Question Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

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It's about time we address Pogacars remarkable rise since he joined UAE in 2019.

His first season as a junior wasn't anything special, but we have to remember that he was born later in year (September) which is a disadvantage at that age.
In his second season he definitely proved his talent by winning the Giro della Lunigiana.
However, in the entire season he only won two stages and never put any distance on his competitors.
His time trial abilities were less impressive. A 25th and 68th spot.

His first season as a U23 rider wasn't too great either.
He won a few youth jerseys, but didn't record a single stage win.

His second season was definitely better, but still hit and miss.
He won the Tour de l'Avenir, but didn't record a stage win.
He also finished 7th at the WC road race.
Promising, but not exceptional.

Then he moved to UAE. Its CEO is Mauro Gianetti, possibly the dirtiest rider and sports director in history.
Suddenly he started to win stage races (Algarve, California, and individual mountain stages in the Vuelta against the likes of Valverde and Roglic.
He also became a much better time trialist beating Mohoric and Tratnik in the Slovenian championship.

Give me a break.
 
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Yugoslavia was never Soviet state, not even close to being one. And it was socialism not communism - of course socialism is much closer to communism than capitalism so that’s a bit of a nitpicking. But the first one is waaaay off :)
It was almost a de facto Soviet state for those first three years. But Tito wouldn't do Stalin's bidding and they broke off from the Eastern Bloc.

However, they were governed exclusively by The League of Communists of Yugoslavia. The separate states ostensibly called themselves socialist republics, but Tito was a communist, the governing party was a communist party, Yugoslavia was communist.
 
It was almost a de facto Soviet state for those first three years. But Tito wouldn't do Stalin's bidding and they broke off from the Eastern Bloc.

However, they were governed exclusively by The League of Communists of Yugoslavia. The separate states ostensibly called themselves socialist republics, but Tito was a communist, the governing party was a communist party, Yugoslavia was communist.
No it was not. How was it Soviet state? And what does de facto mean here? It was under soviet influence, sure, but that’s like saying UK use USA state. It’s just not true no matter which way you spin it...
 
No it was not. How was it Soviet state? And what does de facto mean here? It was under soviet influence, sure, but that’s like saying UK use USA state. It’s just not true no matter which way you spin it...
They were briefly willing participants of the Eastern Bloc, also commonly known as the Soviet Bloc.

And it was, by any Western definition, a communist state. Tito was a revolutionary communist, the governing party was communist. Communist states never described themselves as such, but that doesn't mean they weren't.

Anyway, football is on and this is a pretty futile derailment of the thread.

Back to how ridiculously juiced up Pogacar is.
 
Are you asking me to substantiate my claim that designing and prescribing a doping program that best suits an individual is something that takes skill and that there is variance even if everybody has access to essentially the same products and methods? Because that's what "They just need to be doing it better" meant.
Yes. Thanks for providing a snippet of something worthwhile rather then arguments about whether Slovenia was under the iron curtain. Hopefully this speculation can be built upon here .
 
where the hell did you draw this map from, Slovenia is NOT part of the Balkans, for God sake
Yes it is.
South of Sava river all the way to Soča everything belongs to the Balkan peninsula.
And I don't even want to get into culture and politics (might tell some joke instead).

Edit:
Balkan's also known as a piece of Middle East in Europe.
Is there better proof than cycling WT?
 
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For me Slovenia is South-Eastern Europe.
I don't know why this is important for the clinic, but that's the way it is for me. Same as Albania. Greece is southern Europe.
I don't think there is a clear definition for that.

Okay, I looked it up at German wiki and there seem to be several ideas about that, but you can see the map here, which is a proposition by the "Ständiger Ausschuss für geographische Namen"
(Standing Committee on Geographical Names):
It says Slovenia is Middle Europe but they also say Poland and Hungary are, and in my opinion those are clearly Eastern Europe.

Thinking about it, there is only one country for me that's Western Europe, and that's France. :D
Where do you draw the line?! Crazy how we are getting our knickers in a twist about this. Let's stay focused on the sheer madness that we saw today rather than where certain countries are supposed to be described geographically.
 
Slovenia, like it or not, is an Eastern European country. Just like Hungary. But that's just a convenient Cold War way to account for political divisions, in the sense that "Western Europe" orbited around the NATO alliance and "Eastern Europe" around Moscow. I don't think that's in question.

I've been to Slovenia on business trips and the western part feels a bit like Western Europe, but the eastern and southern parts are more Balkan feeling. Regardless, I loved it and found Slovenians to be excellent business hosts, very pragmatic in an appealing way!

Back to the immediate topic at hand: We saw an amazing performance yesterday that can be partly explained by rival teams who had been fatally weakened (Ineos, TJV) and had no strategy, and partly by a previous, grueling stage in which TP could have been put under serious pressure but was let off the hook (Movistar?) a bit, putting his rivals on the back foot and giving him a breather.

