Team DSM thread

[King Boonen]

Mod hat on:

Gentle reminder that speculation about doping belongs in the clinic, not here.

Cheers,

KB.

 

[BlueRoads]

Ah sorry, I constantly mix the threads up and think I'm in the clinic when I'm not. Deleted my post.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Maybe it's time to change the thread title to team DSM.

Most of the things that are going wrong with these professional amateurs is in the following article.

‘Zwaar teleurstellend Team DSM moet waken voor verdere leegloop’

Opinie Het is niet het jaar van Team DSM. Die conclusie konden wel al na het voorjaar, na de Giro d’Italia en inmiddels ook halverwege de Tour de France maken. Vraag de gemiddelde wielerfan om het shirt van nieuwkomer Team DSM te omschrijven en er is een grote kans dat hij geen flauw benul heeft […]

www.wielerflits.nl

 

[RedheadDane]

Seems like they've decided across the board to pick only one rider on each squad to take care of the wins this season. Bit strange, considering that they've lost riders in the past partially due to their refusal to have one rider be the big star on the team.
The ladies definitely have to most success with that strategy, with Wiebes winning nine races so far.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Seems like they've decided across the board to pick only one rider on each squad to take care of the wins this season. Bit strange, considering that they've lost riders in the past partially due to their refusal to have one rider be the big star on the team.
The ladies definitely have to most success with that strategy, with Wiebes winning nine races so far.

The story of them treating their riders like children... You can take this extremely literaly. What i've heard is nothing short of disgusting and if i were in that position, it would end with my fist in their face.

 

[RedheadDane]

The story of them treating their riders like children... You can take this extremely literaly. What i've heard is nothing short of disgusting and if i were in that position, it would end with my fist in their face.

But not like they haven't usually been successfull. Men's WorldTeam last year; 16 wins with I counted 9 different riders.
Even before lockdown they already had 7 wins.

 

[Monte Serra]

According to Raymond Kerckhoffs at Wielerflits, it's head coach Rudi Kemna who causes most of the discontent among riders. He is described as being tactless and doesn't treat riders with much respect. Head honcho Spekenbrink is currently sick at home, so it's Kemna who leads the team this Tour de France.

The article also documents the lack of technical support for riders. That is apparently partly caused by logistical issues. The team claims they can't supply everyone with a tt-bike, as they haven't received all the parts for their new Scott bikes.

https://www.wielerflits.be/nieuws/zwaar-teleurstellend-team-dsm-moet-waken-voor-verdere-leegloop/

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

According to Raymond Kerckhoffs at Wielerflits, it's head coach Rudi Kemna who causes most of the discontent among riders. He is described as being tactless and doesn't treat riders with much respect. Head honcho Spekenbrink is currently sick at home, so it's Kemna who leads the team this Tour de France.

The article also documents the lack of technical support for riders. That is apparently partly caused by logistical issues. The team claims they can't supply everyone with a tt-bike, as they haven't received all the parts for their new Scott bikes.

https://www.wielerflits.be/nieuws/zwaar-teleurstellend-team-dsm-moet-waken-voor-verdere-leegloop/

Their data analyst is a geologist. The father of Arensman publicly ridiculed the team management in a comment on Wielerflits. Like i said in the Van Wilder thread, he won't be the last. When a father of a pro cyclist makes a statement like that while his son is still riding for a team, you know the sht has hit the fan. The team probably also doesn't realize Van Wilder and Arensman are good friends. These are their two best GC talents, imho more so than Leknessund and Brenner.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Things are rumbling at Team DSM, where even Benoot is becoming increasingly annoyed by rule-making and tight straitjacket

It continues to mess around at Team DSM. It was leaked this week that Ilan Van Wilder is also aiming for a departure. And even the ideal employee Tiesj Benoot is no longer one hundred percent happy. What is the problem with the German-Dutch formation, which also saw Tom Dumoulin, Marc Hirschi and Michael Matthews leave earlier than planned? For example, last summer Australian Michael Storer was expelled from training camp for leaving the squad bubble to simply buy shampoo.

