Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

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I don't understand any of this. I read cyclingnews and this forum and it sounds like it is all coming down. Like the whole operation is crumbling and I turn the TV on and the next thing I see is the Sky train. So what is it?

I thought it was the same team structure, therefore is the same thing isn't it??
 
Re:

Escarabajo said:
I don't understand any of this. I read cyclingnews and this forum and it sounds like it is all coming down. Like the whole operation is crumbling and I turn the TV on and the next thing I see is the Sky train. So what is it?

I thought it was the same team structure, therefore is the same thing isn't it??
It's not coming down. But the credibility of Sky and BC cycling is/has been seriously damaged. The Omerta is strong. BUT, having said that, the next logical step is for Freeman and Wiggins to be put on the hot chair. It seems they are the only two who know what was in the Jiffy and how it was administered. Of course they aren't, but it seems there has been a hell of a lot of amnesia/lying going on so far. It's obvious what the Jiffy contained given, the now proven, Dr Freeman's drug repository in Manchester.
 
Re: Re:

ferryman said:
Escarabajo said:
I don't understand any of this. I read cyclingnews and this forum and it sounds like it is all coming down. Like the whole operation is crumbling and I turn the TV on and the next thing I see is the Sky train. So what is it?

I thought it was the same team structure, therefore is the same thing isn't it??
It's not coming down. But the credibility of Sky and BC cycling is/has been seriously damaged. The Omerta is strong. BUT, having said that, the next logical step is for Freeman and Wiggins to be put on the hot chair. It seems they are the only two who know what was in the Jiffy and how it was administered. Of course they aren't, but it seems there has been a hell of a lot of amnesia/lying going on so far. It's obvious what the Jiffy contained given, the now proven, Dr Freeman's drug repository in Manchester.
There is still a lot more to come, this is just the beginning. The press has already turned on Wiggins, they can see as well as we all did, that there is a massive cover up. No one liked seeing Cope hung out to dry by Wiggins, it was awful to watch. Freeman apparently is very sick, his mental health is in question. Appears Brailsford had expected him to delete the records & not tell the truth.

Lawton also is about to print the real drug in the pacakge.



 
Re: Re:

DingoGuesdon said:
Random Direction said:
We are expected to believe that (a) Sky / BC did not have any copies of Dr. Freeman's records; (b) Dr. Freeman never, not even once, synced or backed up his core medical records between June 2011 and 2014; (c) Same laptop was used in 2011 as in 2014. What a joke.
You are expected to believe that the setup which allowed utter anihilation of opponents on the road and on track thanks to an accumulation of marginal gains was not rigorous enough to keep files on their athletes' health.
Touche.

The Sky narrative is splintering into a thousand pieces under the (Kenacort induced) weight of its contradictions.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Re: Re:

thehog said:
sniper said:
thehog said:
Benotti69 said:
Fully expect Freeman to claim he forgets what was in Jiffy bag and lost laptop to check his records.

Hope Freeman gets struck off, but i doubt it. Dr Bonar didn't.

But the investigation has been very weak, if at all. MPs have been the ones making ground. As usual outside forces are the ones doing the work of Anit-doping Authorities.

Sport is beyond fixing.
UKAD had little to no interest in investigating, it's only once it got to the CMS level they were forced to pretend they were doing something. You can clearly see Brailsford & co. have been running rings around UKAD for years.
Totally.

It was fascinating to see how uncomfortable Sapstead seemed to be whilst having to suggest wrongdoing by Team Sky.
That UKAD still haven't checked whether Freeman went to the police when his laptop was stolen is hilarious.
Sapstead had to invoke Interpol to make it seem like they're actually doing something.

Everything in her body language suggested a deeply rooted "We shall not step on any toes" attitude at UKAD.

UKAD need a pitbull, not a lapdog, running things.
She was. She finds a treasure trove of cortisone but decides against pursuing it because she didn't want to change the scope of the investigation. You could tell for years, she and Brailsford are chums. He only reason this got to where it did, was the non-Investgation of Bonor and handing over information to the GMC and the CMS Committee.
Indeed.
Anyone praising Sapstead is not seeing the timeline and asking the question: since when did she knew things were not above board?

