The Conspiracy Line

May 3, 2010
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Tinfoil hats at the ready...

I've seen it alleged that Armstrong as well as being able to make his own positive tests vanish, was also able to make his rivals test positive.

That he was behind:

Mayo
Pantani
Contador
Landis
Hamilton

testing positive.

My question is this - if Armstrong was so powerful and so able to get his rivals popped then why on earth didn't he have Ullrich or Basso popped before 2006.

Ullrich, although a fat feckless cake lover, was always going to be more of a challenge to the Uniballer than Pantani, or Mayo.

It seems bizarre that he would spend his time making rivals who were not really a threat test hot, while not trying to get rivals who were a threat to test hot.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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assumption they were a threat is amiss.

Bassim in 2005 p'raps. Or was it 2004, the year Armstrong got in his head about his mom and cancer and telling him he would do all he could for him.

Basso was the only chance of beating Armstrong during the reign. But he had him cuckolded like a Princess Di or Fergie
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Mrs John Murphy said:
Tinfoil hats at the ready...

I've seen it alleged that Armstrong as well as being able to make his own positive tests vanish, was also able to make his rivals test positive.

That he was behind:

Mayo
Pantani
Contador
Landis
Hamilton

testing positive.

My question is this - if Armstrong was so powerful and so able to get his rivals popped then why on earth didn't he have Ullrich or Basso popped before 2006.

Ullrich, although a fat feckless cake lover, was always going to be more of a challenge to the Uniballer than Pantani, or Mayo.

It seems bizarre that he would spend his time making rivals who were not really a threat test hot, while not trying to get rivals who were a threat to test hot.
You could think of it in terms of Legacy Building.
Hein may have pointed out that the battles with Ulrich were the ultimate icing on Lance's legacy. Having Ulrich test positive would have backfired negatively on Lance's legacy.

Also, the first three you mention are all mediterraneans. Framing mediterraneans is low-risk viz. will not raise many eyebrows because everybody already knows how dirty those countries are.

The other two are Americans. I assume Floyd taking the TdF crown in 2006 was somewhat of an inconvenience to Lance's legacy.
With Tyler I'm not sure.

In any case, imo it's not unthinkable that Ulrich was deliberately left in peace, while the others got popped deliberately (target testing, or even spiking).
 
Mar 13, 2009
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I thought that too. He needed a rival.

FL was inconvenient. Too easy to win the Tour, can abrogate the unique/novel quality.

If Armstrong was for cancer, why were Sebastian Joly and Matt Wilson never offered a ride on his teams. Both had suffered cancer. I think there is one other currently too(not fignon)
 
Oct 16, 2012
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Another thought: the German BDR is one of the bigger (and therefore wealthier) federations. Assume, that its influence inside the UCI wasn’t neglectable back then..
 
Jul 9, 2010
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Mrs John Murphy said:
Tinfoil hats at the ready...

I've seen it alleged that Armstrong as well as being able to make his own positive tests vanish, was also able to make his rivals test positive.

That he was behind:

Mayo
Pantani
Contador
Landis
Hamilton

testing positive.

My question is this - if Armstrong was so powerful and so able to get his rivals popped then why on earth didn't he have Ullrich or Basso popped before 2006.
Because he had no beef with them? Armstrong is very vindictive: cross him once, and you'll have a life-time sworn enemy. Hamilton and Landis deserted him or his team, Contador was a direct threat to him at Astana, and he had the Ventoux-debacle with Pantani. Not sure about Mayo. He may just not have liked the guy.

Again, just guessing...
 
Apr 21, 2012
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sniper said:
You could think of it in terms of Legacy Building.
Hein may have pointed out that the battles with Ulrich were the ultimate icing on Lance's legacy. Having Ulrich test positive would have backfired negatively on Lance's legacy.

Also, the first three you mention are all mediterraneans. Framing mediterraneans is low-risk viz. will not raise many eyebrows because everybody already knows how dirty those countries are.

The other two are Americans. I assume Floyd taking the TdF crown in 2006 was somewhat of an inconvenience to Lance's legacy.
With Tyler I'm not sure.

In any case, imo it's not unthinkable that Ulrich was deliberately left in peace, while the others got popped deliberately (target testing, or even spiking).
Hamilton's positive is the weirdest, as he claims he never did any homologous transfusion. After '04 DL Ventoux ITT, Armstrong was pretty angry...
IMO Hamilton test was made by Verbruggen for Armstrong, as Landis' test was. Not so sure for Heras or Mayo. Pantani no way, EPO abuse.
 
