Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Rob5091]

Lemond says release the data and Lappi says cycle slower. Two things I'm guessing we'll never see.

 

[pastronef]

Lemond says release the data and Lappi says cycle slower. Two things I'm guessing we'll never see.

way less doable than releasing the data.

 

[Froome]

Obviously he will not release the data, because it would easily prove he is doped until his teeths.

He had a FTP of 420 watts, then it was improved to 430 watts this year, like some resources said.

Then, on plateau de baile he does "a FTP test" where he does 450 watts.

Remember, the FTP is a fresh test of 40/1 hour effort.

Now, in normal conditions he should do between 400 and 420 watts on plateau de beille, because it wasn't a "fresh FTP test".

It is very obvious where those extra 30/40 watts are coming.

It's funny, that not even in the best dreams of the "prophet of twitter" he expected a perfomance like Pogacar did on Plateau de beille.

"He will be prepared to do 6.5 w/kg during >30 minutes in July".

Then, in the Tour, he does 6.8/6.9 w/kg during 40 min on Plateau de beille.

 

[houtdffan]

Greg LeMond gives Tadej Pogacar 'benefit of doubt' in regard to doping: "There's only one person I saw the real physical evidence to go: that guy's doing something not right"

Greg LeMond is one of the icons of American cycling, winning the Tour de France on three occasions in 1986, 1989 and 1990. At the French Grand Tour this year though, Tadej Pogacar dominated en route t...

cyclinguptodate.com

Mr iron injection seems to think Pog is clean because Lemond could do similar...

well... we know that was not an iron injection he took at the 1989 giro

 

[Froome]

Greg LeMond gives Tadej Pogacar 'benefit of doubt' in regard to doping: "There's only one person I saw the real physical evidence to go: that guy's doing something not right"

Greg LeMond is one of the icons of American cycling, winning the Tour de France on three occasions in 1986, 1989 and 1990. At the French Grand Tour this year though, Tadej Pogacar dominated en route t...

cyclinguptodate.com

Mr iron injection seems to think Pog is clean because Lemond could do similar...

well... we know that was not an iron injection he took at the 1989 giro

"In my calculations, I've got Pogacar doing 410 / 420 watts and that's absolutely in the realm that I could have done."

He did 450 watts on Plateau de beille, and lemond thinks he does 420 watts.


420 watts is what Froome was doing on La pierre saint martin.

 

[houtdffan]

"In my calculations, I've got Pogacar doing 410 / 420 watts and that's absolutely in the realm that I could have done."

He did 450 watts on Plateau de beille, and lemond thinks he does 420 watts.


420 watts is what Froome was doing on La pierre saint martin.

Lemond may have been doing stuff other than "iron" then

that reeks of the reefer

 

[Cookster15]

Lemond may have been doing stuff other than "iron" then

that reeks of the reefer

Poor Greg Lemond, all he is done here is unwisely support Pog and Vingo's performances by comparing their watts and weight to his best. I think he provided an honest, albeit flawed explanation that lower weights at least partially explains what we are seeing. eg he was 68kg, Vingo 58Kg.

But for the audacity to suggest so he is compared with oxygen vector dopers? Very unfair. Career cut short first with a shotgun then with the arrival of EPO in the peloton. Today people can't just accept his performances. I was vaguely following cycling when Lemond's career ended. What I recall is the rise of EPO after his hunting accident effectively ended his career. I recall the 1992 Tour was sad to see.

What motivation would Lemond have to be outspoken in support of Pog and Vingo? Are we saying oil money bought him off too? Perhaps he would have been wiser to say nothing?

'Release your data' - Greg LeMond on transparency, skepticism and the new era of cycling

Three-time Tour de France champion says the pressure on riders' weight 'explains the average overall speed going up'

www.cyclingnews.com

 

[Cookster15]

No. To fit my logical explanation. Something changed when he signed for UAE. I don't care about some arbitrary age category. Watch Pablo Torres next season to see whether he becomes Pogacar II.

LOL, nice to see we have finally conceded age may explain his rise since joining UAE when he was just 19. But if Pablo Torres doesn't become Pogi II that is meaningless anyway.

 

[houtdffan]

Poor Greg Lemond, all he is done here is unwisely support Pog and Vingo's performances by comparing their watts and weight to his best. I think he provided an honest, albeit flawed explanation that lower weights at least partially explains what we are seeing. eg he was 68kg, Vingo 58Kg.