Sapstead and UKAD were going to wrap this up in December and then suddenly Nicole Cooke ripped Brailsford & BC/Sky apart in that Guardian article.
To my understanding that's when Sapstead got the invite from Damian Collins and suddenly Sapstead was fighting for her job. Sapstead knew it was either her job or put BC/Sky in the spotlight and she went with the latter.
And so she had to send out the team to get serious. That generated the late night session in manchester with Freeman throwing his computer in the dumpster somewhere. :D
Anyway, this is a 6 months investigation but it still appears like they have only completed the first two weeks of it.
 
Re:

Saint Unix said:
What are the chances that the whole operation will come crumbling down because of this? I haven't been able to follow the case as much as I'd liked and am a bit fuzzy on the details and the severity of it all.

Nothing would please me more than a US Postal-level meltdown. Is it possible?
I think there's a good chance of it melting down. They are by far the best funded pro team, and that was/is with the explicit purpose of having GB winners of the TDF, which = maximum PR exposure for Sky.

But the moment that PR exposure turns from glowing to toxic, is the moment of the meltdown ~ and we seem right on the cusp of that turn. No one wants to pay for toxic PR. They'll be out of there quick if the ordinary folk look at a Sky jersey and immediately think 'dirty.' And are we really that far from this?
 
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/ukad-launch-damning-attack-on-team-sky-and-british-cycling-over-medical-practices/
"On Wednesday evening, Team Sky released a statement.

"Team Sky has co-operated fully with UKAD’s investigation, and we will continue to do so," the statement read. "As we have said throughout, we are confident there has been no wrongdoing."

So the papperwork is shredded and the laptop is somewhere at the bottom of the Manchester Canal.
Mission accomplished!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/othersports/article-4273086/UKAD-chief-damns-Team-Sky-s-dubious-story-package.html
"Collins told Sapstead: ‘The overall picture you create is extremely concerning’ and afterwards stressed the desire to put questions to Freeman. It was claimed last night he has requested treatment from a psychiatrist."
So he'll never testify then ...
 
Feb 23, 2011
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Irondan said:
I genuinely feel bad for the fans of Team Sky, it's too bad they all have to go through this along with the characters involved.

The good thing is that they have some great riders that are not a part of this and the season is heating up!

Sky fans have a lot to cheer for, especially when the Tour rolls around. :)
I agree on your sentiment towards the fans who have genuinely backed Team Sky.

However surely your comment about the other 'great riders' who are not involved in 2016/17 is tongue in cheek.

Sapstead didn't book end what UKAD found in terms of a timescale i.e. after 2014 and all riders not connected with Freeman are riding clean and without an 'out of competition PED regime'.

She found that that there was stockpiling of high potency Corticosteroids suggestive of it being for more than one rider.

Don't get me wrong I am all for innocent until proven guilty but this is far from the slam dunk, "pin it all on Freeman/Cope/Wiggins" the rest of us are home scot free. All of Sky and British Cycling are tarnished by this and with so many questions still unanswered, making the separation between wrongdoers and non wrongdoers is extremely premature indeed.

Such a presumption is based on wishful thinking which the history of this sport has proved is massively misguided.
 
May 27, 2010
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pastronef said:
keeponrollin said:
pastronef said:
Irondan said:
Where are all the Sky defenders?

It's a serious question, I haven't seen much of them on this thread in the past six months or so.

