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Team Jumbo-Visma

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They were discredited over methods widely accepted as having huge performance enhancing effects. Puffers not so much.

Best I could discern was that salbutamol helps weight loss? It certainly wouldn’t help an average athlete win the Tour de France or the transformation seen at the 2011 Vuelta. Of course there were other theories which Froome wasn’t “busted” for but he was never sanctioned for those.

For the record, I am no fanboy of Froome.
That's not the point. The point is being busted for something doesn't mean it was the only thing they were on, just as not getting busted doesn't mean they are clean. Unless you also believe that Dopador was only using clenbuterol...
 
Froome was busted & everyone knows it. He went nuts in 2017-18 with his Tour-Vuelta-Giro treble. It got too much & he took too many risks with Finestre being the ultimate p*sstake.

Yeah so comparable to Belles Filles, when Pogacar couldn't hear the time checks and overdid it by 10x Armstrong levels.

Stage 19 Giro has been well analysed by anyone who knows a bit about cycling, and almost anyone who is rational points out that Dumoulin was taken by surprise by Froome's attack so far out. The Sky train had decimated the peloton by then anyway - GOING ALL IN FOR THE SOLO FROOME ATTACK. Dumoulin was HANDICAPPED even by the four riders "helping" him chase. Two of them, Carapaz and Lopez were fighting for the young riders jersey between them and contributed NOTHING TO THE CHASE. Pinot was struggling physically anyway (retired from the race next day) and Reichenbach was "descending like an old lady" according to Dumoulin himself.

It's a celebrated stage in the history of Grand Tours for good reasons (not bad reasons)

Only the galactically stupid can't agree with the consensus on that.
 
Yeah so comparable to Belles Filles, when Pogacar couldn't hear the time checks and overdid it by 10x Armstrong levels.

Stage 19 Giro has been well analysed by anyone who knows a bit about cycling, and almost anyone who is rational points out that Dumoulin was taken by surprise by Froome's attack so far out. The Sky train had decimated the peloton by then anyway - GOING ALL IN FOR THE SOLO FROOME ATTACK. Dumoulin was HANDICAPPED even by the four riders "helping" him chase. Two of them, Carapaz and Lopez were fighting for the young riders jersey between them and contributed NOTHING TO THE CHASE. Pinot was struggling physically anyway (retired from the race next day) and Reichenbach was "descending like an old lady" according to Dumoulin himself.

It's a celebrated stage in the history of Grand Tours for good reasons (not bad reasons)

Only the galactically stupid can't agree with the consensus on that.

Hello Michelle.
 
Yeah so comparable to Belles Filles, when Pogacar couldn't hear the time checks and overdid it by 10x Armstrong levels.

Stage 19 Giro has been well analysed by anyone who knows a bit about cycling, and almost anyone who is rational points out that Dumoulin was taken by surprise by Froome's attack so far out. The Sky train had decimated the peloton by then anyway - GOING ALL IN FOR THE SOLO FROOME ATTACK. Dumoulin was HANDICAPPED even by the four riders "helping" him chase. Two of them, Carapaz and Lopez were fighting for the young riders jersey between them and contributed NOTHING TO THE CHASE. Pinot was struggling physically anyway (retired from the race next day) and Reichenbach was "descending like an old lady" according to Dumoulin himself.

It's a celebrated stage in the history of Grand Tours for good reasons (not bad reasons)

Only the galactically stupid can't agree with the consensus on that.
Celebrated by whom ? Uk and Kenya
 
This is the Jumbo Visma thread - why is this being sidetracked to Froome? With the TdF looming, let’s stick to the subject.

I’ve never been a fan of his but Froome should be discussed in the Froome thread. By wasting time discussing Froome here you are diverting attention from where it needs to be at this time.
 
Thank you for explaining why we get the same long-debunked theory-crafting about Froome's past, the 2008 Tour performances and the likes being raised too every time the debunkings have dropped off the front page enough to reach a new audience. It's a two-way road.

As I say, five and a half years ago I went eleven paragraphs into why it is Sky's inner sanctum and not Britain as a whole that faces scrutiny and that people are turning their noses up at... and five and a half years later we're still getting "it's just because everybody hates the British" raised periodically and perpetuating the cycle of talking about it, and then those same posters whining that the threads about Sky are longer than other ones that don't have to repeat themselves start to finish every few months.


Well, that is weird. Nowhere in my post do I mention anything to do with nationality.

I guess we can add your retort to the conspiricist narrative
 
This is the Jumbo Visma thread - why is this being sidetracked to Froome? With the TdF looming, let’s stick to the subject.

I’ve never been a fan of his but Froome should be discussed in the Froome thread. By wasting time discussing Froome here you are diverting attention from where it needs to be at this time.
Jumbo never said they'll win clean within 5 years with a ski jumper or fisherman, so there's nothing to discuss?
 
