Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Extinction]

Not even Greg Lemond questions anything, so he must be totally legit.😇

View: https://open.spotify.com/episode/5mbEUTk8qA67dozOLrWWSK?si=sA7BL3XhRyC7e_TRT1nVAw&t=661

 

[Pannenkooky]

So, if Pogi produces more "unhuman" results at next year's super hard TDF, do you think UCI will have to cave and launch a doping investigation? With Pogi, it's becoming increasingly obvious something is not normal, and you can't chalk it up to super calculated clever team tactics--when he attacks he just goes by himself, sometimes making his teammates work harder than others think they should, like this year's TDF stage 11. How long before he *really* gets investigated?

 

[Nick2413]

So, if Pogi produces more "unhuman" results at next year's super hard TDF, do you think UCI will have to cave and launch a doping investigation?

Yes, on Miguel Angel Lopez some random Latin American rider with a couple .pro wins.

 

[ManicJack]

So, if Pogi produces more "unhuman" results at next year's super hard TDF, do you think UCI will have to cave and launch a doping investigation? With Pogi, it's becoming increasingly obvious something is not normal, and you can't chalk it up to super calculated clever team tactics--when he attacks he just goes by himself, sometimes making his teammates work harder than others think they should, like this year's TDF stage 11. How long before he *really* gets investigated?

Based on what exactly?

 

[Cookster15]

So, if Pogi produces more "unhuman" results at next year's super hard TDF, do you think UCI will have to cave and launch a doping investigation? With Pogi, it's becoming increasingly obvious something is not normal, and you can't chalk it up to super calculated clever team tactics--when he attacks he just goes by himself, sometimes making his teammates work harder than others think they should, like this year's TDF stage 11. How long before he *really* gets investigated?

It is spelt “inhuman”.

Launch a doping investigation? What are the existing doping controls for then?

In fact, I am pretty sure Pogacar gets tested more because he wins more? So you are claiming the UCI don’t test him or are not tracking his blood profiles? Please come up with something concrete else this is as bad as the motor doping nonsense.

 

[ppanther92]

So, if Pogi produces more "unhuman" results at next year's super hard TDF, do you think UCI will have to cave and launch a doping investigation? With Pogi, it's becoming increasingly obvious something is not normal, and you can't chalk it up to super calculated clever team tactics--when he attacks he just goes by himself, sometimes making his teammates work harder than others think they should, like this year's TDF stage 11. How long before he *really* gets investigated?

You sound like Armstrong calling Verbruggen - “hey, this Mayo gut set a new record on Ventoux at Dauphine. Thats not normal. Do something.”

The automatic procedure for increased testing if you win a lot is anyway in place through mandatory tests for race winners.

 

[romanzat]

Some fishy Pogi's situation, when 1+1 isn't 2:
- TDF 2020 ITT LPDBF: 1:21 ahead of 2nd, he had no watt meter on TT bike
- ITT TA 2022: Pogi averaging 320 W and been in the red zone for 2 % total time. Ganna averaging 530 W and been in the red zone 86 % of total time. Ganna was 2nd, Pogi 3rd only 7 sec behind Ganna (found on reddit)
- most stage wins in Giro 2024 and TDF 2024: no signs od fatigure whatsoever despite breaking all the records
- TDF 2024: constatly you could see around 30 % less calories burned during mountain stages than his main rivals
- Lombardia 2024: Remco had same watts as Pogi in the valley after last climb, but he gained 2 minutes over Remco. This is from cyclinguptodate: Although Evenepoel was a clear second, finishing well ahead of the race for 3rd, the Soudal - Quick-Step leader was in turn, clearly distanced by Pogacar by the time the finish line arrived. "There was about an Instagram post by Velon with his average wattage of the last hour and a half. That couldn't be right, because I had the same wattage and was three minutes behind. So I sent him: I want to know what you really pedalled," recalls Evenepoel. "Tadej didn't tell me

 

[Nick2413]

Some fishy Pogi's situation, when 1+1 isn't 2:
- TDF 2020 ITT LPDBF: 1:21 ahead of 2nd, he had no watt meter on TT bike
- ITT TA 2022: Pogi averaging 320 W and been in the red zone for 2 % total time. Ganna averaging 530 W and been in the red zone 86 % of total time. Ganna was 2nd, Pogi 3rd only 7 sec behind Ganna (found on reddit)
- most stage wins in Giro 2024 and TDF 2024: no signs od fatigure whatsoever despite breaking all the records
- TDF 2024: constatly you could see around 30 % less calories burned during mountain stages than his main rivals
- Lombardia 2024: Remco had same watts as Pogi in the valley after last climb, but he gained 2 minutes over Remco. This is from cyclinguptodate: Although Evenepoel was a clear second, finishing well ahead of the race for 3rd, the Soudal - Quick-Step leader was in turn, clearly distanced by Pogacar by the time the finish line arrived. "There was about an Instagram post by Velon with his average wattage of the last hour and a half. That couldn't be right, because I had the same wattage and was three minutes behind. So I sent him: I want to know what you really pedalled," recalls Evenepoel. "Tadej didn't tell me

Did they actually publish official power data for TA 2022 or Lombardia 2024?

