Teams & Riders Team Jumbo-Visma

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Maybe Wout comes across slightly entitled with his leadership claim for the Worlds (note: I don't speak dutch so I only rely on the translation here by CN) but I don't see whats wrong or arrogant in wanting to go for Green next year at the Tour. He doesn't need a whole team for that, maybe have 1-2 guys for possible leadouts that are also helpful as Roglic helpers for controlling and then just have the freedom to also contest intermediates while still working for Roglic in the mountains.
Also, while he himself is one of the nicest guys in the peleton, Roglic fans need to get a grip about this whole "Roglic doesn't get full support from JV" narrative. He had full support in 2020 (definitely more than Pogacar) and blew it himself at the end, he had again full support in 2021 and needlessly lost the wheel of WVA in stage 3 and crashed, with Vingegaard, their later GC guy, even waiting for him. Don't give me this stage 7 myth, Jumbo (and other teams) had to try something to get Pogacar at least out to defend, if WVA doesn't go into the break the stage stays hard anyway and Carapaz still attacks later - there's no way Roglic doesn't lose significant time, there's no way he recovers from his crash.
  1. Wout appeared to be a lot more concerned about his positioning so that he could win the sprint than with bringing Primož safely through the stage.
  2. Of the entire team, only Wout kind of appeared to be looking after Roglič.
Now if that’s full support and the best TJV can do…
 
Yes mentioning van Aert and a good level support on sprint stages is not doing anybody a big favour. But for me that is not that big of a problem as long as there is a reasonable backup. If there is none then in my opinion van Aert should make the sacrifice.
 
  1. Wout appeared to be a lot more concerned about his positioning so that he could win the sprint than with bringing Primož safely through the stage.
  2. Of the entire team, only Wout kind of appeared to be looking after Roglič.
Now if that’s full support and the best TJV can do…
Gesink's DNF earlier in that fatal stage 3 was a total disaster, compounded by the disastrous decision to not rethink their strategy mid-race.

They went into one of the most dangerous final 20km's of the Tour without Gesink (who was there to protect Primoz Roglic) & with Tony Martin injured from 2 falls in 3 days (including that same stage 3).

It's still amazing to me how "brittle" the decision making process at JV can sometimes be. Wout's stage objective should have been immediately rescinded & the team should have received orders to stick together.

What happened was total B.S., i.e. Roglic losing Van Aert's wheel & getting bumped off the road by Sonny Colbrelli, everyone waiting for Roglic except Van Aert who himself chased the leading group alone (30 seconds or so up the road) after the crash which knocked out Haig had delayed him.

It was Benny Hill in those final km's: Van Aert chasing the leading group because he wanted the stage & a handful of seconds behind him the rest of his team (& Movistar!) pulling with dead Roglic.
 
@Unterlenkerfahrend

Then again you can't claim van Aert doesn't have much freedom when Roglič is riding for yellow jersey.

Now that they have Dennis they have a backup for Martin. Before they didn't have that. Unless they would use Dennis for van Aert green ambition and at the back Roglič would crash due to elbowing with sprinters. Such scenario likely wouldn't be considered as Roglič having the best possible team support. Would it?
I think Van Aert isn't saying "omg, I'm a prisoner" but rather that he held back a little bit going for green these last two years (no intermediate sprints, not going all out at the end this year because of the olympics) and that he wants to change that next year. He is not demanding a DQS style sprint train.
Regarding your possibe example of Dennis being used for WVA and Roglic crashing as a consequence - that makes no sense, sorry, I don't understand how there's any correlation.

  1. Wout appeared to be a lot more concerned about his positioning so that he could win the sprint than with bringing Primož safely through the stage.
  2. Of the entire team, only Wout kind of appeared to be looking after Roglič.
Now if that’s full support and the best TJV can do…
  1. He didn't, he did look out for him. Watch the footage, at KM13 you have a front shot of the Peleton with Wout in front of Roglic, checking over his shoulder multiple times if Roglic is there. Then in the next kilometer, Roglic needlessly loses his wheel and Wout has to slowly drop back in the group to get him back but it's already to late. He is on the right while Roglic has moved to the left side where he eventually collides with Colbrelli and crashes.
  2. You don't need an entire train to keep your GC rider safe, Ineos often uses a single rider to keep Bernal past the 3km banner. In any case, while they clearly could've prepared that better it definitely wasn't their intention. I doubt they sat in the bus before and said "Roglic ain't too important for our plans, we'll leave only Wout with him, the rest can do as they please".
What happened was total B.S., i.e. Roglic losing Van Aert's wheel & getting bumped off the road by Sonny Colbrelli, everyone waiting for Roglic except Van Aert who himself chased the leading group alone (30 seconds or so up the road) after the crash which knocked out Haig had delayed him.

