Question Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

Page 60 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.
This definitely looked like a calculated move to reduce suspicion to me. “Crack” for the last minute or two of the climb and drop back to the chasing group to make it down the mountain in the same time anyway. Did he ever even have to stop nose breathing? No jostling around on the bike, no resorting to getting out of the saddle, no near collapse like when Ala got dropped earlier, it looked like a casual Sunday ride. He doesn’t want to win this tour by more than he’s already ahead.
everybody will see what they want to see, i saw the same Pogacar that was following Yates at UAE
 
Reactions: yaco
Gianetti's heritage:
As a rider he nearly died in 1998 because he experimented with PFC.

His main achievements as a manager:
2007: Mayo: EPO
2008: Ricco and Piepoli: Cera
2009: Fernandez de la Puebla: EPO
2011: Cobo (abnormal values in biological passport)

https://www.bikeradar.com/news/blog-gianetti-is-ingrained-with-doping/

Why are Armstrong and Bruyneel banned from the sport while this guy can still be general manager of a cycling team?
Well documented and well said !
 
Reactions: Danskebjerge
I'm gonna play the devil's advocate here: how about he just had somewhat bad legs today? A double Mont Ventoux ascent can take its toll on anyone, doping or not doping. Not every rider puffs and pulls ridicoulous pain faces when he is close to the limit, some just look fine until they crack.

His crack did look 'controlled' in a way, but considering how much of a lead he has, he didn't really have to go deep just to keep Vingegaard's wheels (we need a nickname for this guy), especially given the long descent that was just a few hundreds metres away.

It's also not particularly cunning to respond to the doping accusations by immediately sandbagging in the next hard stage. Most of the public wouldn't really pick it up and the most skeptical of his performances would also be skeptical of his newfound weakness.
i dont even think he "cracked", sure he cracked compared to vingegaard (JV is a story in itself) but he was still better than everybody else and in the end lost nothing - the outlier wasnt Pogacar being weak, it was JV(team) and JV (jonas vingegaard) being strong

his best performances this year have been prato di tivo and first two mountain stages of tour, all three were cold days and he seems to thrive in those conditions, so perhaps he overheats in proper french summer

then again what the hell do we do with sudden JV surge, under "normal cicumstances" he would just follow carapaz to the top and we wouldnt know he was close to his limit
 
I'm gonna play the devil's advocate here: how about he just had somewhat bad legs today? A double Mont Ventoux ascent can take its toll on anyone, doping or not doping. Not every rider puffs and pulls ridicoulous pain faces when he is close to the limit, some just look fine until they crack.
Bad legs? Luke Rowe had bad legs. Pog just had great legs instead of his usual amazing legs.
 
Reactions: Koronin
i dont even think he "cracked", sure he cracked compared to vingegaard (JV is a story in itself) but he was still better than everybody else and in the end lost nothing - the outlier wasnt Pogacar being weak, it was JV(team) and JV (jonas vingegaard) being strong

his best performances this year have been prato di tivo and first two mountain stages of tour, all three were cold days and he seems to thrive in those conditions, so perhaps he overheats in proper french summer

then again what the hell do we do with sudden JV surge, under "normal cicumstances" he would just follow carapaz to the top and we wouldnt know he was close to his limit
Pogacar hating heat seems plausible at this point. But I don't remember the temepratures throughout the mountain stages in 2019 Vuelta and 2020 Tour tbh. I do know Andorra had proper *** weather and Pena Negra was really bad and hard too?
 
we know from yates and JA examples that once you start to crack because of spending too much energy in the 1-2 weeks, you pay for it in the 3rd. If this crack is due to that then we should see him losing time in increasing quantities from now on. However that would be unlikely considering his miraculous return in the TT after cracking on Col de la Loze
 
Reactions: Koronin
If he does perform worse in heat then I'll accept that as a variable. I'm no athlete but when climbing mountains I'm like an old man if it is even above 15 degrees Celsius. :D

I do think Pog at last years TdF repeatedly showed some genuine intelligence; a willingness to immediately come off the gas when at the limit, regroup and slowly fight back (e.g. when gapped by Rog, but finishing the stage having clawed him back a bit). He has a good sense of avoiding going deep into the red. It may have been the same class here and that JV is the outlier.