The idea of Armstrong having the clout to get Pantani popped in 1999 before he'd "won" his first tour is absurd, surely? At that point he was a just another tour contender (albeit with a story to tell). Yeah, he got his '99 positive covered up but I've always thought that sort of thing was fairly commonplace back then.
 
blackcat said:
assumption they were a threat is amiss.

Bassim in 2005 p'raps. Or was it 2004, the year Armstrong got in his head about his mom and cancer and telling him he would do all he could for him.

Basso was the only chance of beating Armstrong during the reign. But he had him cuckolded like a Princess Di or Fergie
I think 2005 and Ivan was very grateful for it.
 
Mrs John Murphy said:
Tinfoil hats at the ready...

I've seen it alleged that Armstrong as well as being able to make his own positive tests vanish, was also able to make his rivals test positive.

That he was behind:

Mayo
Pantani
Contador
Landis
Hamilton

testing positive.

My question is this - if Armstrong was so powerful and so able to get his rivals popped then why on earth didn't he have Ullrich or Basso popped before 2006.

Ullrich, although a fat feckless cake lover, was always going to be more of a challenge to the Uniballer than Pantani, or Mayo.

It seems bizarre that he would spend his time making rivals who were not really a threat test hot, while not trying to get rivals who were a threat to test hot.
With some teams having called for significant changes at UCI after the USADA RD, are we going to see an entire team testing positive in TdF next year or just a key rider?

(and no, I don't think Armstrong was behind any other rider's positive test during his regime)
 
Tyler's positive.
Back in 2006 they could not catch you on autologous too well yet. Huge scientific proof battle, and tyler might have won that.
Homologous, is something hard to deny once looking at the sample. Spike it, and there you go.
I believe more in spiking than in sabotage of BB's, although I won't rule that out either. It's too easy. Pass the old Fuentes assistent a sum of money to do it, and the next day the good doc has sincerely forgotten where the money in his pocket came from. Heck, you could send an "investigator" there, threatening to expose the whole place, UNLESS a favor is granted... Everyone in cycling knew about Madrid, but no-one acted against it.
Perhaps one time Tyler's body was rejecting the foreign blood, the other time it didn't. He may have been getting homologously diluted blood for a while. It takes one Fuentes trustee to mix things up.
 
May 3, 2010
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I guess the question is whether you think the Hamilton and Vino cases were blood bags getting mixed up, or conspiracy. I tend to view it as **** up rather than a conspiracy.

I think I struggle with the idea that Armstrong could ever have really had that much power, and that he could have orchestrated it. If it were true then it would suggest that the labs themselves are compromised.
 
Dazed and Confused said:
With some teams having called for significant changes at UCI after the USADA RD, are we going to see an entire team testing positive in TdF next year or just a key rider?

(and no, I don't think Armstrong was behind any other rider's positive test during his regime)
Didn't you get the memo? Doping in cycling is under control with only 2% doping. The Bio Passport fixed it. :rolleyes:

Unless ASO gets a conscience and brings back Patrice Clerc, it will be the most false negative Tour in a decade. The way the 2012 edition went, teams will be back on The Gear like it was 1995.
 
Aug 7, 2010
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If Armstrong had so much clout with the UCI, then why did he go to such lengths to hide, and disappear from OOC controls, as well as be so careful for in season race controls. If he knew he would never be 'positive' based on UCI assurances, he did not need to worry about anything.

Some seem to subscribe to the theory that he had some 'immunity' deal. That does not jive with me based on the elaborate cover-ups and schemes in the USADA report.

He may have convinced Hein that he was on the 'inside' of some other riders doping, and convinced the UCI that some riders were cheating and deserved a positive control.

Maybe we find out more, as the layers get peeled back, about the payments to the UCI, covered up tests.....I have a feeling that there is a lot more evidence in USADA's hands that will point to pharma collusion, testing results, etc.
 
Mrs John Murphy said:
Tinfoil hats at the ready...

I've seen it alleged that Armstrong as well as being able to make his own positive tests vanish, was also able to make his rivals test positive.

That he was behind:

Mayo
Pantani
Contador
Landis
Hamilton

testing positive.

My question is this - if Armstrong was so powerful and so able to get his rivals popped then why on earth didn't he have Ullrich or Basso popped before 2006.

Ullrich, although a fat feckless cake lover, was always going to be more of a challenge to the Uniballer than Pantani, or Mayo.

It seems bizarre that he would spend his time making rivals who were not really a threat test hot, while not trying to get rivals who were a threat to test hot.
Basso and Ullrich were relatively on good terms with Armstrong. There was little drama between them as far as I knew. Armstrong is on the record for simply not liking Mayo or Pantani. Of course with Landis, Hamilton and Contador his motivations were more obvious.
 
