TDF aint what it use to be, where are the summit finishes?

[Russell]

If the tell tale sign is out that the peloton is not doping, look at the schedule of the TDF the last 2 years. I went to 4 of Lances tour wins, and I remember at least 2 summit finishes in the Pyrennes and 2 in the Alps. Tourmelet and Alp Du Huez were both in the same year. Well, you have to pick the Tourmelet to get any serious ascending next year. I sure enjoyed the Alps this year. To bad for all the loosers that choose the Pyrennes for their tour dates. Gone are the days that both mountains are met with equal treachery. If doping brings back the old days, then let them dope.

 

[usedtobefast]

some people say they do anyway. just less so.

 

[ingsve]

It wasn't better in the past. There has been lots of Tours with only three mountain top finishes. And the Tour has alot of the time had less mountain top finishes than the Giro. This coming Tour is not exceptional in that respect at all.

 

[auscyclefan94]

It wasn't better in the past. There has been lots of Tours with only three mountain top finishes. And the Tour has alot of the time had less mountain top finishes than the Giro. This coming Tour is not exceptional in that respect at all.

you don't have to have a mtn top finish to have time gaps. Their have been some exciting tours that have had only 3 mtn top finishes. i think3 mtn top finshes are fine and having some stages that you climb the final mtn and descend into the finish adds a different element to the tour. a guy like salvodelli loved those stages and sanchez also seems to be good at those types of the stages.

 

[ingsve]

you don't have to have a mtn top finish to have time gaps. Their have been some exciting tours that have had only 3 mtn top finishes. i think3 mtn top finshes are fine and having some stages that you climb the final mtn and descend into the finish adds a different element to the tour. a guy like salvodelli loved those stages and sanchez also seems to be good at those types of the stages.

I never said anything about only 3 mountain top finishes being bad, that was what the OP said. I only said that next year there is not exceptionally fewer than in the past. Actually the standard seems to be 3 mountain top finishes per Tour.

2010 3
2009 3
2008 4
2007 3
2006 3
2005 3
2004 3
2003 3
2002 5
2001 5
2000 3
1999 3
1998 2
1997 3
1996 4

 

[Timmy-loves-Rabo]

MNT top finishes are only good when the right climb is choosen anyway. Screw these MNT finishes where 20 riders come in together.

 

[laziali]

It wasn't better in the past. There has been lots of Tours with only three mountain top finishes. And the Tour has alot of the time had less mountain top finishes than the Giro. This coming Tour is not exceptional in that respect at all.

I'm not sure the stats posted bear out the original comment. I challenge anyone to recall a more exciting mountaintop finish than Claudio Chiappucci's win at Sestriere in 1992 - a tour that had 3 (4?) MT finishes. They were of course back to back, Mt Blanc, Sestriere, Alpe du Huez

 

[BroDeal]

MNT top finishes are only good when the right climb is choosen anyway. Screw these MNT finishes where 20 riders come in together.

Yup. You need to look at the entire stage, the difficulty of the final climb, and the stage or two before.

It might be interesting to go back for the last twenty years and count the number of mountain stages per Tour that produced meaningful gaps between the contenders.

 

[Anonymous]

Whilst I'm also dissapointed with 3 MTFs, I have to say that the riders will learn from what happened last year. Stage 17 was awesome, and 3 people survived in an epic battle with large time gaps.

As long as the stage finishes with a descent (rather than a descent plus 25k flat) then the stage can potentially become more interesting and exciting.

I've been looking back at the 2007 Tour (one of my favourites) and the time gaps were HUGE when there were descent finishes. This was mainly due to guys like Rasmussen and Soler ripping it up, but I think descent finishes can add to the amount of attacks in a stage, because a rider has to put in huge time on the uphill, to hold that lead in the downhill.

That said, 5 MTFs in 2001, 2002 is pretty darn impressive battles ala Ullrich, Armstrong, Beloki...

I'm actually liking this tour route the more I see it, as long as the riders realise they have to attack!!

