Let's not start about what is the definition of a joke. A good joke can often be offensive at the same time as well. The fact that this wasn't funny, doesn't mean he didn't mean is as a joke. It would be a much better world if everytime when somebody tried to be funny, it was actually funny. The problem here isn't that it wasn't funny, but that it was disrespectful and sexist. I can only hope the intent was different than the result.RedheadDane said:Bit of a weird joke if everyone isn't in on it.
I very much agree with this.Logic-is-your-friend said:Let's not start about what is the definition of a joke. A good joke can often be offensive at the same time as well. The fact that this wasn't funny, doesn't mean he didn't mean is as a joke. It would be a much better world if everytime when somebody tried to be funny, it was actually funny. The problem here isn't that it wasn't funny, but that it was disrespectful and sexist. I can only hope the intent was different than the result.RedheadDane said:Bit of a weird joke if everyone isn't in on it.
Sure, he meant it as a joke. Well, if I use the age-old trick of placing a bucket of water above a door, I'd also do it* as a joke, however, if it turns out that the victim has a very important meeting coming up, and therefore no time to change, the joke falls flat.Logic-is-your-friend said:Let's not start about what is the definition of a joke. A good joke can often be offensive at the same time as well. The fact that this wasn't funny, doesn't mean he didn't mean is as a joke. It would be a much better world if everytime when somebody tried to be funny, it was actually funny. The problem here isn't that it wasn't funny, but that it was disrespectful and sexist. I can only hope the intent was different than the result.RedheadDane said:Bit of a weird joke if everyone isn't in on it.
Well Lefevere has always been a bit of drama queen. Of course they will start.18-Valve. (pithy) said:I may have jumped to conclusions when I read her statement. Keisse's story also makes sense, so I have no clue as to what really went down. He could be telling the truth, in which case it's not even THAT bad. Stupid and incredibly sexist, of course, but not sexual assault. The difference between the two is huge, so I hope this gets cleared up fast, one way or the other. If he pressed up against her he's lucky that he didn't catch a beat-down.
Lefevere apparenty considers / considered (?) withdrawing the whole team from the race today:
https://www.hln.be/sport/wielrennen/patrick-lefevere-reageert-bijzonder-boos-na-uitsluiting-van-iljo-keisse-als-het-van-mij-afhangt-stapt-de-ploeg-collectief-uit-de-ronde-van-san-juan~ade23d92/?referer=https%3A%2F%2Ft.co%2Fxx85fcqWOB
LOL, yeah. This was probably the last time the team was invited to the race, though.Valanga said:Well Lefevere has always been a bit of drama queen. Of course they will start.
Or the last time Lefevre sends a team18-Valve. (pithy) said:LOL, yeah. This was probably the last time the team was invited to the race, though.Valanga said:Well Lefevere has always been a bit of drama queen. Of course they will start.
Showing off in front of your mates is great and all, but what Keisse did was at best Sexual Objectification (the act of treating a person as a mere object of sexual desire); probably closer to sexual harassment (bullying or coercion of a sexual nature); and at worst sexual assault (an act in which a person intentionally sexually touches another person without that person's consent).Flamin said:Since it's not clear if Keisse "bumped" her or not, taking him out of the race is a bit over the top imo. He tried to show off in front of his mates and did so in the wrong way. Since he's not known at all for this kind of behaviour, I think it's fair to qualify this as a stupid and tasteless act, nothing more. The media attention and that his wife and kids will see the picture, is a big enough punishment I think.
Or the last time Lefevre sends a team18-Valve. (pithy) said:LOL, yeah. This was probably the last time the team was invited to the race, though.Valanga said:Well Lefevere has always been a bit of drama queen. Of course they will start.![]()
Of course intention is very relevant.Davesta said:Showing off in front of your mates is great and all, but what Keisse did was at best Sexual Objectification (the act of treating a person as a mere object of sexual desire); probably closer to sexual harassment (bullying or coercion of a sexual nature); and at worst sexual assault (an act in which a person intentionally sexually touches another person without that person's consent).Flamin said:Since it's not clear if Keisse "bumped" her or not, taking him out of the race is a bit over the top imo. He tried to show off in front of his mates and did so in the wrong way. Since he's not known at all for this kind of behaviour, I think it's fair to qualify this as a stupid and tasteless act, nothing more. The media attention and that his wife and kids will see the picture, is a big enough punishment I think.
Or the last time Lefevre sends a team18-Valve. (pithy) said:LOL, yeah. This was probably the last time the team was invited to the race, though.Valanga said:Well Lefevere has always been a bit of drama queen. Of course they will start.![]()
It doesn't matter if Keisse meant it as a joke - the intention is completely irrelevant.
