Thai Cycling Association breach UCI Constitution

[Thairider]

There are quite a few cyclists of nationalities other than Thai who live in Thailand. Under UCI regulations the national federation of the country in which you are resident must issue your UCI licence. Thailand has always done that ........ until this year when they want to charge us foreigners 5 x (yes, five times) more than Thai riders. Brian Cookson told me that under the regulations Federations are allowed to charge what they like. However charging Foreign riders more than local riders is discriminatory. Can you imagine what would happen if the Brits did that, or the French or the Americans (you get my drift!)?
Interestingly the UCI constitution also says that all riders should be treated with equality and without racism (Article 3). The regs also say (Article 6) that national federations must adopt the UCI constitution.
Well, in this case they are clearly not acting as per the Constitution. I ask all of you to contact the UCI and insist that they do something about the Thai Cycling Association's racism against committed riders and coaches from other countries who live in Thailand.
Another issue here is that the UCI are obliged to issue that licence if the national association will not do so. 5 emails, two facebooks and one phone call later and I still cannot get a response from the UCI. The receptionist who took my call told me to email then slammed the phone down on me.

 

[Master50]

Sorry to hear you are getting the shaft from the Thai federation. You are not describing racism but another ism. they will issue you a licence regardless of your race. It is your nationality that garners the added fee. I agree it is unfair but it is not racism unless for example they gave asians from nearby countries a licence at a certain rate and refused you because you are white or purple.
If the premium is not a violation of the constitution then the UCI would liekely not issue you a licence just so you save money over Thai citizens.

The sound of a phone hanging up is the same if they put it down gently..CLICK..
Thai must issue you a licence if you live there but they do not have to treat you the same as thai citizens. Maybe there are government subsidies for the thai federation for thai citizens that the government does not pay for foreign riders. it might cost the thai federation more to service you as a foreigner Yes it might be a cash grab for a poor federations too. A sort of foreign subsidy to Thai riders?

Just suggesting the situation while unfair may be justified or something other than racism.

 

[Thairider]

That's not quite right. Supposing the Italian federation refused to issue licenses to African riders, what would the UCI say about that?
I have no doubt that if I paid the UCI for a licence I would pay much much more than I would ever pay the Thais. But that ain't the issue. I don't care about the money: it's the principle.

 

[Thairider]

The UCI and Brian Cookson refuse to do anything about this serious breach of their own constitution. The UCI will not grant me a licence as I am unable to get one from the Thais. This also breaches their own constitution. When they are dealing with major issues like Astana and they are clearly breaching their own constitution how can you trust them?

 

[King Boonen]

You are able to get a licence from the Thai federation though, they are not refusing to issue you with one, this is how they will say they are following the constitution. There may well be extra costs associated, although I doubt it.


I agree, it's unfair and shouldn't happen unless there is a valid reason they can provide you with. I have no idea if the same happens elsewhere though, maybe it does.

 

[simo1733]

How much do they charge you in Thailand?

 

[Master50]

The UCI and Brian Cookson refuse to do anything about this serious breach of their own constitution. The UCI will not grant me a licence as I am unable to get one from the Thais. This also breaches their own constitution. When they are dealing with major issues like Astana and they are clearly breaching their own constitution how can you trust them?

Again
You said the thais charge you 5 times what they charge Thai riders. that is not a refusal to issue you a licence it is charging you five times more. They have not refused you a licence, only want more money for the service. The constitution is not being broken, maybe bent a little.
So what do they charge you? We pay around $75.00 Canadian for a racing licence in BC but Ontario riders might pay more or less depending on their provincial association. I don't know if foreign riders pay less or more for a licence. I only have a insured membership and not a racing licence and that is $40.00 or $50 after January 1st.
Again you have a reason to complain but this is not a constitutional issue it is a licence issue and I think it is just too bad you live in Thailand. Oh and look up the definition of racism too. Your example of Italy not issuing licences to africans? Do you mean all of them or only the white ones? Racism would be if they refused to give a licence to an Italian that is black. Nationality is not racist it is nationalist and that is not protected. Thailand can charge foreigners more for a licence, they cannot refuse you a licence, and you have not said that only that, you object to the amount. So move or pay the fee. Maybe find all the others paying the big fee and jointly complain to the Thai federation. there might be some strength in numbers or at least an explanation of the added fee.

 

[Thairider]

I am afraid that Master 50 is talking through his hat. He doesn't understand what racism means and is using an idiosyncratic definition. This is the definition that the UN and the EU uses, it is a much broader use of racial discrimination than that of the common parlance--
the term "racial discrimination" shall mean any distinction, exclusion, restriction, or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin that has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life. http://www.ohchr.org/EN/ProfessionalInterest/Pages/CERD.aspx


Let's go back to the issue: The Thai Cycling Association is charging foreigners 5 x more than Thais for their licence. That is the issue. Cost is of no consequence in this discussion: it is dirt cheap here but I am not worried about how much. I'd rather pay the Canadians their price than be discriminated against here.

