Teams & Riders Team Visma - Lease a Bike

[Red Rick]

While the Jumbo team is very successful, I don't think it's accurate to depict them as unprecedentedly dominant.

The classics division was hardly dominant in E3 or Sanremo when they were up against great opposition. They are not favoured to win Ronde either. The team hasn't won a monument or WCRR/OGRR since 2020 (and bridging across to Ala on the descent of Poggio and then beating him in the sprint is not a dominant victory, nor obviously the way Rogla won Liège). They won the Tour in a dominant fashion last year, but the battle between Vingegaard and Pogi was not similar to how Sky/Ineos suffocated the GC in 2016/2017/2018. Besides last year, they have "only" won the Vuelta, and only twice dominantly.

I also didn't come away from P-N, T-A, and Catalunya with the impression that the team was unbeatable in any of those races.

Jumbo winning the first 5 Belgian classics is just the collective failure of all the other teams.

 

[Netserk]

Jumbo winning the first 5 Belgian classics is just the collective failure of all the other teams.

No, they have indeed been great. My point was that only 1 of those was against either Pogi or MvdP, and E3 was not a dominant win. Far from it. They dominate the sub-elite, not the very best.

They have been so dominant on the cobbles that they aren't even the favourites to win the biggest cobbled races. And just how dominant do you think the team was in Sanremo?

 

[Red Rick]

No, they have indeed been great. My point was that only 1 of those was against either Pogi or MvdP, and E3 was not a dominant win. Far from it. They dominate the sub-elite, not the very best.

They have been so dominant on the cobbles that they aren't even the favourites to win the biggest cobbled races. And just how dominant do you think the team was in Sanremo?

Jumbo was average in Sanremo. They were also average in Catalunya and Paris Nice.

I think right now they definitely have more depth in their cobbled squad than their climbing squad, but they have made more young signings for the future in the climbing department.

The biggest crunch for Jumbo IMO is Vingegaards contract being only through 2024.

 

[theyoungest]

No, they have indeed been great. My point was that only 1 of those was against either Pogi or MvdP, and E3 was not a dominant win. Far from it. They dominate the sub-elite, not the very best.

They have been so dominant on the cobbles that they aren't even the favourites to win the biggest cobbled races. And just how dominant do you think the team was in Sanremo?

Don't you dare infuse this thread with some nuance. Jumbo are the love child of Gewiss, US Postal, and Sky, and I won't hear differently.

No, but you're right, I've been trying to get to hear some argumentation why this team is so utterly dominant that you have to hate them, and I haven't really read anything of substance. But the weird thing is, a few posters are giddy with anticipation for when Jumbo inevitably won't win on Sunday. So apparently the 'haters' don't really think they're all that dominant either.

Jumbo was average in Sanremo. They were also average in Catalunya and Paris Nice.

I think right now they definitely have more depth in their cobbled squad than their climbing squad, but they have made more young signings for the future in the climbing department.

The biggest crunch for Jumbo IMO is Vingegaards contract being only through 2024.

Their sponsor situation puts them in limbo a bit, I think. If they attract a big international sponsor, keeping guys like Vingegaard and Van Aert will be essential. If they go Dutch, losing Olav Kooij will be a bigger blow, the only real Dutch talent they have on board right now.

 

[Red Rick]

Don't you dare infuse this thread with some nuance. Jumbo are the love child of Gewiss, US Postal, and Sky, and I won't hear differently.

No, but you're right, I've been trying to get to hear some argumentation why this team is so utterly dominant that you have to hate them, and I haven't really read anything of substance. But the weird thing is, a few posters are giddy with anticipation for when Jumbo inevitably won't win on Sunday. So apparently the 'haters' don't really think they're all that dominant either.


Their sponsor situation puts them in limbo a bit, I think. If they attract a big international sponsor, keeping guys like Vingegaard and Van Aert will be essential. If they go Dutch, losing Olav Kooij will be a bigger blow, the only real Dutch talent they have on board right now.

Kooij is a good rider but I very much doubt he'll ever be the domestic flag ship of the team. He's not that level IMO.

Domestically it's pretty hard. The big star is Van der Poel and there is noone else.