Last year Team Sunweb won three stage victories in the Tour. Halfway through this Tour, the counter is still at zero. Worse: No rider finished in the top five on any stage. In addition to the sporty malaise, there is also extra sporty noise. Tiesj Benoot gave up with a hamstring injury that was not sufficiently treated after the Tour of Switzerland. Ilan Van Wilder wants to cancel his contract and Soren Kragh Andersen is also driving around with a view of thunder. "If you put a geologist as a data analyst on top of the monkey rock of Performance, I think it makes sense that nothing is presented (sic)." This is a response by Martijn Arensman to an article by Wielerflits about Team DSM at the beginning of this week. His son Thymen is a Dutch climbing talent of Team DSM. The geologist targeted is Narelle Neumann. An Australian and crazy about the race, but with little background in cycling.

Nevertheless, Neumann is Head of Science at Team DSM. The German-Dutch team is known for its progressive scientific guidance, in which mainly young riders manifest themselves enormously. One of them is Cees Bol. The Dutch sprinter won a stage in Paris-Nice this year — Team DSM's only professional victory to date in 2022. Bol is not yet successful in the Tour. In four bunch sprints he did not come closer than sixth place. Not entirely illogical when you know that a month before the Tour, Bol was still in bed with a fever for six days.

Bol is not the only rider who started the Tour with physical discomfort. On Wednesday Tiesj Benoot left the Tour. The aftermath of two crashes at the start of the Tour took their toll. In addition, Benoot has been struggling with a hamstring injury since the opening time trial of the Tour de Suisse. For Switzerland, Benoot fine-tuned his position on the time trial bike, but for the time being that resulted in more disadvantage than advantage. Attempts were made to fix the problem in the Tour, but the medical staff present could not manage it.

Difficult relationship

Because Bol cannot sprint and Benoot has already gone home, Team DSM hopes for Soren Kragh Andersen to win a stage. The Dane won two stages last year, but is lagging behind this season. He finished last in the stage to Mont Ventoux. three seconds before expiration of the time limit. A statement to his team management? Since Paris-Nice there has been noise in his relationship with the team. Team DSM changed from Cervelo to Scott as bicycle supplier last winter. Kragh Andersen wanted to copy his position on his new time trial bike from the Cervelo bike, but that was met with a failure, followed by a lot of bickering. After his fifth place in the Paris-Nice time trial, the dispute was brought to such a head that the team did not let him start the next day. Officially, the Dane got off course with back problems. The real reason was that he was expected in the Netherlands for a new bikefittincl_ to clarify his position on the time trial bike.

Andersen still has a contract until the end of 2022, but would like to leave earlier. Only he has to pay a severance payment for that and he doesn't want that. Ilan Van Wilder is in the same boat. Our 21-year-old compatriot is bored because he is not allowed to go to the Vuelta. He was promised that before the season, but plans have changed. Last year, the rider from Opwijk was allowed to ride the Vuelta, but that was a poisoned gift. He started with knee pain and gave up after one ride. Afterwards it turned out that the team only let him show up because then they wouldn't have to pay a fine to the organization for starting with seven instead of eight riders.

Things are rumbling at Team DSM again: Benoot gives up, Van Wilder doesn't want to anymore and Andersen's face is on a thunderstorm PHOTO: PHOTO MARC VAN HECKE

In the radio platoon it can be heard that Van Wilder and Team DSM are now talking about dissolving the contract. His broker denies, but there is a lot of smoke blowing not to be a fire. Ineos-Grenadiers and Lotto-Soudal are already on hand for Van Wilder. The team management of Team DSM is also known for validating a termination of contract when it appears that the rider and team management are no longer on the same line. In the past, the contracts of Marcel Kittel, Warren Barguil, Edward Theuns, Tom Dumoulin, Michael Matthews have already been dissolved. At the beginning of this year, Marc Hirschi was also added to that list. Wilco Kelderman and Sam Oomen were also not sorry that their contract with Team Sunweb then expired at the end of 2021 and they could leave (free).

