Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[troll hunter]

These are just facts, not 'anti-Brit'

 

[Oldermanish]

You certainly know "coming up with something concrete" is not his job. A lot of people are paid for this. But I think, as cycling fans, our job is to make noise when things are going too far.

Regarding the doping motor" nonsense", I'll tell you where I see nonsense. When he became UCI president, David Lappartient said his main goal was fighting mechanical doping. They put a lot of money on it. Useless tablets, Xray machines (540 000 $, then smaller ones, 50 000 $ each), then hiring a guy who formerly worked for the CIA (probably 10X my salary), then suddenly anouncing they would offer financial rewards for motor doping whistleblowers. Millions of dollars to find... nothing. Here is your NONSENSE. And why don't they dismantle bikes ? We're not talking about nuclear submarines, we're talking about bikes. B.I.K.E.S.

As far as I am concerned, I am on the edge. I sometimes feel it would explain a lot of things, I sometimes feel it is a crazy idea. But I know for sure something is happening.

I had to talk to my elder brother (he is the real cycling fan of the family, he fell for it from a very young age, I was just the little girl forced to watch Bernard Hinault win lots of Tours de France - you know there was only one screen in houses by this time). He is not into social media, not into forums, not into watts. But he has a knowledge, built on experience. We weren't born yesterday. We don't believe Hinault was clean. And we've seen a lot from there.

First glass of wine, we burst out laughing recalling some of Pogacar's 2024 moves - he really likes Pogacar but he isn't naive, and he's starting to get bored. Second glass, he laughed at me when I said Remco was my landmark with doping question, but the third glass brought us to an agreement: Lefevere = classic doping = still 3 minutes gap in Lombardia.

We both know something is happening. For decades, cycling has followed a "normal doping"/too far mouvement. Whether it is technological or biological doping, we've reached this too far point. You just have to open your eyes.

BTW, it was very rude to spot a spelling mistake. A lot of people on this forum don't have English as their mother tongue, which I think is an asset, and pointing out their mistakes is of no interest. At least they make the effort to speak a foreign language. I'd love to hear you pronounce La Planche des belles filles, L'Alpe d'Huez or le col du Galibier.

I think your vestment in moto doping explanations is mostly fantasy. I see the UCI's investment in it as much misdirection rather than interdiction. It politically takes the heat off of serious doping testing at the times that mean something: random whereabouts in far flung camps. If there is doping mischief these days it is more likely before an event than during.

 

[peterfin]

[quote of deleted content removed]
To appreciate that the bromance between the UCI and UAE is not just about a minor cycling app, read this article: [/SIZE]https://www.cyclist.co.uk/in-depth/middle-east-cycling-investment

 

[troll hunter]

You need to work a bit to see things from a higher level. To appreciate that the bromance between the UCI and UAE is not just about a minor cycling app, read this article: https://www.cyclist.co.uk/in-depth/middle-east-cycling-investment

Like what, for example? Because the article doesn't say anything more about the relationship between the UCI and UAE other than MyWhoosh replaced Zwift.

 

[veganrob]

Yes. After LA won his first TDF in 1999 David Walsh (journo) started investigating him and US Postal; USADA starting investigating in 2012. Why did USADA eventually cave and say they were investigating? Pressure from other teams, angry opponents, outsiders, who? Articles are already out in the foreign press noting Pogacar's "pas normal" performance.

Floyd.

 

[Rob5091]

Floyd.

Why do you think UCI, ITA & WADA are desperately looking for a whistleblower - even offering cash for info?

 

[Rob5091]

Could n't be stranger then a blood doper giving the UCI $100.000 to buy a machine to check for blood doping ...Who knows what other "help" the UAE is helping the UCI and Lappi with.
https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/...onfirms-armstrong-donated-100000-to-uci-60599

 

[troll hunter]

Because there is absolutely no difference between an individual "donating" money and a relatively young company taking over the sponsorship of an event from a better known rival to gain more market share and visibility.

 

[Pannenkooky]

Floyd.

ah, the angry Mennonite and his sense of honesty

 

[Pannenkooky]

Why do you think UCI, ITA & WADA are desperately looking for a whistleblower - even offering cash for info?

Whoa, they currently are?

 

[Oldermanish]

Floyd.

Floyd, and some likely caving by Chris Carmichael and others who no longer suckled at the teat of Armstrong. A few friends that did stints coaching in Carmichael's system and didn't race in Armstrong's early days wondered how Chris could claim such credentials. The secret was in the secrets....he knew Lance when he was a Junior under USAC. Other riders who toiled in that system suggested Carmichael was an empty coaching source.

Pogacar has been out in the open so he survives well, as do most of the other major riders because Dave/Mr. UCI has no upside to trashing his sport while courting the IOC presidency. Let that happen after he gets the lifetime, unaccountable job.

 

[Pannenkooky]

Floyd, and some likely caving by Chris Carmichael and others who no longer suckled at the teat of Armstrong. A few friends that did stints coaching in Carmichael's system and didn't race in Armstrong's early days wondered how Chris could claim such credentials. The secret was in the secrets....he knew Lance when he was a Junior under USAC. Other riders who toiled in that system suggested Carmichael was an empty coaching source.

Pogacar has been out in the open so he survives well, as do most of the other major riders because Dave/Mr. UCI has no upside to trashing his sport while courting the IOC presidency. Let that happen after he gets the lifetime, unaccountable job.

I'm reading Tyler Hamilton's book and Lance himself called the UCI on Tyler when TH dropped him on Mont Ventoux. TH writes that the UCI likes to protect its own, especially young superstars. I think eventually someone gets jealous or angry enough that they whistleblow--they can't stand the abuse of power, they're tired of getting popped and living in fear all the time, etc. Any bets on who will crack or get popped first?