 

[theyoungest]

Kooij is a good rider but I very much doubt he'll ever be the domestic flag ship of the team. He's not that level IMO.

Domestically it's pretty hard. The big star is Van der Poel and there is noone else.

I think Kooij is quite underrated, even by his own team. I actually expect him to leave, it would make sense for him to do so. And then they're left with zero Dutch talents. That's what I mean, not that he's the new Van der Poel or whatever.

 

[Red Rick]

I think Kooij is quite underrated, even by his own team. I actually expect him to leave, it would make sense for him to do so. And then they're left with zero Dutch talents. That's what I mean, not that he's the new Van der Poel or whatever.

How is Kooij underrated? He's a Freire type rider in an era where Freire himself wouldn't win ***. There are no Dutch super talents. Making that top priority is a very bad move unless you wanna go back to the 2015 meme era of the team.

Wielerflits will always *** and moan about the "foreign legion" but it's just how it is.

 

[theyoungest]

How is Kooij underrated? He's a Freire type rider in an era where Freire himself wouldn't win ***. There are no Dutch super talents. Making that top priority is a very bad move unless you wanna go back to the 2015 meme era of the team.

Wielerflits will always *** and moan about the "foreign legion" but it's just how it is.

Once again, he's no Van der Poel, but given how he rode the last few races, with a bit more luck he could have been on the podium of Gent-Wevelgem for instance, a great result for a 21-year-old no matter how you look at it. But he won't even get to ride a GT this year (probably).

I personally don't care whether the riders are all 'foreigners', but from a sponsor standpoint, what makes this team interesting for a Dutch sponsor of the size of Jumbo to step in? I don't really see it, unless they're focused on the European rather than the domestic market.

 

[pablohidalgo7]

How is Kooij underrated? He's a Freire type rider in an era where Freire himself wouldn't win ***. There are no Dutch super talents. Making that top priority is a very bad move unless you wanna go back to the 2015 meme era of the team.

Wielerflits will always *** and moan about the "foreign legion" but it's just how it is.

Freire much more versatile in a "era" where the riders were more tagged in categories than now (sprinter/climber/time triallist, classic rider, etc.) and that despite the fact that he was not a good professional, a bit lazy and clearly a conformist rider, but the important factor were the injuries. Oscarito healthy was something else, in Mapei season 2000 for example, also in 2004 and the beginning of 2005, his climbing prowess in 2004 Worlds and Mur de Huy 2005 was a bit crazy for any kind of sprinter. After that he had so many injuries and came back healthy but as a different rider, much more focus on his "endurance-sprinter ability who can handle long distances and some medium mountain and hilly stages with moderate difficulty" type of rider.

I see Kooij like a 2021 Jasper Philippsen right now, but maybe with more potential.

 

[Sciatic]

Olav Kooij is a former speedskater.

That’s cool, thanks!

 

[QueenStagiaire]

That’s cool, thanks!

Yes, but did you know Roglič used to be a ski jumper?

 

[Samu Cuenca]

Unlike Roglič, Carlijn Achtereekte actualy manged to be quite successful before making the jump to cycling, but it remains to be seen how much she can achieve in her second career.

 

[theyoungest]

Unlike Roglič, Carlijn Achtereekte actualy manged to be quite successful before making the jump to cycling, but it remains to be seen how much she can achieve in her second career.

Yes, she's an actual Olympic champion... although it has to be said that this win was a bit of a fluke and her engine isn't nearly as big as, say, Irene Schouten's. I'd be surprised if she's more than a domestique on the road.

 

[Sciatic]

Yes, but did you know Roglič used to be a ski jumper?

Ha, and Remco a footballer

 

[RedheadDane]

Unlike Roglič, Carlijn Achtereekte actualy manged to be quite successful before making the jump to cycling, but it remains to be seen how much she can achieve in her second career.

So successful, in fact, that she's identified as a speed skater on Wikipedia:

Carlijn Achtereekte - Wikipedia

Also, imagine being called "Behind" in any kind of racing-based sport...

 

[Netserk]

Not very dominant today. But go on and tell me how they were better on the cobbles than peak QS.