 

[Monte Serra]

Their data analyst is a geologist. The father of Arensman publicly ridiculed the team management in a comment on Wielerflits. Like i said in the Van Wilder thread, he won't be the last. When a father of a pro cyclist makes a statement like that while his son is still riding for a team, you know the sht has hit the fan. The team probably also doesn't realize Van Wilder and Arensman are good friends. These are their two best GC talents, imho more so than Leknessund and Brenner.

Even if they realise that Arensman and Van Wilder are good friends, the team probably doesn't care. It seems management is impervious to human emotions. They also didn't offer new contracts to Ten Dam and Geschke, which really pissed off Dumoulin, as they were his biggest sources of moral support.

 

[Valv.Piti]

This is basically what we already knew, just with some juicy details.. a pathetic team and I hope all their best riders manges to get out of that shithole. It really blows my mind, and at this point they probably cant even attract big talents which they used to do before.. at least I dont hope so. Leaving so young is new, so that should speak volumes. It used to be the big stars, but apparently it has trickled down so now everyone feels its a shitshow.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

This is basically what we already knew, just with some juicy details.. a pathetic team and I hope all their best riders manges to get out of that shithole. It really blows my mind, and at this point they probably cant even attract big talents which they used to do before.. at least I dont hope so. Leaving so young is new, so that should speak volumes. It used to be the big stars, but apparently it has trickled down so now everyone feels its a shitshow.

Not sure what you mean, since they recently hooked Van Wilder (2020), Arensman (second half 2020), Brenner (2021) and Leknessund (2021). I would consider those to be among the biggest talents in WT, but maybe you mean "after these new revelations". Otherwise, they are clearly still capable of duping young talents into signing with them. Let's see if this actually has an effect on incoming transfers. We can only hope.

I think they are actually liable to see riders pack up and leave and treat their contract like toilet paper. No judge in his right mind is going to hold a person to a contract when working conditions are this horrible. Bullying, intimidation, blackmailing, abuse of power... that's how they want to keep their riders in check. While managment itself is an amateurish joke when it comes to their own responsibilities and abilities. This goes way beyond "not having the right material" for their riders. Remember the "shampoo-story". At the time might have seemed reasonable due to the Covid implications, turns out that they do the exact same thing regardless, as long as someone colors outside the line.

 

[RedheadDane]

Just a reminder:

And Søren Kragh Andersen, who won two stage wins in the Tour de France last year, has already had a fierce clash with the team management over his cycling position this season in Paris-Nice.

Not actually true. He debunked that story long ago.

Forbløffet dansk Tour-helt: - Hvor kommer det fra? – Ekstra Bladet

 

[Valv.Piti]

Not sure what you mean, since they recently hooked Van Wilder (2020), Arensman (second half 2020), Brenner (2021) and Leknessund (2021). I would consider those to be among the biggest talents in WT, but maybe you mean "after these new revelations". Otherwise, they are clearly still capable of duping young talents into signing with them. Let's see if this actually has an effect on incoming transfers. We can only hope.

I think they are actually liable to see riders pack up and leave and treat their contract like toilet paper. No judge in his right mind is going to hold a person to a contract when working conditions are this horrible. Bullying, intimidation, blackmailing, abuse of power... that's how they want to keep their riders in check. While managment itself is an amateurish joke when it comes to their own responsibilities and abilities. This goes way beyond "not having the right material" for their riders. Remember the "shampoo-story". At the time might have seemed reasonable due to the Covid implications, turns out that they do the exact same thing regardless, as long as someone colors outside the line.

Obviously its after the revelations. It used to be the big stars, not the still very young and up and coming riders

 

[Axel Hangleck]

Surely sponsors/suppliers are asking questions as to why talented riders decide to go elsewhere? And if not, maybe they should be.....

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

As predicted, Van Wilder wasn't the only one. Leknessund wants to leave DSM as well, he's not even been there for a whole season. Gall also wants to go.