It was Benny Hill in those final km's: Van Aert chasing the leading group because he wanted the stage & a handful of seconds behind him the rest of his team (& Movistar!) pulling with dead Roglic.
They wanted to keep Wout close on GC to have a 2 on 1 situation against Pogacar especially for stage 7, it wasn't that much of a crazy decision. It's an 8km technical descent to the line, how much difference would've Wout actually made if he stayed? 5 seconds?

Again, it's fine to say Jumbo made tactical mistakes these last two years but this discussion was about intent. It's not like they made these mistakes (which I don't even see really, like I said, it's been mainly Roglics own fault) because they can't be bothered to support Roglic.
 
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I think Van Aert isn't saying "omg, I'm a prisoner" but rather that he held back a little bit going for green these last two years (no intermediate sprints, not going all out at the end this year because of the olympics) and that he wants to change that next year. He is not demanding a DQS style sprint train.
Regarding your possibe example of Dennis being used for WVA and Roglic crashing as a consequence - that makes no sense, sorry, I don't understand how there's any correlation.


  1. He didn't, he did look out for him. Watch the footage, at KM13 you have a front shot of the Peleton with Wout in front of Roglic, checking over his shoulder multiple times if Roglic is there. Then in the next kilometer, Roglic needlessly loses his wheel and Wout has to slowly drop back in the group to get him back but it's already to late. He is on the right while Roglic has moved to the left side where he eventually collides with Colbrelli and crashes.
  2. You don't need an entire train to keep your GC rider safe, Ineos often uses a single rider to keep Bernal past the 3km banner. In any case, while they clearly could've prepared that better it definitely wasn't their intention. I doubt they sat in the bus before and said "Roglic ain't too important for our plans, we'll leave only Wout with him, the rest can do as they please".
They wanted to keep Wout close on GC to have a 2 on 1 situation against Pogacar especially for stage 7, it wasn't that much of a crazy decision. It's an 8km technical descent to the line, how much difference would've Wout actually made if he stayed? 5 seconds?

Again, it's fine to say Jumbo made tactical mistakes these last two years but this discussion was about intent. It's not like they made these mistakes (which I don't even see really, like I said, it's been mainly Roglics own fault) because they can't be bothered to support Roglic.
Wout was changing sides very frequently in those final kilometers, Roglic was obviously not his main concern. Yes, he did check for him after each side switch, but those side switches were made not to better protect Roglic but to have better position for stage win. So here is your example of how racing for green or stage win can affect the GC ambitions of a team.

And intent doesn’t really matter when you fail to deliver result. If anything - if they intended to give him full support but failed to be successful (through either team or Roglic fault) then intending to give him less support should logically bring even worse outcome.

So what you talked about in your earlier post - about Roglic fans complaining he doesn’t get full support. We are not complaining about intent (yet) but about outcome. It doesn’t do much good if TJV intended to support Roglic by protecting him in one of the most nervous stage in the Tour if they ended up not protecting him and managing to provide one guy part-time.
 
Wout was changing sides very frequently in those final kilometers, Roglic was obviously not his main concern. Yes, he did check for him after each side switch, but those side switches were made not to better protect Roglic but to have better position for stage win. So here is your example of how racing for green or stage win can affect the GC ambitions of a team.

And intent doesn’t really matter when you fail to deliver result. If anything - if they intended to give him full support but failed to be successful (through either team or Roglic fault) then intending to give him less support should logically bring even worse outcome.

So what you talked about in your earlier post - about Roglic fans complaining he doesn’t get full support. We are not complaining about intent (yet) but about outcome. It doesn’t do much good if TJV intended to support Roglic by protecting him in one of the most nervous stage in the Tour if they ended up not protecting him and managing to provide one guy part-time.
You're just making things up now, he didn't change sides very frequently to get in a better position. I even checked the footage again, he's in the wind next to DQS at 15k out, 14k out, 13k out - what sprinter who's in it only for his own does that? Roglic loses his wheel and crashes with 10k to go, not 1k to go. Thats a point where there's no need for Wout to think about any sort of positioning in the sprint apart from just being at the front to keep Roglic safe.