I'm just curious if they left the forum because of the fallout of the TUE saga or other reasons....
well, it´s not easy. actually I hope no official sanction will be issued nor cash shortage from Sky. but it´s just a wish. I know they are in biiiig shyt, I am holding steady on the boards while the ship sinks, but I wish it all stays in the Clinic and on Twitter, where we know what the awful truth is. I just dont want to hear the people officially say "we told you" when-if wins and knighthoods will be stripped and Ukad, Wada and the committee will issue official news and confirmations.
it´s like Cancellara motor or Miguel EPO. we know it happened but not officially, no stripped wins etc

it´s childish I know, it´s a game, I am Italian, not even driven by national bias, neither having the Sky-love shoved down my throat every day like in UK (that´s what some UK twitter friends explained me)

one day I will understand what it took for Digger and co, the drive, the time, the energy it took for all these years to keep digging. one day I´ll open my eyes maybe.
but the level of vitriol from Digger, Hog and a few others I will never understand though, maybe that´s why I cheer Sky, for people blaming Froome on how he holds a coffee cup, for blaming him for training in S.A. where he grew up and raced and trained (while not caring about Dumoulin there) for moking Owain Doull when he was sick in January, for asking for Henao´s hospital pick saying he faked his crash, and many many other anecdotes.

what I hope is this 2011 mess won´t affect the 2017-18 season. for spite, because I want Sky to keep ruining races as the anti-sky and alberto-fans say
what would we want? katusha-astana-movi-bahrain to rule the races?
those clean teams? after the most evil and dangerous thing ever happened to cycling disappeared? naaaaaa!
I want Sky to keep racing, everyone has his own favourite doper and doped team!
the problem with all of this, is that out there, there are clean riders, who don't want to dope, & when they look at the Pro ranks, & what it takes to win, they just shrug their shoulders, & say; 'fuck it, I don't want to dope, why would I even try & make it as a Pro ?'

and cycling dies a little more ...
I understand. so ERASE THEM ALL. katusha astana movi sky bahrain etc. tabula rasa! away with them all.
I´m in, when does it begin?
Meh these non english speaking teams are old news. BMC and Orica are going to take Sky's spot and fly away.

Look at how great BMC and Orica are this year!
 
Sep 4, 2012
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Listened to Cope's evidence to the Select Committee on iplayer. Thought I would share what I took to be highlights. It was nice to see MPs of all stripes digging into a story that didn't add up.

(Chair begins by noting that the ill Dr Freeman refused video link.)

The story was, as Cope would be in the area anyway, he was asked to take the sealed jiffy bag on this trip. BUT... The travel schedule for this flight, booked before the jiffy bag was given to Cope, meant Cope would fly out from Gatwick to Geneva, hire a car, drive a couple of hours to the stage finish, pick up Sutton, and drive back to the airport for return flight that night. A lot of travel for a few hours at the finish. Why fly Cope out for a few hours visit at the race finish? What was the purpose of this trip meant to be if not a delivery? Cope had no answer, just doing what his boss asked. He thought he might bring back some bikes?

The idea he might be bringing back some bikes was questioned, as Sky booked him a car not a van.

There was no paperwork associated with the delivery from any party at any time.: when Cope was given the package, or when Freeman received the package.

Cope: this is the only time he has ever delivered a package to a team doctor.

Probably 5 or 6 MPs questioned the propriety of bringing a sealed bag, contents unknown, through airport security and customs, and misleading security officials regarding his knowledge of contents.

MPs: Sky cares more about the package than they care about you, asking you to lie to security. Cope admits that if this was a PED, he would now be implicated. Cope agrees he has been left to dangle by Sky.

Under aggressive questioning, Cope admits he finds some gossip about doping in cycling to be credible. MP: So why didn't he ask about the contents of this medical package? Cope: He didn't believe BC was doping

Disagreed with a piece of Sutton's evidence to Committee, who said Cope picked up Sutton and brought some equipment back. Cope says he brought nothing back.
 
Mar 10, 2009
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Re: Re:

sniper said:
thehog said:
Benotti69 said:
Fully expect Freeman to claim he forgets what was in Jiffy bag and lost laptop to check his records.

Hope Freeman gets struck off, but i doubt it. Dr Bonar didn't.

But the investigation has been very weak, if at all. MPs have been the ones making ground. As usual outside forces are the ones doing the work of Anit-doping Authorities.

Sport is beyond fixing.
UKAD had little to no interest in investigating, it's only once it got to the CMS level they were forced to pretend they were doing something. You can clearly see Brailsford & co. have been running rings around UKAD for years.
Totally.