The good thing is there is much of the race to go. If we get average weather on a MTF and Pog slays the opposition I'll be much happier.

Thanks for the responses guys. Definitely an interesting case study.
 
Oct 9, 2009
87
0
8,680
Wow, all the evidence points towards a likely dirty rider. I just don't understand how a 22 year old can dominate when historically, even on dope cyclists hit their peak 8 years later. Probably a lame comment but it just doesn't look likely he is clean. And yes, the crack looked as fake as fake gets.
 
Yup, I know why commentators are trying to drum up some drama but still, this was hardly a "crack" in the armor. Pretty easy to spot someone 30 seconds when you are up by this many minutes and can descend with others who have a vested interest. LOL at the sprint for 4th ... no time bonus, so a bit of an FU to the V-man?
Yeah, Pog, Uran and Carapaz descended super fast.

And yes, same ego-fueled FU sprint as MVDP vs Asgreen in Le Creusot. (Difference being that MVDP was basically toast while Pogacar was still fresh, IMO)
 

Matxin on Pog and UAE:

"Yes, the Vuelta is on Tadej’s programme, although right now we’re focused on the Tour and achieving a second title with him. I hope he doesn’t finish the Tour very tired so he can go there to do well," he told the Spanish publication.

"Yes, you only have to look at the TV these last days. On the Alpine stages, of the last 14 riders, we had four. The squad is solid and we have implicit trust in Tadej, Tadej in his teammates, and Tadej in Tadej.

"Tadej is possibly at a very similar level to last year. However, the crashes and nerves from the start, which didn’t hamper him, ended up getting rid of some big names like Roglic and Thomas, and opening a big gap over the other favourites."

"I go back to his numbers from last year – they’re practically the same – and the controls he has to submit. But it’s a matter of opinion and I’m not going to go there," he said.


I like that. No BS, just straight talk.
 
Wow, all the evidence points towards a likely dirty rider. I just don't understand how a 22 year old can dominate when historically, even on dope cyclists hit their peak 8 years later. Probably a lame comment but it just doesn't look likely he is clean. And yes, the crack looked as fake as fake gets.
old school cycling was about earning your spot, which is why a lot of future greats started as domestiques...nowadays with all the testing you can figure out a future great rider (and potentially great PED responder) right away so you just throw them in, no need to wait

pog just turned 21 when he was 3rd in vuelta, even absolutely massive talents like Ullrich were year and a half older when they showed up on big stage and ullrich was still an outlier, if evenepoel could stay on his bike who knows where he could be by now,also watch out for Ayuso
 
Pogacar hating heat seems plausible at this point. But I don't remember the temepratures throughout the mountain stages in 2019 Vuelta and 2020 Tour tbh. I do know Andorra had proper *** weather and Pena Negra was really bad and hard too?
2019 Vuelta, stage 20 (where Pogacar took off on the next to last climb and Valverde actually said after the stage he didn't anyone could stay away from where Pogacar attacked) was a rainy stage. That's the stage that Movistar had their radios die in the middle of the stage due to the rain. On the final climb it was the fans yelling time checks to Valverde as to why he knew he had to go on the attack to save his second place and Roglic went with him and helped him on that final climb.

old school cycling was about earning your spot, which is why a lot of future greats started as domestiques...nowadays with all the testing you can figure out a future great rider (and potentially great PED responder) right away so you just throw them in, no need to wait

pog just turned 21 when he was 3rd in vuelta, even absolutely massive talents like Ullrich were year and a half older when they showed up on big stage and ullrich was still an outlier, if evenepoel could stay on his bike who knows where he could be by now,also watch out for Ayuso
Add Valverde to the list with Ullrich. Valverde turned pro at 21 (turned 22 early in that season, 2002). The following year was his break out year with 15 wins and his first podium at la Vuelta. Even for a 22/23 year old, what Valverde did in 2003 was unusual for someone his age. Over the past 10 year's it seems it's become a little more common to see riders in their early 20's having more opportunities than they did previously.