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LOL.

He didn't "test positive". He exceeded the therapeutic threshold for the asthma drug. This isn't "testing positive" in any sense.

no that's exactly what testing positive is. why is there a threshold in the first place then? this post alone should disqualify you from ever being taken seriously on this forum (if there's actually anyone left that still does). you're nothing but a British fanboy.
 
no that's exactly what testing positive is. why is there a threshold in the first place then? this post alone should disqualify you from ever being taken seriously on this forum (if there's actually anyone left that still does). you're nothing but a British fanboy.
I think people who believe that Froome's salbutamol finding was relevant to his Grand Tour wins are the one's needing disqualifying from rational consideration.

I mean even Armstrong on his blog/channel couldn't imagine what the *** the benefit of the asthma puffer would have been for the top level GC contenders

edit: ie salbutamol doesn't zoom you up steep mountains at Belles Filles TT, Worlds TT, Olympics TT and Giro TT effectively over a minute against the rest of the field, like what Jumbo riders Dumoulin/Roglic must have been taking (and Pogacar of course, the worst offender in history to get away with it so far)
 
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I think people who believe that Froome's salbutamol finding was relevant to his Grand Tour wins are the one's needing disqualifying from rational consideration.

I mean even Armstrong on his blog/channel couldn't imagine what the *** the benefit of the asthma puffer would have been for the top level GC contenders

edit: ie salbutamol doesn't zoom you up steep mountains at Belles Filles TT, Worlds TT, Olympics TT and Giro TT effectively over a minute against the rest of the field, like what Jumbo riders Dumoulin/Roglic must have been taking (and Pogacar of course, the worst offender in history to get away with it so far)
Dude! Take your xanax and go to bed. Life will look better in the morning. FFS you are making macbindle look like an Anglophobe.
 
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Dude! Take your xanax and go to bed. Life will look better in the morning. FFS you are making macbindle look like an Anglophobe.
Well that's just rude.

Jumbo are associated with at least three riders, Dumoulin, Roglic and Vingegaard who are dodgy as ***, and they have a couple others in their roster just as dodgy.

Jumbo winning the (hidden) drugs battle against UAE and Bahrain is not gonna be great for cycling going forwards
 
I think people who believe that Froome's salbutamol finding was relevant to his Grand Tour wins are the one's needing disqualifying from rational consideration.

I mean even Armstrong on his blog/channel couldn't imagine what the *** the benefit of the asthma puffer would have been for the top level GC contenders

edit: ie salbutamol doesn't zoom you up steep mountains at Belles Filles TT, Worlds TT, Olympics TT and Giro TT effectively over a minute against the rest of the field, like what Jumbo riders Dumoulin/Roglic must have been taking (and Pogacar of course, the worst offender in history to get away with it so far)
But albuterol does let you breathe easier even if you don’t have asthma which is useful during exercise, lose weight in high doses (which is why there’s the theory of the blood bag considering his shape before and after), and help keep your blood pressure low among other uses.

People gave Quintana crap for the tramadol stating the pain relief could have allowed him to perform better yet the same should be said on albuterol use considering the benefit on breathing. You can’t exert yourself at your best if you’re in pain or having difficulty breathing. Both those medications help with that. Further if Froome was truly that dehydrated making his albuterol level be higher, he’d have been having a lot more issues during the race.

On top of Sky bending and even breaking the rules on many feeding before the last climb and on the climb that helped stop Froome from having a hunger knock.
 
Well that's just rude.

Jumbo are associated with at least three riders, Dumoulin, Roglic and Vingegaard who are dodgy as ***, and they have a couple others in their roster just as dodgy.

Jumbo winning the (hidden) drugs battle against UAE and Bahrain is not gonna be great for cycling going forwards
Yeah so you keep saying, in my opinion Froome, Thomas and Wigans were the most exceptional transformations in GT success since Lance Armstrong. Rafal Majka has had a heck of a resurgence as a mountain domestique and Hirschi had a period of time where he looked like a world beater. What about FDJ with a suddenly outstanding Gaudu and resurgent in year of retirement Pinot? Everyone looks dodgy unless they are just sucking, depends on how you look at it. You have obviously picked the ones that you want to focus on so have at it, makes it easier to ignore you going forward.
 
Yeah so you keep saying, in my opinion Froome, Thomas and Wigans were the most exceptional transformations in GT success since Lance Armstrong. Rafal Majka has had a heck of a resurgence as a mountain domestique and Hirschi had a period of time where he looked like a world beater. What about FDJ with a suddenly outstanding Gaudu and resurgent in year of retirement Pinot? Everyone looks dodgy unless they are just sucking, depends on how you look at it. You have obviously picked the ones that you want to focus on so have at it, makes it easier to ignore you going forward.
You may be right. But Froome and Wiggins are the past. Let’s worry about July ? I can’t see JV being worried about souped up Thomas.
 