With this policy the Thais are also in clear breach of the Olympic Charter to which the UCI is a signatory:

6. Any form of discrimination with regard to a country or a person on grounds of race, religion, politics, gender or otherwise is incompatible with belonging to the Olympic Movement.



Although the UN convention says it doesn't apply to distinctions between citizens and non-citizens, this does not affect the definition of racism to include ethnicity or nationality. In other words, the Thai Cycling Association is in clear breach of the UCI Constitution and the Constitution of the Olympic movement.

The easiest and quickest way to deal with this is for the UCI to ask the Thai Cycling Association to rethink it's policy because of the breaches it involves. I know that the Thais have had a problem with foreigners who do not live in Thailand getting licences because the cost is so cheap, but that can be easily overcome by asking for proof of residence (ie Visa Stamp in passport or house document). There is no additional cost in so doing. Indeed to issue a licence to a foreigner in any country involves no additional cost.

All I am asking for is that the UCI suggests to the Thais that they should reconsider this policy.

 

[Helvellyn]

As someone who also lives in Thailand, I feel you must be aware of the dual pricing that goes on here in general - the classic example being national parks charging foreigners 10x the amount Thais pay. It is annoying, but if the cost is insignificant, is it really worth having a big battle over?

 

[Thairider]

As someone who also lives in Thailand, I feel you must be aware of the dual pricing that goes on here in general - the classic example being national parks charging foreigners 10x the amount Thais pay. It is annoying, but if the cost is insignificant, is it really worth having a big battle over?

The answer is quite simply: YES. I will not go into any national park that charges me 10 x more. The other trick here is for an establishment (eg zoo) to have a notice completely in Thai, including Thai numerals showing a low price, but the main price-board is in English and shows a higher amount. I always use the Thai price and if they don't let me in on that price then I won't go in.
As far as the TCA goes, it is a matter of principle. The Olympic and UCI Constitutions are quite clear about this matter so I have some grounds on which to oppose the Thais. My own sense of morality means that I won't cheat by going to (another local country) as some riders have - because that is also dishonest. And I won't allow the Thai Cycling Association to scam me in this way and I will fight it, including bringing legal proceedings against the UCI if that becomes necessary. My lawyers have already agreed that I have a strong case.

 

[simo1733]

Maybe they can make the case that some of these institutions are government funded, and the locals only are subsidised.

 

[Thairider]

Maybe they can make the case that some of these institutions are government funded, and the locals only are subsidised.

This is NOT the case at all. It is pure discrimination. There is n Government subsidies for licence fees.

 

[avanti]

I would buy a license from your home (citizenship) country? That is what my son did while living in the USA. No one ever questioned his license.

 

[Thairider]

Off course I could do this. But the UCI is quite clear on this matter. You get the licence from the country in which you are resident. Yes, I could use my daughter's address: but that would be bucking the system. I live in Thailand and I am therefore to a licence issued by the Thai Cycling Association - and under the UCI rules this means on the same non-discriminatory terms as everyone else. The strange thing is that Brian Cookson prefers to slam doors rather than deal with these type of issues. When due process has run its course, this matter will be dealt with by lawyers unless Mr Cookson and his team see sense.

 

[winkybiker]

Differential pricing is extremely common. Some of it obvious, some of it hidden. It always sucks to be on the wrong end of it, but not worth getting bent out of shape over. It's not necessarily discriminatory or racist, but just a way for businesses to maximise their profits. The thinking behind the policy in Thailand may be that expatriates are likely to have more disposable income and are therefore willing (if not keen) to pay more. Locals with less income are effectively subsized. But yes, it doesn't always seems fair.

(One beef I have is with "mate's rates" discounts in bike shops. "You? I don't know you, so while my buddy over there gets 30% off, you pay full whack".

 

[Thairider]

Differential pricing is extremely common. Some of it obvious, some of it hidden. It always sucks to be on the wrong end of it, but not worth getting bent out of shape over. It's not necessarily discriminatory or racist, but just a way for businesses to maximise their profits. The thinking behind the policy in Thailand may be that expatriates are likely to have more disposable income and are therefore willing (if not keen) to pay more. Locals with less income are effectively subsized. But yes, it doesn't always seems fair.

(One beef I have is with "mate's rates" discounts in bike shops. "You? I don't know you, so while my buddy over there gets 30% off, you pay full whack".