 

[romanzat]

Did they actually publish official power data for TA 2022 or Lombardia 2024?

Velon data. Guess they have some sensors on riders bike?

 

[romanzat]

Velon data. Guess they have some sensors on riders bike?

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[Oldermanish]

To quote Oldmanish in the Pogacar pro racing thread: "That critics of Pogacar cite Jonas' breakthrough wattage metrics to confirm some illicit supplementation by Tadej is pure BS".

Well, do you believe this says nothing and that Pogacar is clean?

At any rate, now we read UAE, a state backed team, is going to pay him 8 million euros per year until 2030. The UCI receives money from UAE, in an appalling conflict of interests that knows no shame. Like I said, this is what happens when you allow a Gianetti to have unlimited access to sport-washing petrol dollars. "On my word, unleash hell".

You know me and, of course it doesn't mean anyone is clean. The current state of affairs has the fans of Tadej's closest competitors insisting he has some magical concoction or dosage; leaving out the part that their favorites maybe aren't up to date in cheating. It's all pretty much prejudicial argumentation at least.

If 2025 racing manages to provide all the contenders a crash free run until July we'll see what new parity emerges. I mean, we have the likes of new younger riders doing well and what to make of Ben O'Conner? He could get better, yeah?

 

[Oldermanish]

It is spelt “inhuman”.

Launch a doping investigation? What are the existing doping controls for then?

In fact, I am pretty sure Pogacar gets tested more because he wins more? So you are claiming the UCI don’t test him or are not tracking his blood profiles? Please come up with something concrete else this is as bad as the motor doping nonsense.

Maybe he actually meant unhuman....like Pogacar is the Holy Half Dead rider Riddick vanquished. That would explain alot...

 

[YellowSocks]

Please come up with something concrete else this is as bad as the motor doping nonsense.

You certainly know "coming up with something concrete" is not his job. A lot of people are paid for this. But I think, as cycling fans, our job is to make noise when things are going too far.

Regarding the doping motor" nonsense", I'll tell you where I see nonsense. When he became UCI president, David Lappartient said his main goal was fighting mechanical doping. They put a lot of money on it. Useless tablets, Xray machines (540 000 $, then smaller ones, 50 000 $ each), then hiring a guy who formerly worked for the CIA (probably 10X my salary), then suddenly anouncing they would offer financial rewards for motor doping whistleblowers. Millions of dollars to find... nothing. Here is your NONSENSE. And why don't they dismantle bikes ? We're not talking about nuclear submarines, we're talking about bikes. B.I.K.E.S.

As far as I am concerned, I am on the edge. I sometimes feel it would explain a lot of things, I sometimes feel it is a crazy idea. But I know for sure something is happening.

I had to talk to my elder brother (he is the real cycling fan of the family, he fell for it from a very young age, I was just the little girl forced to watch Bernard Hinault win lots of Tours de France - you know there was only one screen in houses by this time). He is not into social media, not into forums, not into watts. But he has a knowledge, built on experience. We weren't born yesterday. We don't believe Hinault was clean. And we've seen a lot from there.

First glass of wine, we burst out laughing recalling some of Pogacar's 2024 moves - he really likes Pogacar but he isn't naive, and he's starting to get bored. Second glass, he laughed at me when I said Remco was my landmark with doping question, but the third glass brought us to an agreement: Lefevere = classic doping = still 3 minutes gap in Lombardia.

We both know something is happening. For decades, cycling has followed a "normal doping"/too far mouvement. Whether it is technological or biological doping, we've reached this too far point. You just have to open your eyes.

BTW, it was very rude to spot a spelling mistake. A lot of people on this forum don't have English as their mother tongue, which I think is an asset, and pointing out their mistakes is of no interest. At least they make the effort to speak a foreign language. I'd love to hear you pronounce La Planche des belles filles, L'Alpe d'Huez or le col du Galibier.

 

[peterfin]

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It's crazy if this true. Remco, who is lighter and more aerodynamic, pushes the same watts on the flat and still loses 2 minutes? Either Pogacar was pushing much more than the Olympic and ITT World Champ or something in his bike is giving him an extra boost. Remco was clearly astonished - and rightfully so if you see his gap vs the third, which shows he was equally going all in - but explains it by saying that Pogacar is just too good at the moment. Too good to be true is the only explanation! This and many other of Pogacar's wild attacks are a huge smoking gun. Anyone claiming that he is clean should explain what we saw last season instead of telling us here, in the clinic, that our explanations are just nonsense.