But for the audacity to suggest so he is compared with oxygen vector dopers? Very unfair. Career cut short first with a shotgun then with the arrival of EPO in the peloton. Today people can't just accept his performances. I was vaguely following cycling when Lemond's career ended. What I recall is the rise of EPO after his hunting accident effectively ended his career. I recall the 1992 Tour was sad to see.

What motivation would Lemond have to be outspoken in support of Pog and Vingo? Are we saying oil money bought him off too? Perhaps he would have been wiser to say nothing?

'Release your data' - Greg LeMond on transparency, skepticism and the new era of cycling

Three-time Tour de France champion says the pressure on riders' weight 'explains the average overall speed going up'

www.cyclingnews.com

No, it is not unfair.

Afterall, in the last year, he said riders may have been injected not knowing what they were injected with.

It is very fair to ask how he went from a donkey at the start of that giro to a racehorse after his “iron” injection

 

[Cookster15]

No, it is not unfair.

Afterall, in the last year, he said riders may have been injected not knowing what they were injected with.

It is very fair to ask how he went from a donkey at the start of that giro to a racehorse after his “iron” injection

Well, I did do some brief research before I replied on your comment. If you are afflicted with gunshot wounds then maybe iron injections give a rapid improvement? I don’t know, just hypothesising here? Your view seems equally could be more opinion than factual? Is there a Lemond thread where this could be discussed at length because I have generally trusted Lemond and see criticism of him as modern fans getting upset because he dare suggest doping isn’t the only way you could win grand tours before EPO.

 

[Pannenkooky]

And now we read that Lemond thinks it's all down to weight. I love Greg, but he seems conditioned by the good boy litany presented by the team and gobbled up by the press. While there was an Armstrong to investigate the money rolled in, now it pays more to not rock the boat. Everything is warm and fuzzy evidently.

in UAE's pocket

 

[Cookster15]

in UAE's pocket

Why would he be in UAE’s pocket? Evidence please.

 

[Extinction]

Why would he be in UAE’s pocket? Evidence please.

Greg said only one rider raised a red flag, while he gives people the benefit of the doubt. I don't say UAE has him in its pocket, but with Gianetti-Matxin running the outfit Lemond has clearly not been paying attention or does so only selectively. Whilst Armstrong remained untouchable, Greg became a persona non grata of the sport. Given Pogacar isn't American and thus not a threat to his legacy and considering how unpopular it seems to be to question the "good boy" narrative that's been built like a fortress around Tadej (the fact that the UCI has accepted UAE money in an appalling conflict of interests shows it is in colusion with the petrol dollars super-team), means Greg won't rock the boat this time around. Lemond wants to be welcome, questioning Pogacar would make him most unwelcome indeed.

 

[Extinction]

No, it is not unfair.

Afterall, in the last year, he said riders may have been injected not knowing what they were injected with.

It is very fair to ask how he went from a donkey at the start of that giro to a racehorse after his “iron” injection

It may well be that Lemond was injected with something other than iron, but I'm certain if it was something else like first gen EPO he was totally ignorant of it. Guys got shots they were told was something else frequently back then. Greg can be very naive, but he's not cinical. He believed it was iron and that was that. And one treatment of EPO would not account for his great turn around. Unless he received a whole treatment of "iron shots" the therapy doesn't work, although maybe he did I don't know. At any rate, I wish he'd at least say something like: "I'm willing to give anybody (well almost) the benefit of the doubt, but I just wish Pogacar weren't riding for Gianetti-Matxin, who managed Riccardo Ricco, Leonardo Piepoli and Juan Cobo." Greg clearly has a short memory.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Poor Greg Lemond, all he is done here is unwisely support Pog and Vingo's performances by comparing their watts and weight to his best. I think he provided an honest, albeit flawed explanation that lower weights at least partially explains what we are seeing. eg he was 68kg, Vingo 58Kg.

Lemond explains performances by weight reduction but says nothing about how our heroes have smaller mass and still produce large wattage (similar to heavier cyclists in the past). That's the main secret obviously. How they can squeeze so much wattage out of every kilo? It's not that the weight difference is fat and previous champions were chubby.

 

[Cookster15]

Lemond explains performances by weight reduction but says nothing about how our heroes have smaller mass and still produce large wattage (similar to heavier cyclists in the past). That's the main secret obviously. How they can squeeze so much wattage out of every kilo? It's not that the weight difference is fat and previous champions were chubby.

Yes. I recall Cadel Evans complaining about this in 2012 - the rise of Sky (skinny climbers who could TT).

