Team Jumbo-Visma

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I have been a Pantani fan forever, but that's simply because I was a child when he broke through, I didn't understand what was really happening, He was cool with his pirate's outfit, he was different, despite his strength he was always kind of an underdog, there was something bold, yet melancholic about him. He still feels like a legend to me. But objectively he was simply a case of super dope without limits. No excuse whatsoever.
 
Lol all you like. This is from your post I commented on, quoted verbatim: Everyone was taking EPO then so there was no such thing as “EPO profiteers”.

Nice contrast between the later and the earlier posts.
What has EPO profiteer got to do with “relatively clean”?

My line of reason is consistent. The only relevance of your post is that Pantani’s records cannot be compared to todays times. Is this what you consider an EPO profiteer? To me this means a rider who wins because others are not using the same methods.

Here we are discussing Jumbo and specifically Vingegaard’s sudden rise from obscurity in 2021 after a relatively mediocre career prior to that Tour. I see no relevance to Pantani whatsoever. A straw man.
 
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Nonsense. Did you check?
As an amateur, Pantani won the 1992 Girobio, the amateur version of the Giro d'Italia, after finishing third in 1990 and second in 1991. There is much more. Unlike Vingo at a similar age.
Unfortunately we'll never know how Vingegaard wold have done in amateur races like that, in his early twenties, as he had already turned pro by then.

In Pantanis first season as a pro, he set the cycling world ablaze with a 5th place in Giro del Trentino. Then the year after that he gradually, naturally progressed into the greatest climber ever. Is that what you're arguing?
 
this is not a discussion about cycling, or even doping..this is about chauvinism and country pride.. if Jonas were born in Turin a different set of people would be defending him here.....see similar discussions about Pog/Rog/Froome/Thomas/Contador/Lance etc..somehow we humans have a blind spot and think some guy is 'different', more genuine, believable, just because he speaks our same mother tongue and happened to be born in the same arbitrary geographical division than us...next year when some middle of the pack colombian/spaniard/portuguese/german suddenly becomes a monster see the cycle repeats itself
 
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this is not a discussion about cycling, or even doping..this is about chauvinism and country pride.. if Jonas were born in Turin a different set of people would be defending him here.....see similar discussions about Pog/Rog/Froome/Thomas/Contador/Lance etc..somehow we humans have a blind spot and think some guy is 'different', more genuine, believable, just because he speaks our same mother tongue and happened to be born in the same arbitrary geographical division than us...next year when some middle of the pack colombian/spaniard/portuguese/german suddenly becomes a monster see the cycle repeats itself
That's also an easy way to whitewash any criticism. Sure, there's a lot of chauvinism around but implying that's the only reason behind pointing at Jumbo or Vingo is simply not correct.
 
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this is not a discussion about cycling, or even doping..this is about chauvinism and country pride.. if Jonas were born in Turin a different set of people would be defending him here.....see similar discussions about Pog/Rog/Froome/Thomas/Contador/Lance etc..somehow we humans have a blind spot and think some guy is 'different', more genuine, believable, just because he speaks our same mother tongue and happened to be born in the same arbitrary geographical division than us...next year when some middle of the pack colombian/spaniard/portuguese/german suddenly becomes a monster see the cycle repeats itself
Even though I'm a Dane, I certainly don't see him as more believable than anyone, but I do think he's as believable as a lot of other riders.
 
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Even though I'm a Dane, I certainly don't see him as more believable than anyone, but I do think he's as believable as a lot of other riders.
Well he is less believable than Pog IMO. Simply based upon what Vingo had achieved prior to 2021 TdF compared to what Pog had done prior to 2020 TdF. A massive and stark difference in results. Not all doping is done as well. Well resourced teams have an advantage. JV got caught out in 2020.

On the eve of the 2021 TdF, Vingo wasn't on any polls of possible contenders when he was elevated to replace Roglic. Then he momentarily drops Pog on Ventoux and people start to notice him. Then for 2022 it seems like Rasmussen 2007 all over again. Except JV won't yank him from the race.
 