It was fascinating to see how uncomfortable Sapstead seemed to be whilst having to suggest wrongdoing by Team Sky.
That UKAD still haven't checked whether Freeman went to the police when his laptop was stolen is hilarious.
Sapstead had to invoke Interpol to make it seem like they're actually doing something.

Everything in her body language suggested a deeply rooted "We shall not step on any toes" attitude at UKAD.

UKAD need a pitbull, not a lapdog, running things.
Perfect description of her evidence. Her Interpol answer was lame.
 
Re: Re:

pastronef said:
Irondan said:
Where are all the Sky defenders?

It's a serious question, I haven't seen much of them on this thread in the past six months or so.

I'm just curious if they left the forum because of the fallout of the TUE saga or other reasons....
well, it´s not easy. actually I hope no official sanction will be issued nor cash shortage from Sky. but it´s just a wish. I know they are in biiiig shyt, I am holding steady on the boards while the ship sinks, but I wish it all stays in the Clinic and on Twitter, where we know what the awful truth is. I just dont want to hear the people officially say "we told you" when-if wins and knighthoods will be stripped and Ukad, Wada and the committee will issue official news and confirmations.
it´s like Cancellara motor or Miguel EPO. we know it happened but not officially, no stripped wins etc

it´s childish I know, it´s a game, I am Italian, not even driven by national bias, neither having the Sky-love shoved down my throat every day like in UK (that´s what some UK twitter friends explained me)

one day I will understand what it took for Digger and co, the drive, the time, the energy it took for all these years to keep digging. one day I´ll open my eyes maybe.
but the level of vitriol from Digger, Hog and a few others I will never understand though, maybe that´s why I cheer Sky, for people blaming Froome on how he holds a coffee cup, for blaming him for training in S.A. where he grew up and raced and trained (while not caring about Dumoulin there) for moking Owain Doull when he was sick in January, for asking for Henao´s hospital pick saying he faked his crash, and many many other anecdotes.

what I hope is this 2011 mess won´t affect the 2017-18 season. for spite, because I want Sky to keep ruining races as the anti-sky and alberto-fans say
what would we want? katusha-astana-movi-bahrain to rule the races?
those clean teams? after the most evil and dangerous thing ever happened to cycling disappeared? naaaaaa!
I want Sky to keep racing, everyone has his own favourite doper and doped team!
Pffff. Big budget corporate prepotency, doing it all on marginal gains and because, of course, Brits do it better, blah, blah, blah. The reason why there has been so much animosity toward Skybots, is because they have tried to make themselves come across as the paladins of clean cycling (a model of excellence), while imposing an imperialist strategy that has merely made their hypocrisy intolerable. The truth is that they have only succeeded in doping better than all the rest.
 
Mar 10, 2009
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Re: Sky

keeponrollin said:
The Guys on Off the Ball said earlier that it had come out that Sky had previously bought Flumicil from regular pharmacies in Europe, & thereby shot holes in their own BS story that they needed the contents of the jiffybag, because they couldn't trust Flumicil bought anywhere but in the UK.

Has anyone heard this confirmed before ?
Sapstead said at CSC it was unlicensed at the time in UK and that TeamGB/Sky obtained it from two outlets in Europe, one in Germany and one in Switzerland. It 'was readily available on the doorstep (in France)', but reason for Simon Cope courier service was that Freeman said he was unsure of his prescription rights in France, and he wanted to be 100% sure of the concentration of the Flumicil he was using because strength can vary abroad. :lol:
 
Re: Sky

Though I root against Team Sky, I don't really want to see them disbanded. Heck, I don't even want them to stop doping, because the drop-off would be too blatant. But there are a few things I would like to see:

- Stop using motors. It's one thing to see Chris Froome kill it, it's another to see the dude cruise home on a motorbike aided by 2-3 other motorbikers. The former is fun to see (though we know it's dope-aided), the latter is not that fun. It's funny the first couple of times but the novelty wore off long ago.
- Cut out the bogus PR. Look, we know that they have great riders with great training programs with great dope and great motors. All this "marginal gains" stuff is just an insult.
- Lose once in a while. It's OK to win and to have a target on your back. But sometimes you just have to go easy on the motors and let the other guy win if they're stronger. The 2016 Vuelta was amusing for that reason. One of these years they should do that in a Tour.
- Get rid of the stupid in-race politics. The stage-neutralization at Ventoux was an absolute disgrace, along with the autobus in Stage 15 of the Vuelta. They should at least make a new rule disqualifying the lowest 20% of the field if more than 20% of the field is in an autobus that misses the time cut-off.

Let's see what 2017 brings, but I don't think that's too much to ask for. If Team Sky lays low with the bogus PR and their racing is more similar to the doped-up racing we're used to seeing - well, I'll still root against them, but no hard feelings if they win.
 
Dec 7, 2010
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Irondan said:
I genuinely feel bad for the fans of Team Sky, it's too bad they all have to go through this along with the characters involved.

The good thing is that they have some great riders that are not a part of this and the season is heating up!

Sky fans have a lot to cheer for, especially when the Tour rolls around. :)
Oh yeah I'm confident in the teams credibility no doubt.

You asked where the sky fans were?

I'm still looking for the clinic 12 - DQ - Betsy A. a few others. I can understand how they are not hammering away at this sky stuff. Or even Greg L. I guess greg will says something soon. :rolleyes:
 
Re: Re:

Semper Fidelis said:
Irondan said:
I genuinely feel bad for the fans of Team Sky, it's too bad they all have to go through this along with the characters involved.

The good thing is that they have some great riders that are not a part of this and the season is heating up!

Sky fans have a lot to cheer for, especially when the Tour rolls around. :)
Oh yeah I'm confident in the teams credibility no doubt.

You asked where the sky fans were?

I'm still looking for the clinic 12 - DQ - Betsy A. a few others. I can understand how they are not hammering away at this sky stuff. Or even Greg L. I guess greg will says something soon. :rolleyes:

Very true, although people "dedicated to anti-doping" have become very silent.
 
Re:

Dan2016 said:
BBC Radio Five Live discussion right now: Journalist just said he understands that Wiggins has been officially questioned over this too. Was that in private or something? Who knows. Anyway apparently he just said he took Flumicil at the time but no idea what was in the jiffy bag.

UKAD apparently have spent over 1000 man hours investigating this...and as we know still not one person can clarify what was in the infamous jiffy. I think I'd like to see UKAD given more investigative power. Sporting fraud, accounting fraud, liaise with police with threat of criminal charges etc.
Wiggins was interviewed by UKAD - I have no problem with Wiggin's answer - You visit your GP and they give you an injection for penicillin - Unless you test the substance at the time, you accept the doctor gave you penicillin.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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no one see the perverse irony about the MPs grilling Sky factotums in parliament and inquiries?

so... lets get this straight, they revel in the BoJo 2012 London Olympics and content to fly the flag of nationalism and usher in all the gold medals?

So they cheer and applaud(the politicians get their faces on podiums and rostrums like Bojo), and constituents vote them back in. And these are MPs, politicians, they have done the hard graft and gladhanding of numbers politiking and getting pre-selected then getting elected. They. Know. Where. The. Bodies. Are. Buried.

Now, when they see the tide shifting, they choose to switch sides. manifest hypocrisy.

The devil's advocate in me, actually sees the validity to support Froome, to support Wiggins, to support Brailsford, to support Bruyneel. to support Lance. Why?

Am I being hypocritical when I have potted them? Or have I just brought some Wildean drollery to some absurd imbroglio.

here is the problem, we are drilled into us, thru pedagogy and youth in the west, personal freedoms. Our autonomy, our personal property rights. When in fact, most of us have zero autonomy as Milgram demonstrated.

