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Team Jumbo-Visma

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Once again Team Vespa—Lease-a-Motorbike has turned a donkey into a racehorse.

Once again the UCI doesn't think there's anything suspicious going on.

Once again the commentators say it's a surprise. No, dear commentators, a surprise would be if another team could win a race.

Once again there won't be an independent investigation.

Once again nothing has changed in cycling.
 
Are we just numb to their mutancy at this point? They run one of the most obvious doping programmes of all time, everyone goes up a level, and it's like , everyone in the cycling world just pretends they don't see it? Maybe they just find discussing it boring.

Jorgensen did a social media post after last spring at Movistar talking about his dedication to get results, multiple altitude camp, personal nutritionist, extremely structured training with his coach, heat adaption, sleeping etc. Leaving no stone unturned.

These are the things that visma are renowned for. And yet he goes to Visma and instantly goes up another level.

Their GC guy makes the stage races he enters a foregone conclusion. Super talents like Ajuso and young grand tour winners like hindley can't hold his wheel.

They turned tratnik, a 34yo who couldn't make the WT in his 20s, into a top classics champion. Same with Christopher Laporte.

Wva in le tour 2022 was the most obvious doped rider I have ever seen.

They made sep kuss a gt winner. What a joke.

Meanwhile a mutant Roglic leave the team and suddenly looks human. And it's not like he went to Cofidis. Bora is a top top team for many years.
 
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Are we just numb to their mutancy at this point? They run one of the most obvious doping programmes of all time, everyone goes up a level, and it's like , everyone in the cycling world just pretends they don't see it? Maybe they just find discussing it boring.

Jorgensen did a social media post after last spring at Movistar talking about his dedication to get results, multiple altitude camp, personal nutritionist, extremely structured training with jic coach, heat adaption, sleeping etc.

And yet he goes to Visma and instantly goes up another level.

Their GC guy makes the stage races he enters a foregone conclusion.

They turned tratnik, a 34yo who couldn't make the WT in his 20s, into a top classics champion. Same with Christopher Laporte.

Wva in le tour 2022 was the most obvious doped rider I have ever seen.

They made sep kuss a gt winner. What a joke.

Meanwhile a mutant Roglic leave the team and suddenly looks human. And it's not like he went to Cofidis. Bora is a top top team for many years.
Are we acting like Roglic doesn't know 100% what is going on? He has been there for 7 years. Shouldn't be that hard to replicate at Bora, should it?

Also, if Pogacar according to mou can be like 15% better because he changed coach and training schedule, why wouldn't it be the same for Jorgensen?
 
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Primoz: "Where is my baking soda"
Bora: "Wut?"
Primoz: "Oh sh*t"

I think Rog might have been riding Paris-Nice paniagua of sorts. Just a hunch. I love the rider but I'm also absolutely 100% certain he's determined to do well in the Tour & will do whatever it takes to make it happen - including peaking for one objective at the right time. I also think Evenepoel was obviously totally 'light' on the juice compared to his peaks.

Jorgenson meanwhile will be prepared for his target optimally & then fall back into a support role. Maybe my theories are whacky & totally insane (fair enough) but I absolutely guarantee (I'll die on this hill) the 'official' narratives which get spun by teams, media & fans alike about the respective performances & form of these riders is absolute hogwash. Rog for example didn't become sh*t overnight. There's something going on there.

I simply think the guys with GT aspirations can no longer roll into these one week races casually anymore & get an easy win due to the armadas (UAE, Visma etc.) having such massive depth in quality which means they'll have some riders peaking for these races, even in March.
 
probably you don't follow the racing closely

Jorgenson with Movistar

8th GC ParisNice 2021 and 2023,
2nd GC Romandie 2023,
1st Oman 2023,
4th E3 2023,
9th Ronde 2023,
4th Provence 2022,
20th TDF 2022,
13th Dauphiné 2022

those are nice results but none of them point to him easily holding Remco's wheel during an all-out assault on the very difficult Nice stage at Paris-Nice. he has become a different rider at Visma, there's no other way about it.
 
The thought ticking in my head is why riders don't know what they're themselves are on?! I understand it would be more risky if they knew, but it must be some of them who really wants to know, no? I don't get why medical marginal gains wouldn't be possible to replicate when changing teams. At least if it's really something turning everyone into mutants.

But if programs were everything why on earth they can't even give Kelderman at least one effing win?!

It can't be the whole story.

Maybe a rider also chose to leave bc they've had it with the programs and wants to know their worth without it?! Or just had it with the risks.
 
Regarding Kruijswijk, he is extremely injury and crash prone (like Kelderman) and he starts to be very good from 10th / 11th day of competition. With the depth of Visma post 2020 he was never going to be a leader.

