The communism/ Old yugoslavia(and others) thread

[Stingray34]

Nice Yugo combination.

She has one of these in our room

A big one. And we have a dog called Tito.

 

[Martin]

She has one of these in our room

A big one. And we have a dog called Tito.

Lol. I know a community of ex-yugoslavs in my hometown, most of them live here for more then 20yrs, and they pretend like as if Yougoslava never quit. A group of friends from Croatia, Bosnia, Serbia a and I hope I'm not wrong, one guy is Kosovo Albanian, or at least he's from Albania itself.
But the same goes for old Czechoslovakia - we still have common tv-shows, if we meet somewhere outside our countries, somehow we feel to belong together, in fact, Slovakia has never quit with czech culture - most of the books in the shops are in czech (it is not necessary to translate, we understand czech perfectly), movies are in czech... and happy for that.

 

[zigzag wanderer]

Always nice to see two countries go their separate ways without the nationalist hatred BS. Unfortunately Czechs and Slovaks are a relatively rare example (and even then I assume there must be some fringe loonies who do hate the other side).

Even within the Czech Republic there is (I believe) a TINY minority who would like the Czech Republic split between the western Czech half (Bohemia) and the eastern half (Moravia).

From my experience of living in the Czech Republic I can say there is no chance of any violence - mainly because neither the Czechs or the Moravians would ever do anything that might disrupt beer deliveries

 

[Fus087]

Yeah. Didn't they settle their border issue by a vote or something?

Or am I confusing it with something else...?

Probably confusing it with something else. The Czech-Slovak border has been the same for centuries.

 

[oldborn]

RedheadDane is a girl!

Interesting how people can play that "not understand" game. In ex Yugoslavia (i hate even mention that name) we have learned all major languages, writers, letters etc. in school, so i understand Slovenian, and Macedonian very well, but can not speak very well.
I learned even ćirilic letter and can read and write well. I can not understand and write Albanian cos they were minority and therefore we did not learn their language.
I understand Czech, Slovak, Polish (even they are so confused when i speak Croatian, and some insist to speak English, cos they are thinking i am Russian)

@personal where are you from? red star is same as svastika

@RedheadDane I got it know, i was following yours "settle" word but post above

 

[rickshaw]

@personal where are you from? red star is same as svastika

@RedheadDane I got it know, i was following yours "settle" word but post above

Not for everyone!!

 

[slim charles]

Same here.
Too many bad connotations.

Red Star Belgrade European champions 1991!
and now, one of the sorriest teams in europe

also, billy bragg had an uncle who once played in red star belgrade

 

[RedheadDane]

Probably confusing it with something else. The Czech-Slovak border has been the same for centuries.

What about when it was one country? Until quite recently...

 

[personal]

Red Star Belgrade European champions 1991!
and now, one of the sorriest teams in europe

Who cares?

also, billy bragg had an uncle who once played in red star belgrade

Again, who cares?

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

For peoples in Eastern Europe, that is. Those who suffered under that symbol until recently.

But, this is bicycling forum, so...

What do you people think, who is the best cyclist from one of the countries that TV commentators get confused about?

Depends who you are and what your experience was. I know plenty of people who actually had the best times of their lives under Communism and have had an absolutely terrible time since 1989. You only have to wander around Bucharest, Warsaw, Belgrade, or go to any village or town and ask those left behind.

There is a huge amount of nostalgia (rightly or wrongly) for the past. There are many people who would look at the havoc and destruction wrought on Yugoslavia by Tito's successors like Tudjman, Milosevic, etc and think that Tito was not as bad as either what preceded him or what followed him.

So while the red star maybe offensive to you, to other people it isn't.

 

[Martin]

@RedheadDane: There was never any real border issue between Czechs and Slovaks, the major part of the border is defined by a Carpathian ridge sice Austro-Hungarian empire.

@Craig: Well, we both understand each other very well, but because there is less slovak culture in Czech republic, some people (especially kids, in the case of adults it's more "pretend to") don't understand slovak very well. In Slovakia you get familiar with czech language since your birth, in fact even Eurosport is broadcasted here in czech and not in slovak - and the commentators speak about both czech and slovak cyclists, as we were still one country

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

What about when it was one country? Until quite recently...

The Velvet Divorce is quite well documented, as far as I recall they used the existing internal borders for the new international border ie if California were to become independent then using the current state lines as the border. The border tension was more with Poland over Cieszyn/Těšín, and about the Sudetenland in general. Klaus and other nationalists whenever they want to cause problems digs up the issue of the Benes Decrees.

