from any competent mechanic. What is more plausible IMO is that they are not looking very hard. All it would take is to check the bikes of top three finishers in every race or stage. Bottom brackets are the most likely place to hide a motor. Easy peasy for any trained mechanic. Instead we see hype over x-ray machines and thermal detectors. I don’t know why but I worry that this expensive technology is a smokescreen to avoid doing very simple checks.
To add to your first thought. Any form of a motor must obey the laws of physics. Assuming that its working principle is based on the EM force (and not, say, anti-gravity :))there must be a magnetic flux through some surface and it must be detectable.
I believe the reason the authorities are using (pushing for the use) of X-ray scanners (again EM force) is because there is no need to disassemble the bike. I remember there was a GT stage win where they disassembled Rogla's bike and nobody from the team was very happy about the job they did.
 
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Ad motors:

So if it is motors they've got to be widespread to explain the overall jumps in performance by many a rider. If that's the case, the difference in performance could be explained by difference in motors. Yet: how realistic is it to have motors that are really far away from each other in power output? But if they are close to each other in performance, Pogacar seems to rest inexplainable IMO, because his advantage wouldn't be that huge without his own power being the most dominant aspect?
Also if they cooperate only with UAE e.g., what's the point in making Pogacar so dominant? It's not good for the product is it? It's not even good for the product Pogacar and you risk getting enough outisde attention, that someone might just start looking to closely.
 
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By being much more difficult to see and recognize on the x-ray due to its fitting in the aluminium hub with also the metal axle inside and the cassette blocking the frontal view. I don't know if it works but I assume they are more focussed on the frame to look for tube motors and batteries.
That's why my thoughts recent years have hovered around a possible passive dynamic device, i.e. built in the frame topology, maybe adding just a tiny bit of magnetic flux adding maybe just 20-30 watts, but of which is decisive, his competitors being on the limit.

But just stray nagging concerns from here.

I have no idea how UCI do the tests.
However, as an engineer myself for nearly 30 years, I've witnessed several jawdropping not-so-thoughtfull testbenches through the years.

And my additional suspicion is, if the testers observe some obscure things on the bikes, that maybe even with blind-eye acceptance from UCI with good dining from the UAE.

Thats my honest worrying thoughts...
 
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Everyone of you need to take a step back.

We will not get any evidence before we have real data. Weight, watt numbers for a start. Of course the guy is doped, there is absolutely no doubt about it - but the product might not be on the list. That doesn't matter in my opinion but that's just me.

It also seemed everyone had bought into the zone 2 story. ***. No one is pushing 320-340 watts for 4-5 hours in training. People eat everything they're served it seems.

Another bad story for cycling. Pog and Mauro. What a *** show.
 
Everyone of you need to take a step back.

We will not get any evidence before we have real data. Weight, watt numbers for a start. Of course the guy is doped, there is absolutely no doubt about it - but the product might not be on the list. That doesn't matter in my opinion but that's just me.

It also seemed everyone had bought into the zone 2 story. ***. No one is pushing 320-340 watts for 4-5 hours in training. People eat everything they're served it seems.

Another bad story for cycling. Pog and Mauro. What a *** show.
Why isn't he pushing 320-340 watts for 5 hours? I really believe it is true and this is a proof something new is on the menu of top riders again. He is so much better than everyone else so he is really pushing some incredible watts even on flat roads. We already have interviews with UAE riders and some of them said they don't like to train with Pogi because he would burn them after a couple of hours.
 
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It also seemed everyone had bought into the zone 2 story. ***. No one is pushing 320-340 watts for 4-5 hours in training. People eat everything they're served it seems.

Pogacar's anaerobic threshold seems to be around 440-450 watts (6.8-6.9 w/kg). I think it's plausible that 320-340 watts (70-75% of his AnT) is still the upper part of his zone2 (near aerobic threshold).
 
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Why isn't he pushing 320-340 watts for 5 hours? I really believe it is true and this is a proof something new is on the menu of top riders again. He is so much better than everyone else so he is really pushing some incredible watts even on flat roads. We already have interviews with UAE riders and some of them said they don't like to train with Pogi because he would burn them after a couple of hours.
No, he is not. You can say that 273747 times everyday, and will still not be true, because he wasn't "so much better than everyone else" in the previous seasons.

If you are not so much better than the others in the previous seasons, and suddendly you are so much better, then something is really wrong, and the history of cycling tell us, this will finish in a bad way for everybody.
 
No, he is not. You can say that 273747 times everyday, and will still not be true, because he wasn't "so much better than everyone else" in the previous seasons.

If you are not so much better than the others in the previous seasons, and suddendly you are so much better, then something is really wrong, and the history of cycling tell us, this will finish in a bad way for everybody.

Vingo wasn't much better than everybody else during Tours 2022-2023 because he wasn't in 2020-2021?
 
Hold onto your hats as things might get even more "extreme" -

https://cycling.today/pogacar-still-has-margin-for-improvement-says-mauro-gianetti/#google_vignette
Tadej Pogacar has not yet reached his physical peak, UAE Emirates team manager Mauro Gianetti says.

“He’s still so young. He’s still 26 and we know that riders can improve physically until at least their thirties. It’s also necessary that he continues to develop, because the competition does that too. I think that’s especially true for guys like Remco Evenepoel, and the young guys who are coming up.”