 

[Red Rick]

Not very dominant today. But go on and tell me how they were better on the cobbles than peak QS.

Very different times.

 

[Valv.Piti]

They arent, but they are missing Van Baarle to be fair and its not like QS didn't get spanked at times by riders like Cancellara and Sagan.

Also, I think Pogacar and Mathieu is on such an insanely high level that basically any rider in history would lose mano-a-mano. Only UAE DS tried to lose the race on purpose, got lucky and was bailed out by a generational talent. UAE as a team had no business winning.

Funnily enough, Bjerg said in an interview that well, I can't follow you on Kwaremont so let me just pull in the bottom. Bjerg himself thought that.

HE WASN'T TOLD TO DO THAT. Nobody on UAE was actually actively told to decrease the gap. Thats the difference on dropping Mads on Kwaremont/losing to Mads in the sprint cause of those extra 30 seconds.

They drove a car with bikes on top of it and handed out water bottles, nothing more, nothing less. And well, the same can be said about Jumbo which where in total shambles, but they were just overmatched in the end. But that doesn't mean the way they raced the race was any less stupid than UAE.

And dont get me started on MVDP getting dropped early and those guys just sitting in the peloton for fun. Absolutely braindead.

 

[Netserk]

Very different times.

So? It'd be like complaining about Sky domination and then to see them get spanked in the biggest race. It would silence all noise about unparalleled dominance. As it should here.

When QS dominated the Flemish classics in 2018, they did so against the best opposition as well. Compare and contrast E3 that year and this year.

 

[Red Rick]

So? It'd be like complaining about Sky domination and then to see them get spanked in the biggest race. It would silence all noise about unparalleled dominance. As it should here.

When QS dominated the Flemish classics in 2018, they did so against the best opposition as well. Compare and contrast E3 that year and this year.

Who was even the best opposition in 2018?

 

[Netserk]

Who was even the best opposition in 2018?

Greg and Sagan, even if the latter tanked in E3 (on Eikenberg iirc).

Domination is relative, and when Jumbo doesn't have any of the two strongest on the hellingen, they are evidently not as dominant as QS was.

 

[Red Rick]

Greg and Sagan, even if the latter tanked in E3 (on Eikenberg if iirc).

Do you think they would have dominated Pogacar and MvdP today?

 

[theyoungest]

Not very dominant today. But go on and tell me how they were better on the cobbles than peak QS.

Peak QS wouldn't have done much here either, I think. This is almost a climbers race now. Next year Jumbo will bring Sepp Kuss

They arent, but they are missing Van Baarle to be fair and its not like QS didn't get spanked at times by riders like Cancellara and Sagan.

Also, I think Pogacar and Mathieu is on such an insanely high level that basically any rider in history would lose mano-a-mano. Only UAE DS tried to lose the race on purpose, got lucky and was bailed out by a generational talent. UAE as a team had no business winning.

Funnily enough, Bjerg said in an interview that well, I can't follow you on Kwaremont so let me just pull in the bottom. Bjerg himself thought that.

HE WASN'T TOLD TO DO THAT. Nobody on UAE was actually actively told to decrease the gap. Thats the difference on dropping Mads on Kwaremont/losing to Mads in the sprint cause of those extra 30 seconds.

They drove a car with bikes on top of it and handed out water bottles, nothing more, nothing less. And well, the same can be said about Jumbo which where in total shambles, but they were just overmatched in the end. But that doesn't mean the way they raced the race was any less stupid than UAE.

And dont get me started on MVDP getting dropped early and those guys just sitting in the peloton for fun. Absolutely braindead.

Your analysis is basically: everybody's dumb, including the winning team. You sound like Chris Horner.

 

[Big Doopie]

mistake sending laporte up to pog in order to tire VdP.

instead they should have left pog dangling out there on his own for much longer.

VdP totally plays games inside WvA's head.

 

[theyoungest]

mistake sending laporte up to pog in order to tire VdP.

instead they should have left pog dangling out there on his own for much longer.

VdP totally plays games inside WvA's head.

Sending? Maybe it was his own decision. Who knows, riders might have a brain of their own.

Also, that wasn't decisive at all. Laporte took about two pulls.