The entire system is predicated on suspension of disbelief. So, I may be contradicting myself here, (wrt system v personal) but, if there was this agency, you have willing sublimated your agency to believe in Lance, to believe in Nike, to believe in Sky, to believe in Froome, to believe in marginal gains, to believe in Walsh. But Walsh may be another hypocrite, or you are just too willing to believe he took down Lance and he ghosts Froome's autobiography, and Froome wrestles anacondas, and feeds them rabbits from the local kindergarten across the road.

or was it guinea pigs. heck, I aint my own New Yorker fact checking dep't am I.
 
Re: Re:

sniper said:
thehog said:
sniper said:
thehog said:
Benotti69 said:
Fully expect Freeman to claim he forgets what was in Jiffy bag and lost laptop to check his records.

Hope Freeman gets struck off, but i doubt it. Dr Bonar didn't.

But the investigation has been very weak, if at all. MPs have been the ones making ground. As usual outside forces are the ones doing the work of Anit-doping Authorities.

Sport is beyond fixing.
UKAD had little to no interest in investigating, it's only once it got to the CMS level they were forced to pretend they were doing something. You can clearly see Brailsford & co. have been running rings around UKAD for years.
Totally.

It was fascinating to see how uncomfortable Sapstead seemed to be whilst having to suggest wrongdoing by Team Sky.
That UKAD still haven't checked whether Freeman went to the police when his laptop was stolen is hilarious.
Sapstead had to invoke Interpol to make it seem like they're actually doing something.

Everything in her body language suggested a deeply rooted "We shall not step on any toes" attitude at UKAD.

UKAD need a pitbull, not a lapdog, running things.
She was. She finds a treasure trove of cortisone but decides against pursuing it because she didn't want to change the scope of the investigation. You could tell for years, she and Brailsford are chums. He only reason this got to where it did, was the non-Investgation of Bonor and handing over information to the GMC and the CMS Committee.
Indeed.
Anyone praising Sapstead is not seeing the timeline and asking the question: since when did she knew things were not above board?

Sapstead and UKAD were going to wrap this up in December and then suddenly Nicole Cooke ripped Brailsford & BC/Sky apart in that Guardian article.
To my understanding that's when Sapstead got the invite from Damian Collins and suddenly Sapstead was fighting for her job. Sapstead knew it was either her job or put BC/Sky in the spotlight and she went with the latter.
And so she had to send out the team to get serious. That generated the late night session in manchester with Freeman throwing his computer in the dumpster somewhere. :D
Anyway, this is a 6 months investigation but it still appears like they have only completed the first two weeks of it.
You are naive - UKAD needs to find bona-fide evidence to charge anyone from Sky - You can't charge people on the hearsay of a whistle-blower.
 
Re: Re:

B_Ugli said:
Irondan said:
I genuinely feel bad for the fans of Team Sky, it's too bad they all have to go through this along with the characters involved.

The good thing is that they have some great riders that are not a part of this and the season is heating up!

Sky fans have a lot to cheer for, especially when the Tour rolls around. :)
I agree on your sentiment towards the fans who have genuinely backed Team Sky.

However surely your comment about the other 'great riders' who are not involved in 2016/17 is tongue in cheek.

Sapstead didn't book end what UKAD found in terms of a timescale i.e. after 2014 and all riders not connected with Freeman are riding clean and without an 'out of competition PED regime'.

She found that that there was stockpiling of high potency Corticosteroids suggestive of it being for more than one rider.

Don't get me wrong I am all for innocent until proven guilty but this is far from the slam dunk, "pin it all on Freeman/Cope/Wiggins" the rest of us are home scot free. All of Sky and British Cycling are tarnished by this and with so many questions still unanswered, making the separation between wrongdoers and non wrongdoers is extremely premature indeed.

Such a presumption is based on wishful thinking which the history of this sport has proved is massively misguided.
What this suggests is that BC had a pile of cortico-steroids to possibly use the TUE route, which in itself, is making a mockery of the advised process behind the issuing of TUES or even worse BC are using cortico steroids willy nilly - Actually these lastest revelations cast a bigger pall over British Cycling.
 
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