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Well he is less believable than Pog IMO. Simply based upon what Vingo had achieved prior to 2021 TdF compared to what Pog had done prior to 2020 TdF. A massive and stark difference in results. Not all doping is done as well. Well resourced teams have an advantage. JV got caught out in 2020.

On the eve of the 2021 TdF, Vingo wasn't on any polls of possible contenders when he was elevated to replace Roglic. Then he momentarily drops Pog on Ventoux and people start to notice him. Then for 2022 it seems like Rasmussen 2007 all over again. Except JV won't yank him from the race.
No he wasn't a favourite for last year's Tour, but his team also had an undisputed leader going into the race. Top 10 or possibly top 5 would have been my prediction, if he had been the leader prior to the race, based on how he performed in Itzulia, but I never thought he would be the only one capable of putting pressure on Pogačar.

I don't think many people saw Pogačar as a favourite for a podium spot in the 2019 Vuelta either, but both of them ended up getting them anyway. And like he him, Vingegaard has also improved a lot both physically and mentally between his first and second GT as a leader. So did Andy Schleck, but there were two years between those compared to roughly a year for Vingegaard and Pogačar.
 
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No he wasn't a favourite for last year's Tour, but his team also had an undisputed leader going into the race. Top 10 or possibly top 5 would have been my prediction, if he had been the leader prior to the race, based on how he performed in Itzulia, but I never thought he would be the only one capable of putting pressure on Pogačar.

I don't think many people saw Pogačar as a favourite for a podium spot in the 2019 Vuelta either, but both of them ended up getting them anyway. And like he him, Vingegaard has also improved a lot both physically and mentally between his first and second GT as a leader. So did Andy Schleck, but there were two years between those compared to roughly a year for Vingegaard and Pogačar.
You cannot compare pre 2020 TdF Pogacar with pre 2021 TdF Vingo. One had a solid palmares including ToC, that Vuelta podium you mention but many other top results stringing back to his time as an 18 year old. By contrast 2021 TdF Vingo showed nothing which gave any clue despite being nearly two years older. From an impartial observer’s point of view it’s about as obvious as it can get. So please excuse me for not believing.
 
With Vingegaard a smoking gun exists in the form of his 'right place, right time' convenience for Jumbo.

Yes, a very convenient sudden rise as the best climber in the world & all round rouleur just when Jumbo Visma wanted to beat Pogacar at the TdF & avenge 2020.

We're talking about a supposed 'generational talent' here, i.e. these riders don't grow on trees nor should they theoretically be 'created' by the same top teams. Vingegaard is just way too convenient coming from a team which openly declared they couldn't beat Pogacar unless they had two riders to attack him.

Roglic wasn't enough (or strong enough), so voilà, out of the magic hat came Vingegaard. It would be more believable if this small pool of mega talents capable of putting in Armstrong style watts emerged in various teams like Trek, EF, Lotto (Soudal) etc. instead of asking that we accept the happy convenience Jumbo's training is apparently capable of producing riders who can unlock god watts potential. If the story of his rise is because Jumbo's training is that good, their performance experts should be the gold standard for all sports & everyone should copy them. It's a miraculous transformation. Whereas if they want us to believe Vingegaard is a rare talent they just happened to have in their ranks... yeah, no.

Either way, the BS is strong in this one. I also think all this cloak & dagger secret sauce stuff plays into team dynamics & decisions they make as well (i.e. like Rogla's departure from the Tour). We'll see how it plays out but in my opinion unless Vingegaard crashes or panics or has some insane bad luck, he's not going to get dropped by Pogacar & Jumbo knows exactly why. Hence they could send Roglic home.

The debate surrounding Roglic's exit is based on the assumption there's a "glorious uncertainty of sport" (as the French say) & Jumbo could regret that decision on the road. Well in this instance I reckon they know exactly what's fuelling their yellow jersey all the way to Paris & there's zero uncertainty about it.
 