I just don't see the apparent big failure of JV to work for Roglic, they've fully done so for these last few years and while there've been a couple of mistakes along the way (PN this year in the last stage was a major error in communication), he has mostly just failed himself. No need to hate him for that but its weird to point the fingers at Jumbo.
 
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You're just making things up now, he didn't change sides very frequently to get in a better position. I even checked the footage again, he's in the wind next to DQS at 15k out, 14k out, 13k out - what sprinter who's in it only for his own does that? Roglic loses his wheel and crashes with 10k to go, not 1k to go. Thats a point where there's no need for Wout to think about any sort of positioning in the sprint apart from just being at the front to keep Roglic safe.

I just don't see the apparent big failure of JV to work for Roglic, they've fully done so for these last few years and while there've been a couple of mistakes along the way (PN this year in the last stage was a major error in communication), he has mostly just failed himself. No need to hate him for that but its weird to point the fingers at Jumbo.
Well it’s not just my opinion - it’s shared by many on this board and if you can spare a couple of minutes a day, I recommend you watch Chris Horners Youtube channel. He frequently criticises Jumbo for bad tactics. More often than not, I come to similar conclusions watching the race to what he later points out in his analyses…

Anyway, here’s his take on stage 3:
View: https://youtu.be/k5bWsJZ1oJo


So while you may not agree with these opinions of Jumbo making bad tactical decisions I don’t think you can call these opinions weird when so many people share them…
 
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Roglič and Jumbo have to drop Eiking and Martin, keep an eye on Mas and Lopez and also be wary of Ineos. They can’t gamble and wait for the final time trial. If Roglič is feeling good and is in a position to attack on one or both stages, he should do that. Here’s hoping he keep himself on the bike and doesn’t have any mechanicals that would will put him in trouble.
 
Well it’s not just my opinion - it’s shared by many on this board and if you can spare a couple of minutes a day, I recommend you watch Chris Horners Youtube channel. He frequently criticises Jumbo for bad tactics. More often than not, I come to similar conclusions watching the race to what he later points out in his analyses…

Anyway, here’s his take on stage 3:
View: https://youtu.be/k5bWsJZ1oJo


So while you may not agree with these opinions of Jumbo making bad tactical decisions I don’t think you can call these opinions weird when so many people share them…
I know Chris Horners Youtube, he's decent but all too often choses drama takes that generate more clicks (his famous knuckleheads stuff), fair enough for him, media works that way, but that doesn't make his analysis straight accurate.
Like you, he doesn't give any proof on how WVA was going for the sprint all by himself 10km out while not caring about Roglic, the only image he uses is the overhead shot when they already were seperated. I've given you detailed time stamps that he was actually looking out for him but heyho, let's just say he ignored Roglic because he wanted that sprint.

That's my point, yes Jumbo make frequent mistakes and there's no problem pointing them out. But Roglic lost both Tours due to his own faults not because of Jumbo priorities so to go into blame game mode because arguably their biggest name after Roglic on the team wants to go for Green is a bit early.
 
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I know Chris Horners Youtube, he's decent but all too often choses drama takes that generate more clicks (his famous knuckleheads stuff), fair enough for him, media works that way, but that doesn't make his analysis straight accurate.
Like you, he doesn't give any proof on how WVA was going for the sprint all by himself 10km out while not caring about Roglic, the only image he uses is the overhead shot when they already were seperated. I've given you detailed time stamps that he was actually looking out for him but heyho, let's just say he ignored Roglic because he wanted that sprint.

That's my point, yes Jumbo make frequent mistakes and there's no problem pointing them out. But Roglic lost both Tours due to his own faults not because of Jumbo priorities so to go into blame game mode because arguably their biggest name after Roglic on the team wants to go for Green is a bit early.
All I know is that as I watched the third stage I was asking myself before the crash why is Wout moving left and right so much. I'm not going to go looking for timestamps, I trust myself enough to know that that's the way I saw it...