 

[oldborn]

Depends who you are and what your experience was. I know plenty of people who actually had the best times of their lives under Communism and have had an absolutely terrible time since 1989. You only have to wander around Bucharest, Warsaw, Belgrade, or go to any village or town and ask those left behind.

There is a huge amount of nostalgia (rightly or wrongly) for the past. There are many people who would look at the havoc and destruction wrought on Yugoslavia by Tito's successors like Tudjman, Milosevic, etc and think that Tito was not as bad as either what preceded him or what followed him.

So while the red star maybe offensive to you, to other people it isn't.

Dude are you working for some Institute, you are so wrong about understanding those issue, sorry but
Hey why do not you take a visa and move to North Korea, i am sure that you are going to have great time there if loving communism

P.S. Send us a post card

 

[slim charles]

Dude are you working for some Institute, you are so wrong about understanding those issue, sorry but
Hey why do not you take a visa and move to North Korea, i am sure that you are going to have great time there if loving communism

P.S. Send us a post card

what exactly is so terribly wrong about what he said?

 

[oldborn]

what exactly is so terribly wrong about what he said?

Where do you want me to start in 17th or 18th century
You are so passionate about FC Red Star, take a look at this video from early 90s and tell me what is wrong with that?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcu6K_3jitc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IbAXlxUniA&feature=related

Dinamo Zagreb (Croatia)-FC Red Star (Serbia) 13.05.1990. (since in Jugoslavia). Someone thinks that things has started with that clash.
You will see what people think about Jugoslavia at that time

 

[Libertine Seguros]

The cultural phenomenon of "Ostalgie" in the former DDR is well-documented. There are many people who hark back to the days of Communism, mostly with rose-tinted spectacles. This obviously varies wildly from country to country. But remember, not everybody's experience with the end of communism was as violent or bloody as Yugoslavia's, and not everybody's experience under it was as turbulent either.

There are many valid reasons why you could argue life is better now than under Communism. But that doesn't mean everybody has to agree with those reasons.

 

[oldborn]

The cultural phenomenon of "Ostalgie" in the former DDR is well-documented. There are many people who hark back to the days of Communism, mostly with rose-tinted spectacles. This obviously varies wildly from country to country. But remember, not everybody's experience with the end of communism was as violent or bloody as Yugoslavia's, and not everybody's experience under it was as turbulent either.

There are many valid reasons why you could argue life is better now than under Communism. But that doesn't mean everybody has to agree with those reasons.

I am just saying that communism is evil as NSDP party. You will find people who will tell you that life in Germany since 1933-1945, was great.
Dude even now there is people who will die for al-Assad or Gaddafi
Brain washing, propaganda, gulags etc is allways dictators "must have" and it is not simple to understand.
Stockholm syndrome, maybe
But please do not trying to convince me that communism was great

Foreign countries (US, GB, France etc) had their chance to react before, they did not, IMHO cos they do not understand those issues or do not care, same as they do not understand Middle east, North africa or Afghanistan.

Balkans Dude, Balkans!

Let s talk about cycling

 

[Anonymous]

Where do you want me to start in 17th or 18th century
You are so passionate about FC Red Star, take a look at this video from early 90s and tell me what is wrong with that?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcu6K_3jitc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IbAXlxUniA&feature=related

Dinamo Zagreb (Croatia)-FC Red Star (Serbia) 13.05.1990. (since in Jugoslavia). Someone thinks that things has started with that clash.
You will see what people think about Jugoslavia at that time

Was it this game that "Boban the great" kick an yugoslav polizia

 

[slim charles]

Where do you want me to start in 17th or 18th century
You are so passionate about FC Red Star, take a look at this video from early 90s and tell me what is wrong with that?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcu6K_3jitc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IbAXlxUniA&feature=related

Dinamo Zagreb (Croatia)-FC Red Star (Serbia) 13.05.1990. (since in Jugoslavia). Someone thinks that things has started with that clash.
You will see what people think about Jugoslavia at that time

he said that not everyone sees red star and communism the same. he didn't, and neither did i, say that communism is good, or anything like that.
and yes, not everyone feels the same about red star [the symbol, not football club] and communism. there are those who are nostalgic about those times, because people lived better then. [not saying that i share that opinion]. for a lot of people, 90's were far worse than 80's.

Was it this game that "Boban the great" kick an yugoslav polizia

yep

 

[oldborn]

Was it this game that "Boban the great" kick an yugoslav polizia

You are so wright, at 0:16 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAt2oIJ8Lec

That was hell of a match How do you now that?