 

[houtdffan]

It may well be that Lemond was injected with something other than iron, but I'm certain if it was something else like first gen EPO he was totally ignorant of it. Guys got shots they were told was something else frequently back then. Greg can be very naive, but he's not cinical. He believed it was iron and that was that. And one treatment of EPO would not account for his great turn around. Unless he received a whole treatment of "iron shots" the therapy doesn't work, although maybe he did I don't know. At any rate, I wish he'd at least say something like: "I'm willing to give anybody (well almost) the benefit of the doubt, but I just wish Pogacar weren't riding for Gianetti-Matxin, who managed Riccardo Ricco, Leonardo Piepoli and Juan Cobo." Greg clearly has a short memory.

that is very plausible, and Lemond even said that was common back in the late 80s

 

[Extinction]

that is very plausible, and Lemond even said that was common back in the late 80s

Although, he could have been told he was getting an "ironepo" shot, which, in any case, would not have been a banned.

 

[Unchained]

Although, he could have been told he was getting an "ironepo" shot, which, in any case, would not have been a banned.

Funny how all of Lemond's rivals had doping issues including Sean Kelly and Fignon and dozens of others, but he got B12 or average iron injections,
I am forever curious about cause and cash UCI or others would need to test 80s, 1990s samples if they were available.
Don't know that they are or messing with a sleeping dog would serve pro bike racing!
Data set for Lemond and Pogacar are not comparable, Pogacar data for a year or two is likely the equivalent of data for Lemond in his career. From body weight, body fat, FTP, grams of variety of foods and liquid consumed, training mileage and average speed for training.. If I remember right Lemond was sponsored by Avocet for a few years.. My current refrigerator thermometer has more technology and data available. One of Lance Armstrong's favorite training metrics was cadence, which has sort of faded from fashion..
Calories on the bike sounds to be a complete game changer, again curious to know amount of calories carbohydrates Lemond was taking in during training and some of his winning efforts, including TDF wins. Many holders on say the old established sensation of bonking still happens but it's becoming more rare in well prepared pro riders, I have heard half dozen say what they are eating and drinking on the bike is almost completely different than even 10 years ago.

 

[Divergence]

Lemond explains performances by weight reduction but says nothing about how our heroes have smaller mass and still produce large wattage (similar to heavier cyclists in the past). That's the main secret obviously. How they can squeeze so much wattage out of every kilo? It's not that the weight difference is fat and previous champions were chubby.

This is because one does not need large biceps to go fast up a climb. Also, one does not need "healthy fats".
Dispense with the fatty foods, eat a lot of carbs and you can be both low weight and have large power. There is no endurance trade-off there.
A downside might be you may need some help if you are moving houses.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

This is because one does not need large biceps to go fast up a climb. Also, one does not need "healthy fats".
Dispense with the fatty foods, eat a lot of carbs and you can be both low weight and have large power. There is no endurance trade-off there.
A downside might be you may need some help if you are moving houses.

Climbers of the past 30-40 years were skinny too, no big muscles.

 

[Divergence]

Climbers of the past 30-40 years were skinny too, no big muscles.

Obviously LeMond thinks he could have been on par with Vingo had he not had the muscle mass. How do you interpret his comments?

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Obviously LeMond thinks he could have been on par with Vingo had he not had the muscle mass. How do you interpret his comments?

Not sure actually. Reducing muscle mass also reduces sustainable power. Unless Greg was indeed doing a lot of excercises for pure muscle strength and mass, which is atypical for GC climbers. Generally I can't see much difference in climbers build now vs the past (except a few powerful bulls from the EPO era).

 

[Divergence]

Not sure actually. Reducing muscle mass also reduces sustainable power. Unless Greg was indeed doing a lot of excercises for pure muscle strength and mass, which is atypical for GC climbers. Generally I can't see much difference in climbers build now vs the past (except a few powerful bulls from the EPO era).

But if this is the case then what LeMond says makes little to no sene at all.

 

[Unchained]

But if this is the case then what LeMond says makes little to no sene at all.

I don't know if this is a thing, don't want to sound overly creepy, but upper and lower body sizes in general from Lemons era to Pog era look dramatically different to me.
I also know that skeletal structure is fixed but I feel like arm,shoulders, pectoral mass allow riders to use much more narrow bars because of the heroin chic super model upper body that's all the rage in today's cycling.
Also I don't think Lemond may be paying close attention to many riders, usually exiting that say they see what looks like an institutional eating disorder in pro bike racing.
Cycling went from avoid walking, lifting weights, eating meat and pastry to doing more cross training and core exercise, to today, which I am not sure what it is, runway models racing bicycles