Ook talenten Andreas Leknessund en Felix Gall willen weg bij Team DSM

De Noor Andreas Leknessund (22) en de Oostenrijker Felix Gall (23) willen na diverse incidenten hun doorlopende contact bij Team DSM op het einde van dit jaar verbreken. Eerder meldde WielerFlits reeds dat het Belgische talent Ilan van Wilder (21) na een gesprek met de leiding van de ploeg...

www.wielerflits.nl

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

You wonder at which point the sponsor (DSM) does something and tells management to get their act together. DSM has a contract until 2024 but if management keeps scaring riders away at some point the gig is up

 

[AlfaLum]

Yeah, we can all laugh about Sunweb/DSM. But, a few years ago, when cycling was considered to be relatively clean they got their *** together quite well. They were the cleanest of the bunch, and they were one of the best in developing riders over the long-term into riders that would win something.

These last years have seen a shift. All of a sudden there are certain teams for whom long-term development is no longer a thing, because they just develop youngsters into extreme winners in no time. And similar talents who have chosen to go for other teams (such as DSM) in recent years are incapable of following the super fast development trajectories.

So we can all laugh at DSM now, because they are super silly and no rider wants to ride for them anymore. But it might well be that in a few years the laughter is over when we all find out that DSM was doing thing the ethical way in a sport that was still recovering from the previous blow.

 

[Axel Hangleck]

One or two riders leaving can happen. When it keeps happening, then there is a major problem. As I said earlier, surely sponsors want to know why promising riders leave?

 

[Netserk]

Yeah, we can all laugh about Sunweb/DSM. But, a few years ago, when cycling was considered to be relatively clean they got their *** together quite well. They were the cleanest of the bunch, and they were one of the best in developing riders over the long-term into riders that would win something.

These last years have seen a shift. All of a sudden there are certain teams for whom long-term development is no longer a thing, because they just develop youngsters into extreme winners in no time. And similar talents who have chosen to go for other teams (such as DSM) in recent years are incapable of following the super fast development trajectories.

So we can all laugh at DSM now, because they are super silly and no rider wants to ride for them anymore. But it might well be that in a few years the laughter is over when we all find out that DSM was doing thing the ethical way in a sport that was still recovering from the previous blow.

Doping discussions are for the clinic; you can post about the team in that respect here: https://forum.cyclingnews.com/threads/sunweb.33579/

 

[Monte Serra]

Yeah, we can all laugh about Sunweb/DSM. But, a few years ago, when cycling was considered to be relatively clean they got their *** together quite well. They were the cleanest of the bunch, and they were one of the best in developing riders over the long-term into riders that would win something.

These last years have seen a shift. All of a sudden there are certain teams for whom long-term development is no longer a thing, because they just develop youngsters into extreme winners in no time. And similar talents who have chosen to go for other teams (such as DSM) in recent years are incapable of following the super fast development trajectories.

So we can all laugh at DSM now, because they are super silly and no rider wants to ride for them anymore. But it might well be that in a few years the laughter is over when we all find out that DSM was doing thing the ethical way in a sport that was still recovering from the previous blow.

This isn't the right forum to raise these kind of theories, I would think.

And mods, what about changing the topic title to "Team DSM thread"? @Red Rick @King Boonen

 

[BlueRoads]

Yeah, we can all laugh about Sunweb/DSM. But, a few years ago, when cycling was considered to be relatively clean they got their *** together quite well. They were the cleanest of the bunch, and they were one of the best in developing riders over the long-term into riders that would win something.

These last years have seen a shift. All of a sudden there are certain teams for whom long-term development is no longer a thing, because they just develop youngsters into extreme winners in no time. And similar talents who have chosen to go for other teams (such as DSM) in recent years are incapable of following the super fast development trajectories.

So we can all laugh at DSM now, because they are super silly and no rider wants to ride for them anymore. But it might well be that in a few years the laughter is over when we all find out that DSM was doing thing the ethical way in a sport that was still recovering from the previous blow.