That said, TP's performance since joining the WT have been...extraterrestrial. But since we don't know what a clean peloton with modern training and equipment looks like, it's going to be all conjecture unless he fails atest or somebody spills the beans...
more disinformation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-Aligned_Movement
 
Please just stop it, because you’re really embarrassing yourself. I‘am fully aware that the most important part of your own national identity is the fairytale that Slovenia is somehow a part of Mitteleuropa and therefore doesn’t belong to the Balkans, but as you can see no one is buying that rubbish. By the way, with the story about the Non-Aligned movement you definitely didn’t prove anything, except that you’re completely ignorant. No one forced Slovenians to be part of Yugoslavia a hundred years ago, actually it was the complete opposite because you literally begged to be finally get rid of the K&K monarchy and join your South Slavic brothers from Croatia and Serbia. At the end of the day you gained your own independent state and therefore you should be grateful to your former country Yugoslavia, because otherwise you would’ve been just a minority somewhere in Austria like Slovenians from Carinthia. I’m so sorry but you can’t have it both ways…
 
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Dozens of riders died during the EPO era because they had to play along with the cheaters. I don't claim to be morally superior. I might do the same if I were in his position. The question remains whether it is important to pursue the truth. I think it is even when it compromises your entertainment.
See, you are invoking moral superiority. The "truth", what a weighty and elusive concept.

Nobody forced any rider to use EPO or any other PEDs. They did not "have to" play along. They were free to choose to not participate, and - if they felt that this would prevent them from winning - speak up, or look for a different team or career path. As is evidenced by the fact that eventually, some did. And yes, of course everyone was understandably afraid of the consequences of spilling the beans, but that's the same as in any other job. Questionable stuff happens everywhere, and most people keep quiet and play along, for the sake of their careers and personal benefits. This still makes it their choice.

Case in point: I have long worked in an environment where it was socially required to drink alcohol. After large deals were closed, it was mandatory to celebrate extensively with the boys. Not playing along meant some serious career ceiling. There were (and are) many high-powered alcoholics in that well-paid peer group. Some of them will surely die because of liver damage.

Long story short: I don't buy the victim story (which you need to invoke moral superiority). That's the weak man's excuse. Neither do I think that doping is OK, and I would never personally do it. I just don't look at the TdF and similar big buck sport media events as anything more than great entertainment.
 
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Reactions: mollusc
well, GCN is openly questioning, I wonder where were they when sky was on board
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVQVf0s6X_g&lc=UgwYFioLRRzONpA0-BN4AaABAg.9PQ3-wpDYEE9PQMGwkISSa
Would have been good if we didnt knew why there are all these sceptical articles.

Will be a lot of questions why Slovenia suddenly is the new hotbed in international cycling whilst it was taken for granted that everybody who could ride a bike in UK became the best cyclists who ever lived for some years.
 
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I cant and thats why i’ve been off from the sports in three-four years. I decided to sit out the Froome years because it was either soul crushing boring or frankly an insult to my intelligence every time i saw him on a bike or listening to the cheerleaders in media who pretends the sports never had any problem or instigating a bit of healthy scepicism.

I actually turned on the first mountain stage this Tour for the first time in some years knowing that Froome is back to his normal Barloworld levels wrapped up in some excuses. What do i see instead? Another best ever candidate presenting himself with seemingly endless abilities he can do on a bike and the media back to being cheerleaders and ”surprised” (ok our commentators talked like they knew what was going on tbf. They just cant go out and say it).

the cycling you would enjoy watching would be incredibly boring. in all sports you need to find the super talents and give them a boost. its just entertainment. in what other sense does it 'matter' who can run or cycle a tiny bit faster than another person?
 
I know what you mean, yes - but it is difficult to put your "reputation" on the line defending a cyclist against doping accusation. I mean what do all those people who vigorously defended Armstrong do once he's admitted to be doping? And you can never be sure with those guys. I'm a big Roglič fan but I will never defend him against doping because - well, you just never know. I will, however, point out that the case against him has no real substance at the moment.

That being said, I understand it's frustrating to be Pogi's accuser because there is no real resistance and it's much more fun if there are 50 guys on this forum you can say "I told you so" once/if they catch him with his pants down.
Do you really think the people who think Pogacar is doping and express their opinion here do so because it's "fun" and to be able "I told you so"?
Well, maybe some do, who knows.
I certainly don't. I am going to be very happy when it turns out I'm wrong.
Can you imagine there are people who don't like cheating and are simply afraid and sad about some things they see because they cannot believe they are true?
 
If wanting to engage in an open minded discussion about the whats, whys and how of doping makes one a hypocritic dweller, thats your problem.
I'm seeing an awful lot of closed minds here. Minds which say cyclists doped, cyclists will always dope, all cyclists dope. Minds closed to evidence - minds that actually congratulate their own ignorance - but full of belief in their own worldview.
 
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