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I could see some plausibility with Vingegaard that he started doping top level juice late tbh. I still think Van Aert is a way bigger outlier.

They looked more ridiculous just post lockdown when they were probably the first big team to be fully on whatever is making the peloton go so damn fast.

The most ridiculous case of "extra watts" is still Ineos in the 2020 Giro for me.
 
I could see some plausibility with Vingegaard that he started doping top level juice late tbh. I still think Van Aert is a way bigger outlier.

They looked more ridiculous just post lockdown when they were probably the first big team to be fully on whatever is making the peloton go so damn fast.

The most ridiculous case of "extra watts" is still Ineos in the 2020 Giro for me.
Sunweb was pretty sick too.
 
There is a huge jump between being the 3rd last rider in the train on Angliru and consistantly battling 2 very recent GT winners in the mountains 8 months later.
Mas, Quintana and Carapaz all showed good promise in their first Vueltas without being totally outrageous for three weeks straight, before they went on to fight for podiums and wins in GTs the next year. Of course not many riders will improve so rapidly, but it's not unheard of. Doping is obviously/probably a part of it, but the talent still needs to be there.

Vingegaard was also a bit unlucky with crashes that kept him from getting better results as a U23 rider. He also had a crash in the Tour of Norway in 2019 and was injured during the first part of 2020 as well.
 
Mas, Quintana and Carapaz all showed good promise in their first Vueltas without being totally outrageous for three weeks straight, before they went on to fight for podiums and wins in GTs the next year. Of course not many riders will improve so rapidly, but it's not unheard of. Doping is obviously/probably a part of it, but the talent still needs to be there.

Vingegaard was also a bit unlucky with crashes that kept him from getting better results as a U23 rider. He also had a crash in the Tour of Norway in 2019 and was injured during the first part of 2020 as well.

I am not going to be drawn into comparing the merits of each first Vuelta ride for these guys, but just in terms if communication from the respective teams, IIRC all 3 others were considered big future hopes, while pre-2021 season the talk of Vingegaard playing a big role in GTs was rather muted.

I could be misremembering things, but the original plan was for Kruijswijk and Kuss to be the main Vuelta guys.
 
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sorry dawg but you've lost this argument. Vingegaard had all the hallmarks of a super talent if you were paying attention. Jumbo plucked him off of a Danish conti team while the guy was still packing fish to make a living, it's not outlandish in any way that he'd progress from doing that sick ride in Itzulia in 2019 (there's no way that if Jumbo has an internal doping program, they'd give it to a 22 year old in his 2nd WT race) and the ride in Poland to what he's doing in the Tour. that he finished 6th or 26th or 90th in the GC of that race means basically nothing, riders progress isn't always linear and usually they are inconsistent early on in their careers.
Leave Britney Vingegaard alone.

Maybe you can try to reformulate whatever point you are trying to make with less circular reasoning?

And maybe his own team should have also been paying attention and gave him more chances to lead races if he was an actual super talent?
 
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I am not going to be drawn into comparing the merits of each first Vuelta ride for these guys, but just in terms if communication from the respective teams, IIRC all 3 others were considered big future hopes, while pre-2021 season the talk of Vingegaard playing a big role in GTs was rather muted.

I could be misremembering things, but the original plan was for Kruijswijk and Kuss to be the main Vuelta guys.
Sure, he was never going to be second in line at the Vuelta with it being his first GT, but instead have a role like Kuss had in 2018.
I was expecting him to reach a very high level at some point if he had the required luck, but I never thought it would happen so soon and neither did the team apparently. Actually the results he got before the Tour were better than what I had expected for this year, given that he didn't improve more during last season.

So while it's definitely a surprise to me that he's now second in the Tour, just like it was with Quintana back in the day, it's not as surprising that he was potentially able to reach it during his career, if everything were to fall into place. His injuries in 2017 and '18 meant he never got a chance to ride for GC in the Tour l'Avenir. I obviously don't know how well he could have done there, but if he had finished in the top 5 or even better in 2018 where Pogacar won, I'm sure a lot more people would have had him on their radar.
 
I could see some plausibility with Vingegaard that he started doping top level juice late tbh. I still think Van Aert is a way bigger outlier.

They looked more ridiculous just post lockdown when they were probably the first big team to be fully on whatever is making the peloton go so damn fast.

The most ridiculous case of "extra watts" is still Ineos in the 2020 Giro for me.
And hindley.
 
It's a team with freaks like van Aert and Dumoulin, true.

There is a huge jump between being the 3rd last rider in the train on Angliru
Distorting. Was on the front until seven guys were left, then after someone attacked he waited for Bennett and dragged him to the top. That was the first race he did with actual mountains. UAE Tour this year where he won one a stage was the second, third Dauphine where he had an injury but was second after Mark Padun on the last stage.

How could that even have gone much better? There's results in shorter stage races too like that second place in Pais Vasco and even in races with easy routes. He was designated leader in Coppi e Bartali also.
 
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It's a team with freaks like van Aert and Dumoulin, true.


Distorting. Was on the front until seven guys were left, then after someone attacked he waited for Bennett and dragged him to the top. That was the first race he did with actual mountains. UAE Tour this year where he won one a stage was the second, third Dauphine where he had an injury but was second after Mark Padun on the last stage.

How could that even have gone much better? There's results in shorter stage races too like that second place in Pais Vasco and even in races with easy routes. He was designated leader in Coppi e Bartali also.

He did Andalucia and Romandie in 2019.

But meh, I don't really care if I was able to change your mind or not.
 
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58 kg smashing TTs at both ends of a grand tour dropping alien Pog on Ventoux and generally being second best in freaking Tour de France is a stratospheric jump from being great one stage here and there, sometime somewhere. The Covid generation, Jai Hindley kind of, after lockdown jumped straight into contesting Grand Tours with exceptional performances throughout all of the three weeks.
 
58 kg smashing TTs at both ends of a grand tour dropping alien Pog on Ventoux and generally being second best in freaking Tour de France is a stratospheric jump from being great one stage here and there, sometime somewhere. The Covid generation, Jai Hindley kind of, after lockdown jumped straight into contesting Grand Tours with exceptional performances throughout all of the three weeks.
He stopped eating twinkies
 

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