What does cleanliness have to do with authoritarian, controlling behaviour, though?
At this point it's not just rumours anymore, they have an awful way of treating their riders. Rules are not bad, it's also not bad to have scientific, fresh approaches to many things, I guess that's what they are able to show young riders and why talents come to them.
But at a certain point rules are not just rules anymore. What we hear about DSM borders on personality disorders. Obviously they are unable to see that athletes need to be trusted in certain feelings about their bodies. The riders need some room for decisions themselves, even more than the general employee, because it's about their bodies, their pain, because each body is different and needs something else and it's part of the growing up of an athlete to be able to tell if for instance a certain position is right for you, if you are too hurt to ride a race and so on. Clearly the riders need expert help to make these decisions, especially young ones, but that doesn't mean they should be treated like they know nothing about their bodies and their minds.

The second aspect is the long-term development, which I think DSM doesn't really stand for, think for instance of Marco Brenner who went to DSM because they were willing to give him bigger chances in bigger races, while Bora insisted on a slower approach like they have taken with many riders - clearly too slow for an ambitious young rider like Brenner.

 

[AlfaLum]

Doping discussions are for the clinic; you can post about the team in that respect here: https://forum.cyclingnews.com/threads/sunweb.33579/

Its a DSM discussion. Something has shifted in the last few years and DSM is not performing anymore.

What does cleanliness have to do with authoritarian, controlling behaviour, though?
At this point it's not just rumours anymore, they have an awful way of treating their riders. Rules are not bad, it's also not bad to have scientific, fresh approaches to many things, I guess that's what they are able to show young riders and why talents come to them.
But at a certain point rules are not just rules anymore. What we hear about DSM borders on personality disorders. Obviously they are unable to see that athletes need to be trusted in certain feelings about their bodies. The riders need some room for decisions themselves, even more than the general employee, because it's about their bodies, their pain, because each body is different and needs something else and it's part of the growing up of an athlete to be able to tell if for instance a certain position is right for you, if you are too hurt to ride a race and so on. Clearly the riders need expert help to make these decisions, especially young ones, but that doesn't mean they should be treated like they know nothing about their bodies and their minds.

The second aspect is the long-term development, which I think DSM doesn't really stand for, think for instance of Marco Brenner who went to DSM because they were willing to give him bigger chances in bigger races, while Bora insisted on a slower approach like they have taken with many riders - clearly too slow for an ambitious young rider like Brenner.

Well maybe they are not treating their riders well, i don't know. It feels a little bit weird to me that for the largest part the management and training staff has been the same of the last decade. The same persons who celebrated a lot of successes by developing young riders are now persons that receive criticism to a level where people indicate they have personality disorders. Have they really changed their approach that much during those years?

It just feels a little bit weird to me. I just have a feeling that Sunweb/DSM have become less successful with their approach during recent years because of some other factors that have changed in cycling (I'm not indicating that it's dope, might be legal things happening) leading to a sport that is currently being practiced at two speeds. As a result of that some of the amazing talents that DSM have not been able to develop in the same way that other similar talents have been developing. And for me it is only logical that certain talents will start questioning the environment in which they are operating if they all of a sudden get beaten big time by riders they used to beat just a few years before.

And so, and I think this is very much on-topic even if it is not a popular opinion, I think we should be careful turning DSM into some kind of laughing stock. Because in a few years, ridiculing them, might not have been so funny after all.

 

[ppanther92]

Yeah, we can all laugh about Sunweb/DSM. But, a few years ago, when cycling was considered to be relatively clean they got their *** together quite well. They were the cleanest of the bunch, and they were one of the best in developing riders over the long-term into riders that would win something.

These last years have seen a shift. All of a sudden there are certain teams for whom long-term development is no longer a thing, because they just develop youngsters into extreme winners in no time. And similar talents who have chosen to go for other teams (such as DSM) in recent years are incapable of following the super fast development trajectories.

So we can all laugh at DSM now, because they are super silly and no rider wants to ride for them anymore. But it might well be that in a few years the laughter is over when we all find out that DSM was doing thing the ethical way in a sport that was still recovering from the previous blow.

Well, they said they are the cleanest.

And how do you explain Hindley or Hirschi and last year's TdF in general (when you claim that new times changed everything)? Edited the rest, cause not the right place to discuss it.

 

[Netserk]

AlfaLum, you are inviting (anti-)doping discussion. If you don't want to discuss that (in the clinic), you should delete that from your post (here).