 

[python]

i’m afraid aso is reluctant to pile up 5-6 mountain top finishes because they would obviously benefit a stronger climber and deviate into the giro's trademark. but i still think they stimulate attacks like no other type of terrain and i’d like to see more than 3.

it does not have to be one huge last mountain. for, ex wc course was exciting because the 2 last medium hills were perfectly spaced with a moderate tilt up at the end favoring a smarter attacker.

 

[laziali]

i’m afraid aso is reluctant to pile up 5-6 mountain top finishes because they would obviously benefit a stronger climber and deviate into the giro's trademark.

except that the Giro doesn't feature the world's best climbers all on peak form Always wondered what would have happened if, say, Armstrong, Beloki, Ullrich, Pantani, Simoni had all raced a mountainous Giro together as their major objective for the season rather than dividing between the Giro and the Tour.

 

[ak-zaaf]

except that the Giro doesn't feature the world's best climbers all on peak form Always wondered what would have happened if, say, Armstrong, Beloki, Ullrich, Pantani, Simoni had all raced a mountainous Giro together as their major objective for the season rather than dividing between the Giro and the Tour.

We would have had 2 GT's a year where the life was sucked out of. Now we had Gibo. I know what i prefer.

 

[McLovin]

in 09 giro were 7 mtf? but most of them were like....yeah, let's have a MTF...i mean 20-30 riders in the same time and 90 with a gap less than a minute?
anyway, 2001 tour has 5 of them, and consecutive. nice, but as i remeber, that was all the tour, from sunday to fryday or something. before boring, after boring.

 

[laziali]

in 09 giro were 7 mtf? but most of them were like....yeah, let's have a MTF...i mean 20-30 riders in the same time and 90 with a gap less than a minute?
anyway, 2001 tour has 5 of them, and consecutive. nice, but as i remeber, that was all the tour, from sunday to fryday or something. before boring, after boring.

But the 09 Giro was the most boring in recent memory. Let's recap:

1. Menchov wins even though he needs trainer-wheels to stay upright.
2. Everyone focussed on LA even though he is clearly riding as comeback preparation for the Tour.
3. Di Luca. Everyone knows he's been doping for ages so no real credibility in his ride. (Good "evil eyes" stare though).
4. Someone dominated the sprints. Ale-Jet underperformed again.
5. Can't remember anything else from the race.

Compared with some of the recent Giros with the Cunego/Simoni/Salvodelli battles 09 was pretty lame.

 

[McLovin]

But the 09 Giro was the most boring in recent memory. Let's recap:
Compared with some of the recent Giros with the Cunego/Simoni/Salvodelli battles 09 was pretty lame.

the last true stage i remember was in 2007 giro, stage to briancon, the battle on izoard and the mountain before, where the top 4-5 riders were isolated form the midle of the stage. now that's a fight. a similar stage was in 2005 tour, i thing the one ending to plateau du bonascre, with the atacks on pailheres.

 

[ingsve]

But the 09 Giro was the most boring in recent memory. Let's recap:

1. Menchov wins even though he needs trainer-wheels to stay upright.
2. Everyone focussed on LA even though he is clearly riding as comeback preparation for the Tour.
3. Di Luca. Everyone knows he's been doping for ages so no real credibility in his ride. (Good "evil eyes" stare though).
4. Someone dominated the sprints. Ale-Jet underperformed again.
5. Can't remember anything else from the race.

Compared with some of the recent Giros with the Cunego/Simoni/Salvodelli battles 09 was pretty lame.

I don't think the Giro was that boring. There was a few finishing climbs in the beginning where none of the favourites attacked until the last km but that was mostly in the first week where they had lots of racing still to do. Then the key stage was neutered a little which didn't help as well but there was still quite a bit of racing. Also Di Luca did make sure that there was racing on even the lesser stages where the favourites could have sat back and let a group get 15 minutes but LPR wanted Di Luca to go for bonus seconds so that made the race more interesting. Also the long and though ITT was a nice stage.

And there was quite a few breaks staying away as well so it's not like it was all sprints. And Ale-Jet did take two stages and Cavendish three so I wouldn't say one rider dominated totally...Overall I'd say the Tour was alot more boring than the Giro...