Mrs John Murphy said:
I guess the question is whether you think the Hamilton and Vino cases were blood bags getting mixed up, or conspiracy. I tend to view it as **** up rather than a conspiracy.

I think I struggle with the idea that Armstrong could ever have really had that much power, and that he could have orchestrated it. If it were true then it would suggest that the labs themselves are compromised.
Look at it from a different angle. The UCI is the only one with the authority to open cases. If Hein and Pat have dozens of positives in any given month, what is to stop them from opening a case as they see fit? Think back on Pat and Hein's attempt to suppress the Contador positive.

I am going to repeat this until I'm banned for it, but there is still some really, really special relationship between Hein, Pat and Wonderboy. They are still defending Wonderboy!

Understand that testing is wildly variable depending on the lab regardless of WADA certification. The tests themselves require a great deal of skill to prepare and execute, much less interpret the results.
 
May 3, 2010
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DirtyWorks said:
Look at it from a different angle. The UCI is the only one with the authority to open cases. If Hein and Pat have dozens of positives in any given month, what is to stop them from opening a case as they see fit? Think back on Pat and Hein's attempt to suppress the Contador positive.

I am going to repeat this until I'm banned for it, but there is still some really, really special relationship between Hein, Pat and Wonderboy. They are still defending Wonderboy!

Understand that testing is wildly variable depending on the lab regardless of WADA certification. The tests themselves require a great deal of skill to prepare and execute, much less interpret the results.
The peloton is very dirty - so it stands to reason that lots of the peloton must be testing positive and the UCI must be sitting on a lot of positive tests.

Now, the problem I have is this - the UCI leaks like a sieve. And yet the only attempted suppressed case I can think of is Contador.

(BTW - How does Armstrong make Contador test positive while the UCI attempts to cover it up?)

It's not that I don't think it is possible, but given how bumbling and incompetent the UCI are, I find it hard to believe that they could keep it secret for so long.
 
Mrs John Murphy said:
The peloton is very dirty - so it stands to reason that lots of the peloton must be testing positive and the UCI must be sitting on a lot of positive tests.

Now, the problem I have is this - the UCI leaks like a sieve. And yet the only attempted suppressed case I can think of is Contador.

(BTW - How does Armstrong make Contador test positive while the UCI attempts to cover it up?)

It's not that I don't think it is possible, but given how bumbling and incompetent the UCI are, I find it hard to believe that they could keep it secret for so long.
*While wearing the tinfoil hat*

Contador thought he was protected by the UCI, so they (UCI) had to act, so that AC thought they tried to protect him.
Wonderboy wants Contador to test positive
UCI spikes Contador
UCI keeps the positive secret
UCI leaks the postive themselves
Contador gets banned.
 
Oct 21, 2012
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As much as i think there are things that need to be investigated into the relationship between LA and UCI not sure i buy into the conspiracy theory that he made positive tests come out about his rivals.
From what i saw he always seemed to protect/or stick up for fellow dopers as he he did with Landis and Hamilton at least until they turned on him. I thought he was the protecter/enforcer of the Omerta, he didn't have to dob rivals in because they were doping as he was beating them by doping anyway - maintain the status quo. Could be wrong but just the way it seems from what i've read.
All of the riders named doped and got caught its not like any of them still deny doping! Although as pointed out to me earlier the Hamilton one is suspicous as apparently he didn't do blood doping yet still got still got accused of this..
 
May 26, 2010
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Mrs John Murphy said:
The peloton is very dirty - so it stands to reason that lots of the peloton must be testing positive and the UCI must be sitting on a lot of positive tests.

Now, the problem I have is this - the UCI leaks like a sieve. And yet the only attempted suppressed case I can think of is Contador.

(BTW - How does Armstrong make Contador test positive while the UCI attempts to cover it up?)

It's not that I don't think it is possible, but given how bumbling and incompetent the UCI are, I find it hard to believe that they could keep it secret for so long.
If you credit UCI with any intelligence they sat on it for a month to make it look to Contador like they were trying to suppress it then leaked it for Armstrong. Win win.
 
Benotti69 said:
If you credit UCI with any intelligence they sat on it for a month to make it look to Contador like they were trying to suppress it then leaked it for Armstrong. Win win.
That is a possibility. AC thinks UCI have his back, Pat withholds for month to make it look so, then the leak. Bam. AC gets some quiet time. We can't have anyone from nearly the same generation ruin the myth that is Wonderboy.
 

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