One cannot get away from the basic facts in this case. The UCI Constitution and the Olympic Charter both demand equality for all athletes. My lawyer's reading of this is that this is a clear and wanton breach. End of story. All the other issues (such as the Thais charging 10 x more for foreigners to go to their national parks) are side issues.

 

[Master50]

it is the opinion of your lawyer. just remember that if you don't prevail. fine last words when they present the bill.
So a licence is not actually expensive and you are probably spending the equivalent of an entire teams licence fee to win a point?
You bring up an interesting difference in your law too. You said I am speaking through my hat based on the EU definition of racism? what is Thailand's definition of racism? What court are you applying too? might need to be CAS to effect worldwide enforcement?
Sorry to sound so cynical but really? I wish you all the luck because I do hate this sort of thing, I am just pessimistic you will achieve your objectives.

 

[winkybiker]

One cannot get away from the basic facts in this case. The UCI Constitution and the Olympic Charter both demand equality for all athletes. My lawyer's reading of this is that this is a clear and wanton breach. End of story. All the other issues (such as the Thais charging 10 x more for foreigners to go to their national parks) are side issues.

It may well be a technical breach of the policies of the UCI. I'm just pointing out that it isn't uncommon. Whether it is "fair" (whatever that means) or "legal" (I don't think laws are really the issue here) is relevant to that.

"Equality" for all athletes might be interpreted as subsidising those athletes whose financial means are substantially less than others so each have an equal opportunity to have a licence. Expat/local discrimination is a crude proxy for wealth discrimination, but may be better than charging a 7-figure-earning expat banker the same rate as a waiter in a lcoal restaurant. It just depends on your view. I'd not be surprised to find that local Thai cyclists find the arrangement appropriate and "fair".

 

[Thairider]

It may well be a technical breach of the policies of the UCI. I'm just pointing out that it isn't uncommon. Whether it is "fair" (whatever that means) or "legal" (I don't think laws are really the issue here) is relevant to that.

"Equality" for all athletes might be interpreted as subsidising those athletes whose financial means are substantially less than others so each have an equal opportunity to have a licence. Expat/local discrimination is a crude proxy for wealth discrimination, but may be better than charging a 7-figure-earning expat banker the same rate as a waiter in a lcoal restaurant. It just depends on your view. I'd not be surprised to find that local Thai cyclists find the arrangement appropriate and "fair".

It seems that people only want to make an excuse for the Thais' behaviour. There are no excuses. Local Thai riders, including some that I coach and two on the national team, were shocked to hear how their foreign co-cyclists are being treated. As for the legal issue, I take advice from my legal advisors not from barrack-room lawyers.

 

[King Boonen]

Differential pricing is extremely common. Some of it obvious, some of it hidden. It always sucks to be on the wrong end of it, but not worth getting bent out of shape over. It's not necessarily discriminatory or racist, but just a way for businesses to maximise their profits. The thinking behind the policy in Thailand may be that expatriates are likely to have more disposable income and are therefore willing (if not keen) to pay more. Locals with less income are effectively subsized. But yes, it doesn't always seems fair.

(One beef I have is with "mate's rates" discounts in bike shops. "You? I don't know you, so while my buddy over there gets 30% off, you pay full whack".

That's funny, I have no problem with mates rates, if a shop wants to take a hit to help a long term customer or give them a discount that's up to them, that customer has supported them, maybe bought things from them they could buy cheaper online and have generally helped that shop stay in business (can you tell I get mates rates at a local place? although it's only ever 10-20% and I do buy things from them at full price, even when I can get them cheaper online). As long as the full price isn't overcharging me (if it is I'll just go elsewhere). Differential pricing, something commonly seen in supermarkets over here I find more annoying.

 

[Master50]

It seems that people only want to make an excuse for the Thais' behaviour. There are no excuses. Local Thai riders, including some that I coach and two on the national team, were shocked to hear how their foreign co-cyclists are being treated. As for the legal issue, I take advice from my legal advisors not from barrack-room lawyers.

It isn't about making excuses for the Thai federation. for me it is the colossal waste of time and money over a very minor point. You clearly have too much money to give a big wad of it to a lawyer over a bill you can easily afford. I am sure the other foreign nationals taking out thai licences are not trowing a wad your way and I'd bet most would not even split the savings of you win. Take it as Financial advice. Your lawyer will recommend you spend the money as it goes into his pocket win or lose.

 

[Thairider]

It isn't about making excuses for the Thai federation. for me it is the colossal waste of time and money over a very minor point. You clearly have too much money to give a big wad of it to a lawyer over a bill you can easily afford. I am sure the other foreign nationals taking out thai licences are not trowing a wad your way and I'd bet most would not even split the savings of you win. Take it as Financial advice. Your lawyer will recommend you spend the money as it goes into his pocket win or lose.

There are two types of people: Those with principles and those without.