But for the bolded part: This is Jumbo Visma thread so we are primarily discussing the team in this thread. That's why in this thread we are pointing out team Jumbo Vismas mistakes. Mistakes of Primož Roglič are pointed out in his thread. For instance - this week he was criticised for the "no risk no glory" approach and I'm sure he was criticised in stage 3 for not being good in fighting for position in peloton. So unless the conclusion is that team Jumbo Visma always does everything right and all their failings are completely Roglic's fault I don't see anything wrong in pointing out their mistakes. Pointing out their mistakes is not neccessarily motivated by trying to defend Roglic.

And finally - a question for you: Do you believe that Jumbo Visma protected Roglič sufficiently in stage 3?
 
All I know is that as I watched the third stage I was asking myself before the crash why is Wout moving left and right so much. I'm not going to go looking for timestamps, I trust myself enough to know that that's the way I saw it...
Well, however you reached that conclusion it is not supported by the actual coverage. Wout stays at the front, a lot in the wind, there is no unusual movement that would indicate that he is (again, 15k out!) already looking for his own sprint.

But for the bolded part: This is Jumbo Visma thread so we are primarily discussing the team in this thread. That's why in this thread we are pointing out team Jumbo Vismas mistakes. Mistakes of Primož Roglič are pointed out in his thread. For instance - this week he was criticised for the "no risk no glory" approach and I'm sure he was criticised in stage 3 for not being good in fighting for position in peloton. So unless the conclusion is that team Jumbo Visma always does everything right and all their failings are completely Roglic's fault I don't see anything wrong in pointing out their mistakes. Pointing out their mistakes is not neccessarily motivated by trying to defend Roglic.
This discussion started with a Wout interview where he states he wants to go for green additionally to working for Roglic next Tour. People drew conclusions from that statement to = Jumbo don't support Primoz enough and we had a lot of revisionism of stage 3 and 7 - which I pointed out is rubbish. Feel free to criticize them tactically in e.g. Paris Nice this year where I think they were shocking on the last stage.

And finally - a question for you: Do you believe that Jumbo Visma protected Roglič sufficiently in stage 3?
Yes, I think only having WVA was just fine. Pogacar e.g. had no one and just freewheeled around, keeping himself out of trouble.
 
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Well, however you reached that conclusion it is not supported by the actual coverage. Wout stays at the front, a lot in the wind, there is no unusual movement that would indicate that he is (again, 15k out!) already looking for his own sprint.


This discussion started with a Wout interview where he states he wants to go for green additionally to working for Roglic next Tour. People drew conclusions from that statement to = Jumbo don't support Primoz enough and we had a lot of revisionism of stage 3 and 7 - which I pointed out is rubbish. Feel free to criticize them tactically in e.g. Paris Nice this year where I think they were shocking on the last stage.


Yes, I think only having WVA was just fine. Pogacar e.g. had no one and just freewheeled around, keeping himself out of trouble.
Apparently not given what happened. I mean maybe Primož is worse than Pogačar (who by the way had his own moment in that same stage though with far less severe consequences) in positioning. Actually, I'm pretty sure that's the way it is. In this case, it may not be enough to put just Wout infront of Primož. Maybe he needs 2 or even 3 guys to protect him when things get tough in the peloton. That's something Jumbo Visma should be aware of and instead of putting only Wout they should put - well, not just Wout. They didn't have enough guys? Well if one of them is going for green next year, I'm sure things will be better then...
 
I think Van Aert isn't saying "omg, I'm a prisoner" but rather that he held back a little bit going for green these last two years (no intermediate sprints, not going all out at the end this year because of the olympics) and that he wants to change that next year. He is not demanding a DQS style sprint train.
I agree that van Aert is not a prisoner at JV. As for being held back i don't know about that. Was there ever really an ambition to go for green? At TDF 2020 i seen it more as going after the stages. At TDF 2021 i have seen it more as using TDF to prepare for Olympics. I never got the impression van Aert wanted to target the green so far. This is new to me. Now as he does want to target the green we obviously must say a word or two about that. As targeting green at TDF usually does mean you need some level of team support to achieve this goal.

Regarding your possibe example of Dennis being used for WVA and Roglic crashing as a consequence - that makes no sense, sorry, I don't understand how there's any correlation.
Sure you do.
 
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