 

[oldborn]

he said that not everyone sees red star and communism the same. he didn't, and neither did i, say that communism is good, or anything like that.
and yes, not everyone feels the same about red star [the symbol, not football club] and communism. there are those who are nostalgic about those times, because people lived better then. [not saying that i share that opinion]. for a lot of people, 90's were far worse than 80's.
yep

Understand, everything is cool charles

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I am just saying that communism is evil as NSDP party. You will find people who will tell you that life in Germany since 1933-1945, was great.
Dude even now there is people who will die for al-Assad or Gaddafi
Brain washing, propaganda, gulags etc is allways dictators "must have" and it is not simple to understand.
Stockholm syndrome, maybe
But please do not trying to convince me that communism was great

Foreign countries (US, GB, France etc) had their chance to react before, they did not, IMHO cos they do not understand those issues or do not care, same as they do not understand Middle east, North africa or Afghanistan.

Balkans Dude, Balkans!

Let s talk about cycling

But I'm not saying that Communism was great (notwithstanding that we never had "true" Communism in the Marxist sense, since the "Socialist phase of development" is supposed to consist of the "Dictatorship of the Proletariat" followed by the state withering away to true Communism, but we never got past the dictatorship part at any point, and dictatorships, well, they're the same, whether left right or centre). I'm saying that not everybody agrees that it was terrible.

I'm not saying that I think it was better in Eastern Europe before 1989. I'm saying that there are people in Eastern Europe who think it was. You disagree with them, and that's fine, you have very good reasons for it, reasons I accept and understand. I'm not saying you're wrong to disagree with them, because you're not.

But those people exist. This is all that both I and MJM are saying. These people exist. Not that we sympathise with them. Not that they're right. Just that they exist.

Edit: OK, saw your comment above, so no need for us to be too rabid, don't take this too harshly!

 

[Anonymous]

You are so wright, at 0:16 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAt2oIJ8Lec

That was hell of a match How do you now that?

Boban was a player i admire.

 

[oldborn]

But I'm not saying that Communism was great (notwithstanding that we never had "true" Communism in the Marxist sense, since the "Socialist phase of development" is supposed to consist of the "Dictatorship of the Proletariat" followed by the state withering away to true Communism, but we never got past the dictatorship part at any point, and dictatorships, well, they're the same, whether left right or centre).

Well that was high school 3rd grade lecture, i sucks in Marxism cos it is "ideology of envy". Do you know why we had not real communism? Cos communist always found someone to eliminate on and on.

I'm saying that not everybody agrees that it was terrible

True

I'm not saying that I think it was better in Eastern Europe before 1989. I'm saying that there are people in Eastern Europe who think it was. You disagree with them, and that's fine, you have very good reasons for it, reasons I accept and understand. I'm not saying you're wrong to disagree with them, because you're not.

But those people exist. This is all that both I and MJM are saying. These people exist. Not that we sympathise with them. Not that they're right. Just that they exist.

Edit: OK, saw your comment above, so no need for us to be too rabid, don't take this too harshly!

Dude, there is still people who are very nostalgic towards reds and their politics. There is a law here which prohibited wearing svastika and all others symbols of nazism. But there is no law for wearing red star, and other symbols of communism, while communsim killed and jail people for 45 years.
It is same ****.
Great book "The Black Book of Communism" people should read it and take the fact that nazism killed aprox 25 million people, while reds killed aprox 100 million people.
We cool

P.S. What Sagan has to do with reds?

 

[personal]

Depends who you are and what your experience was. I know plenty of people who actually had the best times of their lives under Communism and have had an absolutely terrible time since 1989. You only have to wander around Bucharest, Warsaw, Belgrade, or go to any village or town and ask those left behind.

There is a huge amount of nostalgia (rightly or wrongly) for the past. There are many people who would look at the havoc and destruction wrought on Yugoslavia by Tito's successors like Tudjman, Milosevic, etc and think that Tito was not as bad as either what preceded him or what followed him.

So while the red star maybe offensive to you, to other people it isn't.

You're right about everything except about who brought destruction to Yugoslavia and its peoples. It's Milosevic and serbian nationalism.
You are forgetting that he started whole thing years before other republics of Yu even had non-communist goverments.

Soldiers with red stars on the caps were killing my and other peoples in the 1990-ties same as in 1940-ties so I disike the thing for a good reason. Even though I am aware of the fact that many lived decently during communist years.
And nostalgia is mostly thing of longing for ones youth. When you are 60 you will remember your 20-ties fondly even if you then worked in the coal mine.

But, we are seriously digressing. Maybe mods should move this tread to Cafe?