 

[Oldermanish]

I'm reading Tyler Hamilton's book and Lance himself called the UCI on Tyler when TH dropped him on Mont Ventoux. TH writes that the UCI likes to protect its own, especially young superstars. I think eventually someone gets jealous or angry enough that they whistleblow--they can't stand the abuse of power, they're tired of getting popped and living in fear all the time, etc. Any bets on who will crack or get popped first?

As I noted above the top guys are very visable and adored by their countrymen and most other riders respect them. Lance was clearly another type of businessman and sought out the same sort of guys to cover for him.

Hard to say but history usually provides us with a candidate from a second tier racer/team that suddenly has results that aren't explainable. It helps if their own federation isn't in bed with them or the UCI has an axe to grind. The top guys now are independent and would work in a small circle. Visma has moved on from riders, trainers and administrators lately; there could be some disgruntled retirees from that pool but it's a guess.

 

[Pannenkooky]

As I noted above the top guys are very visable and adored by their countrymen and most other riders respect them. Lance was clearly another type of businessman and sought out the same sort of guys to cover for him.

Hard to say but history usually provides us with a candidate from a second tier racer/team that suddenly has results that aren't explainable. It helps if their own federation isn't in bed with them or the UCI has an axe to grind. The top guys now are independent and would work in a small circle. Visma has moved on from riders, trainers and administrators lately; there could be some disgruntled retirees from that pool but it's a guess.

Will Tadej's gregarios get tired of him pushing furious paces, making them work hard when they're already ahead? Will his success go to his head and make him arrogant and difficult?

 

[Tricycle Rider]

Will Tadej's gregarios get tired of him pushing furious paces, making them work hard when they're already ahead? Will his success go to his head and make him arrogant and difficult?

I get what you're saying, but who would be willing to pop him seeing as he seems so well-liked by all involved?

 

[veganrob]

I get what you're saying, but who would be willing to pop him seeing as he seems so well-liked by all involved?

Quite likely nobody.

 

[Oldermanish]

Will Tadej's gregarios get tired of him pushing furious paces, making them work hard when they're already ahead? Will his success go to his head and make him arrogant and difficult?

The first question is a possibility but few of those guys are looking to lose a job.
The second question....you can see him now after winning 2 Tours de France, the Giro and WCRR. He seems well adjusted and well paid.
These are the kinds of questions he may get from an aggressive and uninformed press to troll him.

 

[Pannenkooky]

The first question is a possibility but few of those guys are looking to lose a job.
The second question....you can see him now after winning 2 Tours de France, the Giro and WCRR. He seems well adjusted and well paid.
These are the kinds of questions he may get from an aggressive and uninformed press to troll him.

What do you mean uninformed though? Press are asking all the other riders what they think and they're basically calling him an extraterrestrial. If press ask him, I'm sure it'll be the same old same old: I've never failed a test, talking about his diet and crank arms lengths, sure sure. Just like LA changing to high cadence on climbs

 

[Pannenkooky]

I get what you're saying, but who would be willing to pop him seeing as he seems so well-liked by all involved?

I don't know that he's well liked by all the peloton. I would say more seemingly indifferent arm's length tolerance. I can see Remco flapping his arms about Pog after the mystery of them doing the same watts and Remco getting dropped. People like Roglic and Bardet in interviews are giving the "he's an extraterrestrial...eh" vibe. The fairy tale can't last forever.

 

[Pannenkooky]

Just a wild name to throw out there. Mateo Jorgenson for not getting to win the queen stage for the US.

Quite likely nobody.

 

[Rob5091]

The only guy who seemingly has a beef with Pogi at UAE is Ayuso.

 

[Ripper]

The only guy who seemingly has a beef with Pogi at UAE is Ayuso.

This. Ayuso seems a bit of a black sheep and I keep hearing he has issues with some on the team.

The risk/reward to publically trashing pog is a terrible equation for most. The risk is very high, the reward dubious at best. If something is happening, it would take a lot for someone to talk. And they would have to know a lot and be able to prove it.

 

[Oldermanish]

This. Ayuso seems a bit of a black sheep and I keep hearing he has issues with some on the team.

The risk/reward to publically trashing pog is a terrible equation for most. The risk is very high, the reward dubious at best. If something is happening, it would take a lot for someone to talk. And they would have to know a lot and be able to prove it.

The proving part is the most difficult. These are not the times of bags dropped off on mountain side roads and team members queing up in the team bus. The best are totally and discreetly in charge of their details. Seems like most opportunities to bust arise out of handlers and enhancement providers getting caught serving lesser customers to cash in and those guys get caught.
That's why I completely question comparison of anecdotal wattage calculations. Unless you have the rider's actual computer data you are estimating based on watching segments of races. Is anyone getting downloads of a complete race from any of the major performers?

 

[Oldermanish]

I don't know that he's well liked by all the peloton. I would say more seemingly indifferent arm's length tolerance. I can see Remco flapping his arms about Pog after the mystery of them doing the same watts and Remco getting dropped. People like Roglic and Bardet in interviews are giving the "he's an extraterrestrial...eh" vibe. The fairy tale can't last forever.

Are there any other riders that fit into your consideration as bad actors? Seems like your post count is directed at one guy when several claim to be hitting their "best numbers".

 

[Rob5091]

Are there any other riders that fit into your consideration as bad actors? Seems like your post count is directed at one guy when several claim to be hitting their "best numbers".

The problem the UCI has is the entire peloton seems to be jacked up on something, so busting anyone is hard as they're all doing their "best numbers" (which makes a certain Slovenian even more suspect).