He missed a couple of opportunities. Apart from his infamous crash into the bank of snow, I would say he would have been a top contender on 2020 Giro (on paper, he was the best of the field apart from Geraint Thomas and Nibali, whose association with Trek did not work)

As of Visma, apart from Vingegaard who was a nobody even on his first years at the team, they have signed tons of good riders that suddenly turn up a level (or two) when joining the squad, regardless of age and situation.

That is one of the strongest indications of a great doping program.
 
Are we just numb to their mutancy at this point? They run one of the most obvious doping programmes of all time, everyone goes up a level, and it's like , everyone in the cycling world just pretends they don't see it? Maybe they just find discussing it boring.

Jorgensen did a social media post after last spring at Movistar talking about his dedication to get results, multiple altitude camp, personal nutritionist, extremely structured training with jic coach, heat adaption, sleeping etc.

And yet he goes to Visma and instantly goes up another level.

Their GC guy makes the stage races he enters a foregone conclusion.

They turned tratnik, a 34yo who couldn't make the WT in his 20s, into a top classics champion. Same with Christopher Laporte.

Wva in le tour 2022 was the most obvious doped rider I have ever seen.

They made sep kuss a gt winner. What a joke.

Meanwhile a mutant Roglic leave the team and suddenly looks human. And it's not like he went to Cofidis. Bora is a top top team for many years.
Couldn't have put it better.
 
I always felt Jorgenson would be similar to Laporte (pre-Visma) on a career path: never one of the top guys but will get you solid results in the big races, maybe a win if the top guys crash out or have poor form.

Then, Laporte went to Jumbo Visma and....
Now, Jorgenson went to Visma and ...
 
Regarding Kruijswijk, he is extremely injury and crash prone (like Kelderman) and he starts to be very good from 10th / 11th day of competition. With the depth of Visma post 2020 he was never going to be a leader.

He missed a couple of opportunities. Apart from his infamous crash into the bank of snow, I would say he would have been a top contender on 2020 Giro (on paper, he was the best of the field apart from Geraint Thomas and Nibali, whose association with Trek did not work)

As of Visma, apart from Vingegaard who was a nobody even on his first years at the team, they have signed tons of good riders that suddenly turn up a level (or two) when joining the squad, regardless of age and situation.

That is one of the strongest indications of a great doping program.
They remind me of Kelme. It didn't matter who they plugged in, they would always performed. It became kind os suspicious. Back then there were probably several teams like that, including US Postal.

That being said, one aspect of the Jorgenson interview that troubled me was his decision to completely criticize Movistar. While it may not concern many, given Movistar's lack of popularity, it's never wise to denigrate a former employer, particularly one that extended a helping hand.
 
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The thought ticking in my head is why riders don't know what they're themselves are on?! I understand it would be more risky if they knew, but it must be some of them who really wants to know, no? I don't get why medical marginal gains wouldn't be possible to replicate when changing teams. At least if it's really something turning everyone into mutants.

But if programs were everything why on earth they can't even give Kelderman at least one effing win?!

It can't be the whole story.

Maybe a rider also chose to leave bc they've had it with the programs and wants to know their worth without it?! Or just had it with the risks.
The riders are not the most valuable asset.
 
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Reactions: noob
I think Rog might have been riding Paris-Nice paniagua of sorts. Just a hunch. I love the rider but I'm also absolutely 100% certain he's determined to do well in the Tour & will do whatever it takes to make it happen - including peaking for one objective at the right time. I also think Evenepoel was obviously totally 'light' on the juice compared to his peaks.

Jorgenson meanwhile will be prepared for his target optimally & then fall back into a support role. Maybe my theories are whacky & totally insane (fair enough) but I absolutely guarantee (I'll die on this hill) the 'official' narratives which get spun by teams, media & fans alike about the respective performances & form of these riders is absolute hogwash. Rog for example didn't become sh*t overnight. There's something going on there.

I simply think the guys with GT aspirations can no longer roll into these one week races casually anymore & get an easy win due to the armadas (UAE, Visma etc.) having such massive depth in quality which means they'll have some riders peaking for these races, even in March.
Ok, but why? Its totally normally to win races all year nowadays. Vingegaard does. Pogacar does. Why would Roglic want to fly low till the Tour? It won't necessarily lower pressure from the team and media...
 
Ok, but why? Its totally normally to win races all year nowadays. Vingegaard does. Pogacar does. Why would Roglic want to fly low till the Tour? It won't necessarily lower pressure from the team and media...

One monster peak in July, maybe.

I'm only speculating here but Monte Lussari in the Giro 2023 was IMO a very well planned peak, dating all the way back to January last year when he did a recon of the ITT.

With Red Bull taking over the team (the change will come into effect in the TdF) & with the Tour being the goal for Rog (above everything else), I think it's way too early to draw conclusions based on his early season form.

He's no longer at Jumbo so IMO I don't think his approach (or form) should be compared to those years. This time it's all about the Tour.