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But albuterol does let you breathe easier even if you don’t have asthma which is useful during exercise, lose weight in high doses (which is why there’s the theory of the blood bag considering his shape before and after), and help keep your blood pressure low among other uses.

People gave Quintana crap for the tramadol stating the pain relief could have allowed him to perform better yet the same should be said on albuterol use considering the benefit on breathing. You can’t exert yourself at your best if you’re in pain or having difficulty breathing. Both those medications help with that. Further if Froome was truly that dehydrated making his albuterol level be higher, he’d have been having a lot more issues during the race.

On top of Sky bending and even breaking the rules on many feeding before the last climb and on the climb that helped stop Froome from having a hunger knock.
How about contador? Clembuterol helped him?
 
How about contador? Clembuterol helped him?
In theory it could considering it has the same benefits but is a long acting medication versus the short acting albuterol. So it would have to be taken the night before or morning of versus the at will use of albuterol for its effects to occur. On top of Contador having a minuscule and Froome a major amount. Which is why there was the blood bag theory for Contador since it was such a small amount.
 
In theory it could considering it has the same benefits but is a long acting medication versus the short acting albuterol. So it would have to be taken the night before or morning of versus the at will use of albuterol for its effects to occur. On top of Contador having a minuscule and Froome a major amount. Which is why there was the blood bag theory for Contador since it was such a small amount.
They also found traces of plastic on contador right?
 
They also found traces of plastic on contador right?
There was that plastic finding from one test but the findings and test were not a recognized proper test by UCI so they didn’t charge him for it. Which if accurate, fueled the blood doping accusations and that Contador had used clenbuterol for weight lose and got his blood at the time. There was a rumor that Contador’s lawyer used this potential plastic positive to fuel the contaminated meat defense of it being improperly handled. UCI also found it was 400x and then 40x less than the minimal detection amount for clenbuterol. After pushing the case back for many, many, many months CAS ruled Contador accidentally ingested clenbuterol (so stating it was from contaminated meat or some other source) but is in charge of what enters his body so guilty by default.
 
There was that plastic finding from one test but the findings and test were not a recognized proper test by UCI so they didn’t charge him for it. Which if accurate, fueled the blood doping accusations and that Contador had used clenbuterol for weight lose and got his blood at the time. There was a rumor that Contador’s lawyer used this potential plastic positive to fuel the contaminated meat defense of it being improperly handled. UCI also found it was 400x and then 40x less than the minimal detection amount for clenbuterol. After pushing the case back for many, many, many months CAS ruled Contador accidentally ingested clenbuterol (so stating it was from contaminated meat or some other source) but is in charge of what enters his body so guilty by default.
Also, with all of that like I’ve been stating for years Contador and Froome’s cases were very similar to the T with the exception of one being well below the amount and the other well above the amount. Both had the same defense of accidental ingestion, both had the same lawyers, both had the same ruling of the substance being accidentally ingested, but only one was stripped of their results. In my opinion Froome’s fans are more than welcome to back up that Froome shouldn’t have his Vuelta and Giro stripped, but in that same breath they can’t ridicule Contador and the lost results when he had the same thing happen to him as Froome. It’s the pot calling the kettle black.


On Jumbo they’re riding red hot all year and hit on their Giro objective while missing the monuments. It should be a hit on the Tour objective as well if Pog isn’t in shape.
 
Also, with all of that like I’ve been stating for years Contador and Froome’s cases were very similar to the T with the exception of one being well below the amount and the other well above the amount. Both had the same defense of accidental ingestion, both had the same lawyers, both had the same ruling of the substance being accidentally ingested, but only one was stripped of their results. In my opinion Froome’s fans are more than welcome to back up that Froome shouldn’t have his Vuelta and Giro stripped, but in that same breath they can’t ridicule Contador and the lost results when he had the same thing happen to him as Froome. It’s the pot calling the kettle black.


On Jumbo they’re riding red hot all year and hit on their Giro objective while missing the monuments. It should be a hit on the Tour objective as well if Pog isn’t in shape.

The only thing I would add to Froome vs Contador situation is in my opinion salbutomol isn't in the same class of doping as clen and possible use of blood infusions (traces of plasticizer).
 
The only thing I would add to Froome vs Contador situation is in my opinion salbutomol isn't in the same class of doping as clen and possible use of blood infusions (traces of plasticizer).
Which is fine especially with the one test reporting plastic but both medications are in bronchodilators with the same mechanism of action. Clen is just long acting and albuterol is short, like how insulin has rapid, short, and long acting types. If it was a different medication class and type I’d agree with that.
 

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