You cannot compare pre 2020 TdF Pogacar with pre 2021 TdF Vingo. One had a solid palmares including ToC, that Vuelta podium you mention but many other top results stringing back to his time as an 18 year old. By contrast 2021 TdF Vingo showed nothing which gave any clue despite being nearly two years older. From an impartial observer’s point of view it’s about as obvious as it can get. So please excuse me for not believing.
So let me get this clear, there is a debate about who is more ridiculous?
 
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Roglic wasn't enough (or strong enough), so voilà, out of the magic hat came Vingegaard. It would be more believable if this small pool of mega talents capable of putting in Armstrong style watts emerged in various teams like Trek, EF, Lotto (Soudal) etc. instead of asking that we accept the happy convenience Jumbo's training is apparently capable of producing riders who can unlock god watts potential. If the story of his rise is because Jumbo's training is that good, their performance experts should be the gold standard for all sports & everyone should copy them. It's a miraculous transformation. Whereas if they want us to believe Vingegaard is a rare talent they just happened to have in their ranks... yeah, no.
Tbf, and I made that argument before, you also just don't pick a random rider and make him great (as fans already claimed with Froome and Sky). Because teams then would never risk the "noise" coming with such an approach. Just pick Wiggins and Roglic and make them multiple TdF winners and you have much less headwind then with Froome and Vingegaard. The later's "talent" might very well be that they are better responders to whatever offered by the team, be it grey area stuff or direct doping. "Happy little accidents." Because at no point I think the teams were saying "hey, we have a guy that finished 85th/51st - Froome's and Vingegaards last results before their breakthrough GTs - in a week long stage race, lets try to make them the best GC rider in the world"...
 
Tbf, and I made that argument before, you also just don't pick a random rider and make him great (as fans already claimed with Froome and Sky). Because teams then would never risk the "noise" coming with such an approach. Just pick Wiggins and Roglic and make them multiple TdF winners and you have much less headwind then with Froome and Vingegaard. The later's "talent" might very well be that they are better responders to whatever offered by the team, be it grey area stuff or direct doping. "Happy little accidents." Because at no point I think the teams were saying "hey, we have a guy that finished 85th/51st - Froome's and Vingegaards last results before their breakthrough GTs - in a week long stage race, lets try to make them the best GC rider in the world"...
It depends. There are many theories (& these are just theories) but economics, age & national origins could play a role. Wiggins was getting old, Froome had a British passport & Sky was very Anglo-centric with its planning (hence G Thomas becoming a TdF winner). Vingegaard meanwhile is Danish & the TdF started... in Denmark.

Conjuncture of course but reasons can be logically deduced regarding 'why' certain riders get boosted over others. Age, nationality, convenience, economic profitability etc. It's why Wout van Aert is so massively important for Jumbo, i.e. he's Belgian.

But sure, behind most of this is the concept of super responders, as always. Take Tobias Foss for example: won the Tour de l'Avenir (like Pogacar & Bernal), had a breakthrough season last year (especially his ITT result in Itzulia) but just hasn't managed to push on to that extra level (in fact had a completely sh*t Giro). I'm sure Jumbo tried with Foss as well. It just hasn't worked out the way it did with Vingegaard. So Vinge was a happy accident maybe, but most likely best responder among of a selection of potential leaders (Oomen, Foss etc.).
 
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It depends. There are many theories (& these are just theories) but economics, age & national origins could play a role. Wiggins was getting old, Froome had a British passport & Sky was very Anglo-centric with its planning (hence G Thomas becoming a TdF winner). Vingegaard meanwhile is Danish & the TdF started... in Denmark.

Conjuncture of course but reasons can be logically deduced regarding 'why' certain riders get boosted over others. Age, nationality, convenience, economic profitability etc. It's why Wout van Aert is so massively important for Jumbo, i.e. he's Belgian.