 

[Rob5091]

The Dark Arts and porridge, Pogi's recipe for success?
https://www.wgbh.org/news/2014-10-1...vie-to-make-theirs-the-breakfast-of-champions

Porridge is such a subjective thing. Mine was made with milk, occasionally dried fruit, and either brown sugar or golden syrup drizzled in the shape of a smiley face. Just as long as you remember to stir clockwise — stirring counter-clockwise risks summoning the devil, according to Scottish superstition.

https://www.alpecincycling.com/en/nutrition/tour-de-france-breakfast-of-champions/

...Tour de France champion Tadej Pogacar likes porridge with fruit and honey,

 

[topcat]

We need Benotti69 to analyse Pog's performances. He is the only one who can make it make sense.

 

[pastronef]

We need Benotti69 to analyse Pog's performances. He is the only one who can make it make sense.

he'll just post "motor!" and log-out

 

[Extinction]

You know me and, of course it doesn't mean anyone is clean. The current state of affairs has the fans of Tadej's closest competitors insisting he has some magical concoction or dosage; leaving out the part that their favorites maybe aren't up to date in cheating. It's all pretty much prejudicial argumentation at least.

If 2025 racing manages to provide all the contenders a crash free run until July we'll see what new parity emerges. I mean, we have the likes of new younger riders doing well and what to make of Ben O'Conner? He could get better, yeah?

I'd like to see Vingo and Evenepoel go for a Giro-Tour double, after Strade, Paris-Nice, Catalunya, Lieges and then afterward Worlds and Lombardia, but somehow it seems unlikely. Even without the crashes, Pog would have crushed them on all fronts, which seems too much of an edge. O'Connor couldn't handle an aged and recovering Roglic, so I don't think he will make an impact.

 

[Oldermanish]

I'd like to see Vingo and Evenepoel go for a Giro-Tour double, after Strade, Paris-Nice, Catalunya, Lieges and then afterward Worlds and Lombardia, but somehow it seems unlikely. Even without the crashes, Pog would have crushed them on all fronts, which seems too much of an edge. O'Connor couldn't handle an aged and recovering Roglic, so I don't think he will make an impact.

Part of the references was to balance out the equivalency conversation: Ben O'Connor at Vuelta, then World's. Where'd that come from? I'm not intentionally slighting but for those that suggest one rider among all of them is unfairly enhanced doesn't take other performances into account. Next year will be the "We'll See" season for road critics.

 

[Extinction]

Part of the references was to balance out the equivalency conversation: Ben O'Connor at Vuelta, then World's. Where'd that come from? I'm not intentionally slighting but for those that suggest one rider among all of them is unfairly enhanced doesn't take other performances into account. Next year will be the "We'll See" season for road critics.

I don't see how O'Connor's second at the Vuelta is all that shocking or puts Pogacar's year-long performance in any less dominating perspective. If Pogacar were on any other outfit than the one managed by Mauro Gianetti, I'd be less insistant in claiming something is awry. Next year we'll see a less victorious Pogacar, as he himself has said, to prevent "envy" from making things troublesome. If you can believe that.

 

[Oldermanish]

I don't see how O'Connor's second at the Vuelta is all that shocking or puts Pogacar's year-long performance in any less dominating perspective. If Pogacar were on any other outfit than the one managed by Mauro Gianetti, I'd be less insistant in claiming something is awry. Next year we'll see a less victorious Pogacar, as he himself has said, to prevent "envy" from making things troublesome. If you can believe that.

Your point about Gianetti also has much history. In light of the fact that every American DS on the Big League level has also been involved with enhancements and busted riders suggests it's a matter of opportunity and evasion; not morality.
As far as Pogacar winning less it'll be down to other major players to quit racing to not lose too much and actually race. Time to unplug the wattage meters and let them race on speed and heart rate data without DS manipulation. IMO too much data has led to risk paralysis.

 

[hrotha]

I think it's funny to imply that Pogačar is more suspicious for riding for Gianetti than for being the crushingest winningest fella since Merckx

 

[Extinction]

I think it's funny to imply that Pogačar is more suspicious for riding for Gianetti than for being the crushingest winningest fella since Merckx

No, the one exists in tandem with the other. It would have been almost equally the case with Ricco too, but then Gianetti wasn't working with the colossal petrol dollars he is now. Ironically, Saronni sealed the deal and then faded into oblivion.

 

[Extinction]

Your point about Gianetti also has much history. In light of the fact that every American DS on the Big League level has also been involved with enhancements and busted riders suggests it's a matter of opportunity and evasion; not morality.
As far as Pogacar winning less it'll be down to other major players to quit racing to not lose too much and actually race. Time to unplug the wattage meters and let them race on speed and heart rate data without DS manipulation. IMO too much data has led to risk paralysis.

But I don't think the Ricco-Piepoli bust and then Cobo in the post-Armstrong era can be matched. Not to mention that Gianetti himself had to be rushed to the hospital for poisoned blood during his career.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

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This kind of power makes no sense if Remco was generating similar. Teddy was doing easily over 400 watts to demolish his rivals like that. I don't believe this kind of "source" at all but his outrageous Lombardy performance was worrying (regarding possible motor usage). I'm really hoping this is not the case.