As for heat vs cold affecting riders, that happens. Every rider is going to prefer one or the other. There are more extreme cases also. Everyone knows Valverde loves to race in the heat and the sun and prefers to race in temperatures that most riders think are too high. At the same times he suffers badly in the cold and any kind of bad weather. Remember he's said that anything under 20C is cold. Pogacar, obviously, is the opposite. He likes cold and bad weather and doesn't like hot sunny weather as well.
 
Reactions: Red Rick

Matxin on Pog and UAE:

"Yes, the Vuelta is on Tadej’s programme, although right now we’re focused on the Tour and achieving a second title with him. I hope he doesn’t finish the Tour very tired so he can go there to do well," he told the Spanish publication.

"Yes, you only have to look at the TV these last days. On the Alpine stages, of the last 14 riders, we had four. The squad is solid and we have implicit trust in Tadej, Tadej in his teammates, and Tadej in Tadej.

"Tadej is possibly at a very similar level to last year. However, the crashes and nerves from the start, which didn’t hamper him, ended up getting rid of some big names like Roglic and Thomas, and opening a big gap over the other favourites."

"I go back to his numbers from last year – they’re practically the same – and the controls he has to submit. But it’s a matter of opinion and I’m not going to go there," he said.


I like that. No BS, just straight talk.
I agree, a very credible response with zero flannel. I'd also say I still see nothing particularly suspect in the rest of UAE. I also like this from Pog:


He references heat possibly being a factor on Ventoux (but not being sure) and says if he is feeling good (which he seems to expect) then he will race aggressively. No "Vino-garde showed how strong he is, I'll have to be on my guard, I'll take it day by day, there is a long way to go..." faux humility after having asserted clear dominance.

It all means nothing in assessing a rider's honesty, but in no other sport does a dominant performer ease up when on top. If I was a pro cyclist smashing the opposition I'd race every stage as I saw fit and to hell with what the public thought.
 
On the issue of Pogacar liking rain, I'll draw a parallel with Lance Armstrong (I understand some people might not remember him, but he won a a world championship in Oslo in 1993 so he's almost famous), in any case Armstrong liked rain because everyone else in the peloton hated it ergo the harder the race was, the more Lance went hard & as fast as possible to hurt the rest.

I got that from Tyler Hamilton's book.
 
On the issue of Pogacar liking rain, I'll draw a parallel with Lance Armstrong (I understand some people might not remember him, but he won a a world championship in Oslo in 1993 so he's almost famous), in any case Armstrong liked rain because everyone else in the peloton hated it ergo the harder the race was, the more Lance went hard & as fast as possible to hurt the rest.

I got that from Tyler Hamilton's book.
Wasn't Hautacam 2000 heavy rain too?
 
How wasn't that straight talk?? When I imagine what questions were asked, I think those were very clear answers to them. And the last line is the best answer you can give as a (DS for a) doper when you don't want to treat people as idiots.
 
Jan 29, 2021
321
267
1,180
Pogacar's coach inigo san millan, said today that formolo did 5.79 w/kg on col de la colombiere, so carapaz, mas and the others did the same performance because they we're in the same group. And also formolo was sick.
This is the prove that the opponents of pogacar's this year on tour de france are very weak, so it wasn't difficult for him to gain 2 min on everybody. So again, i don't understand this suspicions around him.
Again, to me, la planche des belles filles could be the only performance out of this world by pogacar, but i believe he has the natural talent for that.
 
Reactions: PhiLiz and solo80k
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
masking_agent The Clinic 8

ASK THE COMMUNITY