But sure, behind most of this is the concept of super responders, as always. Take Tobias Foss for example: won the Tour de l'Avenir (like Pogacar & Bernal), had a breakthrough season last year (especially his ITT result in Itzulia) but just hasn't managed to push on to that extra level (in fact had a completely sh*t Giro). I'm sure Jumbo tried with Foss as well. It just hasn't worked out the way it did with Vingegaard. So Vinge was a happy accident maybe, but most likely best responder among of a selection of potential leaders (Oomen, Foss etc.).
Ok, yes, agree. Its actually proven by now that economics is a component - the cancer-surviving American (Armstrong) gets protected by the UCI, while others not. But the logical successor of Wiggins in my book then would have been someone like Kennaugh and I am not sure the Danish argument is the strongest (even if there now is some hype). So yes, I am also leaning very much towards Vingegaard being "physically better suited" than lets say Oomen and Foss.
 
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You cannot compare pre 2020 TdF Pogacar with pre 2021 TdF Vingo. One had a solid palmares including ToC, that Vuelta podium you mention but many other top results stringing back to his time as an 18 year old. By contrast 2021 TdF Vingo showed nothing which gave any clue despite being nearly two years older. From an impartial observer’s point of view it’s about as obvious as it can get. So please excuse me for not believing.
He didn't. He compared him with 2019 Pogi. Both had good results throughout the season leading up to the GT (Vingegaard's Itzulia was more impressive than any of Pogi's results), both did even better in their GT than expected.

The difference is their age and that it was Pogi's first pro season while it was Vingegaard's 3rd. But in terms of absolute numbers, Pogi improved massively that year.
 
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He didn't. He compared him with 2019 Pogi. Both had good results throughout the season leading up to the GT (Vingegaard's Itzulia was more impressive than any of Pogi's results), both did even better in their GT than expected.

The difference is their age and that it was Pogi's first pro season while it was Vingegaard's 3rd. But in terms of absolute numbers, Pogi improved massively that year.
Yes, that was my point exactly.

But of course Pogacar was seen as the bigger talent before the 2019 Vuelta, there's no doubt about that. But if Vingegaard had been able to produce more results as U23 rider, perhaps getting a top 10/5 at l'Avenir, for instance, people wouldn't have been as surprised to see him become a great GT rider. And if he had won Tour de Pologne in 2019, that wouldn have changed the expectations as well.

But we know he apparently had a great physique and was able to climb well before joining JV, but in order to turn into a successful rider, he had to a) not be injured, b) ride more races that suited him), c) be able to arrive fresher to the climbs, so his abilities could become useful in races and d) go through whatever kind of training a team like JV could provide him with.

I'm not denying that the guy's greatest talent could be that he responds very well to PED usage, but if so, he isn't the first and won't be the last rider, who takes advantage of that.
 
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Pantani and Vingo did not have similar results at 23. Nonsense.

As a 22 year old amateur, Pantani won the 1992 Girobio, the amateur version of the Giro d'Italia, after finishing third in 1990 (at 20 years old) and second in 1991 (21).
Makes no sense to compare those results to Vingegaards, as he was already riding pro at that age. Compare their result when they were both 23 and both riding pro. They're similar.

What about those people Pantani lost to in the two years before he won the babygiro? They are both younger than him. If he was such a huge promising talent, shouldn't he be able to beat riders his own age? He won the babygiro because the others turned pro before him.
 
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He didn't. He compared him with 2019 Pogi. Both had good results throughout the season leading up to the GT (Vingegaard's Itzulia was more impressive than any of Pogi's results), both did even better in their GT than expected.

The difference is their age and that it was Pogi's first pro season while it was Vingegaard's 3rd. But in terms of absolute numbers, Pogi improved massively that year.
Yes the differences are their ages - and Vingo’s relative lack of results at a young age. I looked at both rider’s records. Vingegaard just seems more ridiculous and more out of nowhere.

Prior to that stage 20 TT I don’t see a great transformation of Pog in 2019 considering how young he was. By then Pog was winning ToC ahead of decent competition. But he had results before then as an 18 year old. All this is easily checked.

