Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

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The idea that one can make any kind of determination about a person's weight from 2 or more photos is misguided. If you understand photography fairly well, you understand that angle of light, position of subject, lens distortion and post-processing (or lack thereof) can and do have dramatic effect on the apparent weight of subjects.

Looking at 2 photos taken at different times by different photographers with almost certainly different equipment with almost certainly differing levels of post-processing and comparing them offers absolutely no concrete information about the relative weight of a subject. No matter how much you think you see "baby fat" in a subject, it is quite likely a difference in the photography. Especially for photos of someone a few weeks apart.

The clinic lore that seems to be taking hold is that Froome underwent some massive weight transformation in a few weeks and even during the Vuelta. There is absolutely no convincing evidence of this. The photography tells you nothing, no matter how much you think you see a fatter version in one photo over another. He could be fatter, it could be any number of different photographic factors.

For example: http://thehautegirl.com/2014/05/14/4-big-reasons-you-look-fat-in-photographs/
 
Oct 10, 2015
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red_flanders said:
The idea that one can make any kind of determination about a person's weight from 2 or more photos is misguided.
On one hand, I agree wholeheartedly. But I don't need any references to be convinced. I have photos of myself where clearly I look leaner or more muscular than I know myself to be. It happens. For sure.

However, what to make of this? This can NOT just be the result of lighting and/or lens choice. Can it?
harryh said:
 
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vedrafjord said:
Via @DUBCycleWeather, maybe it was posted before but I'm not checking 1800 pages to find out:



Someone didn't get the memo about chocolate... if I had all that stuff on a 4 hour ride I'd get diabetes.

It's not there any more btw - right now they just have the bidon.
I'm not sure I really get the uproar over this.

No, I wouldn't take that much stuff on a four hour ride generally, even a very hard one and I much prefer coffee and cake. I probably wouldn't even take it on a 6 hour ride, but essentially it seems to boil down to 5 gels, a couple of bidons, two bars and a shake. If someone is riding a Sportive, 150+ km with 2000+ m climbing and trying to push themselves then they could easily get through that lot.
 
Jun 22, 2015
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Is it forbidden for sky riders to upload their wattage to strava? I ve never seen strava files with power from sky riders. And kwiatkowski did it for pretty much every ride but since the first day of the sky training camp in december he stopped doing it. And i don't think that his new bike doesn't have a powermeter on.
 
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Electress said:
Implication seems pretty clear to me - this is what you need for your ride - singular. Having done various charity events and triathlons I can certainly concur with those who have seen all bar the proverbial kitchen sink being carried about 'incase of emergencies'

Frankly, I'd rather spend my 14.99 on a jar of nutella and a cup of coffee with my amigos, but we all know what Sky think about such dangerously subversive non-nutritional practices.

So who'll be the first to doctor said image with a list of banned substances ??
I can see it now:
Motoman Team Sky 4 Hour 'Fuel' pack..available off prescription from a dodgy doctor in Monaco ? Now there's the real cutting edge science in sport, I fear.

I await with baited breath the Limited Edition Team Sky / SiS Exclusive Eqyptian Cotton and memory foam pillows.
It's all nonesense. Talent and only doping can make the difference. Why I rode a very demanding Granfondo in the Marche region of Italy in June 2013, having the night before drank white wine and a grappa at dinner (the next morning for breakfast I had a cappuccino and corneto) and finished 13th out of 4,000. :p
 
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King Boonen said:
I'm not sure I really get the uproar over this.

No, I wouldn't take that much stuff on a four hour ride generally, even a very hard one and I much prefer coffee and cake. I probably wouldn't even take it on a 6 hour ride, but essentially it seems to boil down to 5 gels, a couple of bidons, two bars and a shake. If someone is riding a Sportive, 150+ km with 2000+ m climbing and trying to push themselves then they could easily get through that lot.
I posted it originally and didn't intend any uproar - just thought it was humourous that Sky's science/marginal gains image is being used to sell what's essentially very expensive sugar to (I'm guessing) affluent middle-aged men.
 
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robin440 said:
Is it forbidden for sky riders to upload their wattage to strava? I ve never seen strava files with power from sky riders. And kwiatkowski did it for pretty much every ride but since the first day of the sky training camp in december he stopped doing it. And i don't think that his new bike doesn't have a powermeter on.
No, we can't be trusted to understand the data. Must keep it hidden for our own good. All in the name of "total transparency".
 
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robin440 said:
Is it forbidden for sky riders to upload their wattage to strava? I ve never seen strava files with power from sky riders. And kwiatkowski did it for pretty much every ride but since the first day of the sky training camp in december he stopped doing it. And i don't think that his new bike doesn't have a powermeter on.
I think so, they have a partnership with Training Peaks, so it wouldn't look good if the riders use a competitor.

If you look around you can find Sky riders on Training Peaks.

Edit: Catwhoorg beat me to it, he's even linked Froome's data for the 2011 Salamanca TT.
 
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red_flanders said:
robin440 said:
Is it forbidden for sky riders to upload their wattage to strava? I ve never seen strava files with power from sky riders. And kwiatkowski did it for pretty much every ride but since the first day of the sky training camp in december he stopped doing it. And i don't think that his new bike doesn't have a powermeter on.
No, we can't be trusted to understand the data. Must keep it hidden for our own good. All in the name of "total transparency".
No one can be trusted with the data. Not even Tim Kerrison and his 6% downward variance. David Walsh doesn't even trust himself with power data. It's difficult to comprehend. Avg watts / kg, I think. Something like that.
 
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vedrafjord said:
King Boonen said:
I'm not sure I really get the uproar over this.

No, I wouldn't take that much stuff on a four hour ride generally, even a very hard one and I much prefer coffee and cake. I probably wouldn't even take it on a 6 hour ride, but essentially it seems to boil down to 5 gels, a couple of bidons, two bars and a shake. If someone is riding a Sportive, 150+ km with 2000+ m climbing and trying to push themselves then they could easily get through that lot.
I posted it originally and didn't intend any uproar - just thought it was humourous that Sky's science/marginal gains image is being used to sell what's essentially very expensive sugar to (I'm guessing) affluent middle-aged men.
No worries, I can certainly see that and I'm sure you're right about the target audience!

For what it's worth white chocolate and macadamia nut Clif Bars are a much better source of sugar on an isolated ride! :D
 
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Jacques de Molay said:
red_flanders said:
The idea that one can make any kind of determination about a person's weight from 2 or more photos is misguided.
On one hand, I agree wholeheartedly. But I don't need any references to be convinced. I have photos of myself where clearly I look leaner or more muscular than I know myself to be. It happens. For sure.

However, what to make of this? This can NOT just be the result of lighting and/or lens choice. Can it?
harryh said:
They are lit very differently, but they are all studio shots taken from a similar angle, years apart. They certainly may be misleading as to the amount of weight at any one point but with 3 photos taken from the same angle and that dramatic of a loss, you can possibly assume a trend. Maybe. There are deep shadows on his neck and cheekbones in one of the shots, there is a different background and opposite jersey color in another, and side-lighting in another. Makes it really hard to say anything definitive, never mind all the possible lens differences, lens correction and post processing that have likely been done differently.

It stands to reason that in the current climate a rider is getting thinner over time. These photos seem to confirm that intuition. But the lighting is doing a LOT to create that look.

What you can't do, is assign any particular weight to it as many have done for other photos. My point was about comparing photos of Froome, taken from different angles, at different times of the day, by different photographers with different equipment, 6 weeks apart and make anything of them. Let alone specific weight loss or gain. That is absurd.
 
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