 

[laziali]

I don't think the Giro was that boring ... Also Di Luca did make sure that there was racing on even the lesser stages where the favourites could have sat back and let a group get 15 minutes but LPR wanted Di Luca to go for bonus seconds so that made the race more interesting.

I don't disagree that LPR and the Killer tore it up, but when you know they are doping, confirmed now with positives Di Luca and Gabriele Bosiso, it just doesn't feel that exciting. Not for me anyway.

 

[ingsve]

I don't disagree that LPR and the Killer tore it up, but when you know they are doping, confirmed now with positives Di Luca and Gabriele Bosiso, it just doesn't feel that exciting. Not for me anyway.

Well, the excitement of a race happens when you're watching not months later...

 

[egtalbot]

sometimes I wonder if people just like to complain for something to do. Actually, I know they do. The statistics don't bear out that the number of mountaintop finishes is lower than normal, nor that the amount of overall climbing is less than normal. So the original post was pretty much based on an invalid premise. Will this year's race be less exciting than most? Maybe. If it is, it will probably have more to do with the riders than the route.

For me personally, I have found every grand tour interesting for the past decade since I started watching them in the late 1990's with Ullrich's win (followed them in the 80's but was unable to "watch" them). There are always some stages that wind up boring, but there's always a lot of action in the three weeks. I enjoy watching a dominant sprinter like cav and I enjoy something like the beginning of this year's Vuelta where it was up for grabs. I enjoy a rider and team dominating the front like Postal/Armstrong for several years and I enjoy an up for grabs battle like Contador's first win. For me the tension and hoopla this year added to the enjoyment, not lessened it.

 

[Rupert]

Yes!!

sometimes I wonder if people just like to complain for something to do. Actually, I know they do. ... I enjoy watching a dominant sprinter like cav and I enjoy something like the beginning of this year's Vuelta where it was up for grabs. I enjoy a rider and team dominating the front like Postal/Armstrong for several years and I enjoy an up for grabs battle like Contador's first win. For me the tension and hoopla this year added to the enjoyment, not lessened it.

Very good post all 'round - I agree completely, although I personally enjoy the mountain stages a lot more than the spring finishes. Not that we need 3 weeks of mountain stages only. I also like seeing the breakaway succeed, especially when the peloton is TRYING to catch them and don't (as opposed to the occasions where they just let them go and they win by several minutes).

 

[Boeing]

MNT top finishes are only good when the right climb is choosen anyway. Screw these MNT finishes where 20 riders come in together.

word my brother

 

[Russell]

5-6 mountain top finishes

Okay, let me be the one who said I witnessed those 2 tours-and what I mean by treachery. It was the third week and the last great Col de Madeline was looming, I was standing at 3k to go to the summit, and riders were so thin it was scary, the faces on some of the domestiques were holocaustic Pink Floyd The Wall-faced out dead man walking, feeling of death. The white cold pain inside your body. I saw that then. This year? The Columbier was hard but Dave Zabrieski and the Poka Dot jersey came up after 4 minutes from the lead looking as if it was a sunday ride. I asked Zabriski if he was going to win the time trial tomorrow and he responded as if he was sitting on the couch.

That is what I am talking about!!!!!!!!!! These guys are not getting the pasting anymore. Lance needs that to beat Contador. Lance is a diesel now and needs the cols, he got better every mountain. If the TDF was 4 weeks and 5 cols, Lance would win.

 

[icefire]

It's not only a question of chosing the right climb to finish the stage. It's also the course that takes the riders to the last climb: the mileage and the number of climbs preceding the last one.

For one reason or another, ASO pretends us to think that shorter mileages means that riders will do with less 'extra help', so we won't see mountain stages longer than 200km with several serious climbs.

From the 3 MTF, I only see the one in Bonascre with a good selection made in the preceding mountain pass.

 

[Echoes]

Tour de France sucks. I no longer watch it.

 

[Race Radio]

Are we counting the Luchon stage next year as a summit finish? This has the chance of doing some damage to the GC guys. The final climb is a solid one, about 3,500 feet of vertical. Is is then less then 10km, all steep downhill, to the finish. This stage could be the sleeper.