At ToC Pog was the youngest to win a world tour race - before his 21st birthday. And a stage race with proper climbs to boot. At the same age what was Vingo doing? He only became known to most of us at the 2021 TdF?

I think Rackham suggested Vingo is a super responder being used to enact revenge for the 2020 TdF. You out doped us that day well we will see about that ! I wonder about that?
 
Yes the differences are their ages - and Vingo’s relative lack of results at a young age. I looked at both rider’s records. Vingegaard just seems more ridiculous and more out of nowhere.

Prior to that stage 20 TT I don’t see a great transformation of Pog in 2019 considering how young he was. By then Pog was winning ToC ahead of decent competition. But he had results before then as an 18 year old. All this is easily checked.

At ToC Pog was the youngest to win a world tour race - before his 21st birthday. And a stage race with proper climbs to boot. At the same age what was Vingo doing? He only became known to most of us at the 2021 TdF?

I think Rackham suggested Vingo is a super responder being used to enact revenge for the 2020 TdF. You out doped us that day well we will see about that ! I wonder about that?
Stage 20 was a mountain stage, not an ITT (remember, this is about Pogi's 2019 season). There was a bigger jump in performance from Pogi's Tour of California to his Vuelta, than there was from Vingegaard's Itzulia to his Tour later that year.
 
For the Danes that keeps an eye on what happens with the Danish cycling scene, you can't really say that The Duck (let's be honest, look at the beak!) has come from out of nowhere - or that he hasn't been expected to do well as a GT contender. I know it's been mentioned by others already... Just to give the necessary perspective on his junior years. He's a scrawny guy with, apparantly, huge lungs - but he comes from the flattest, most windy place in Denmark (where the wind always blows!) - The Jutland West Coast. He had a tough time competing as a junior, where it's every rider for themselves - but i wouldn't have scored a single point as a rider myself if every race i did was in the mountains. Not as much of a disadvantage for a small guy in the wind, i know - but it's still gonna be hard to pick up the wins. As he came into his mid teen years, he started to rack up the results. At age 21, riding for Danish Conti-team Colo-Quick, he had a test with Team Danmark, who manages the national teams across a multitude of sports, and several articles was written on these tests:

"21-year-old Jonas Vingegaard rides around Thy with a physique, many cyclists have good reason to envy. - He simply has a pump and heart that is in a class of its own. This is the assessment from Lars Johansen, who is a sports physiologist at Team Denmark. He is deeply impressed with the cycling talent Jonas Vingegaard, who has delivered a test result that Danish experts have not seen before. - Hans is clearly free of the average of Danish, male cyclists. He has a plus maybe 15 percent and that is marked. In other words, Jonas Vingegaard is a name worth noting. The 21-year-old North Jutlander is blessed with optimal physique and an extraordinary talent for cycling. - If his development can continue, then he will come a long way. As in really, really far, says Christian Andersen, who is sports director at Team ColoQuick. - He can ride in all kinds of terrain, and then he is extremely good uphill. When he is completely down to weigh 58 kilograms, he steps really, really many watts per kilogram. Right now Jonas Vingegaard is driving around North Jutland and hopes that with a professional contract he can get the opportunity to settle in Spain, where the hills are significantly higher than in Denmark. - The first dream is to become a professional, and then you have a dream to win the Tour de France one day, it sounds from Vingegaard himself. "
(translated from Danish TV2 - original found here: https://sport.tv2.dk/cykling/2018-07-26-dansk-talent-med-saerligt-hjerte-spraenger-testrekorder

Now, i've followed cycling for too many years to really believe that the riders at the very top are doing it clean. So i'm not even gonna get in to that side of the discussion...

You gotta hand it to the Danish birds, though. First flew the Eagle. Then the Chicken was plucked and slaughtered. Now we've got a Duck taking off - not to forget the Singing Bird also worth mentioning! :sweatsmile:
 

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