There's a victim here, as the police have agreed to, and that victim isn't Keisse.
I've got absolutely no problem with him being kicked out of the race.
Not in the legal definition & applicaiton of Sexual Harassment law in the UK. And clearly the Argentinian police work along similar lines...Flamin said:Of course intention is very relevant.Davesta said:Showing off in front of your mates is great and all, but what Keisse did was at best Sexual Objectification (the act of treating a person as a mere object of sexual desire); probably closer to sexual harassment (bullying or coercion of a sexual nature); and at worst sexual assault (an act in which a person intentionally sexually touches another person without that person's consent).Flamin said:Since it's not clear if Keisse "bumped" her or not, taking him out of the race is a bit over the top imo. He tried to show off in front of his mates and did so in the wrong way. Since he's not known at all for this kind of behaviour, I think it's fair to qualify this as a stupid and tasteless act, nothing more. The media attention and that his wife and kids will see the picture, is a big enough punishment I think.
Or the last time Lefevre sends a team18-Valve. (pithy) said:LOL, yeah. This was probably the last time the team was invited to the race, though.Valanga said:Well Lefevere has always been a bit of drama queen. Of course they will start.![]()
It doesn't matter if Keisse meant it as a joke - the intention is completely irrelevant.
There's a victim here, as the police have agreed to, and that victim isn't Keisse.
I've got absolutely no problem with him being kicked out of the race.
Lefevere is a wise and beautiful woman, decision of expelling him from the race is 100% right! The joke was not a joke, he crossed the line, and the punishment is adequate.Valanga said:Well Lefevere has always been a bit of drama queen. Of course they will start.18-Valve. (pithy) said:I may have jumped to conclusions when I read her statement. Keisse's story also makes sense, so I have no clue as to what really went down. He could be telling the truth, in which case it's not even THAT bad. Stupid and incredibly sexist, of course, but not sexual assault. The difference between the two is huge, so I hope this gets cleared up fast, one way or the other. If he pressed up against her he's lucky that he didn't catch a beat-down.
Lefevere apparenty considers / considered (?) withdrawing the whole team from the race today:
https://www.hln.be/sport/wielrennen/patrick-lefevere-reageert-bijzonder-boos-na-uitsluiting-van-iljo-keisse-als-het-van-mij-afhangt-stapt-de-ploeg-collectief-uit-de-ronde-van-san-juan~ade23d92/?referer=https%3A%2F%2Ft.co%2Fxx85fcqWOB
I think you'll find intent usually makes a world of difference. Like, between murder and manslaughter. Just to give you one example.Davesta said:Not in the legal definition & applicaiton of Sexual Harassment law in the UK. And clearly the Argentinian police work along similar lines...Flamin said:Of course intention is very relevant.Davesta said:It doesn't matter if Keisse meant it as a joke - the intention is completely irrelevant.
There's a victim here, as the police have agreed to, and that victim isn't Keisse.
I've got absolutely no problem with him being kicked out of the race.
Intent makes a difference in homicide. Not necessarily in sexual harassment law inthe UK - "A person (A) harasses another (B) if the conduct has the purpose or effect of— (i)violating B's dignity, or (ii)creating an intimidating, hostile, degrading, humiliating or offensive environment for B."Logic-is-your-friend said:I think you'll find intent usually makes a world of difference. Like, between murder and manslaughter. Just to give you one example.Davesta said:Not in the legal definition & applicaiton of Sexual Harassment law in the UK. And clearly the Argentinian police work along similar lines...Flamin said:Of course intention is very relevant.Davesta said:It doesn't matter if Keisse meant it as a joke - the intention is completely irrelevant.
There's a victim here, as the police have agreed to, and that victim isn't Keisse.
I've got absolutely no problem with him being kicked out of the race.
Maybe you should go to a nightclub once in a while, trying to get to the bar, from the toilet, you'll be rubbing your junk agains a dozen people. If intent doesn't matter, i'll just open up a lawfirm and set up shop right outside my local nightclub.
Good, that's the least he deserves.Vroome.exe said:I don't see how Keisse deserved all of this. He didn't even touch that woman, she probably saw the photo and decided it's a good way to get some money. So Keisse gets a fine, expelled from the race and a shame for life just because he made a joke by lifting one hand for a second. A simple apology should be enough. Now he's more humiliated than that woman.
It's a shame that Keisse and Quickstep didn't respond by making a visit to a women support group and make a donation to the cause. That would have been a much better outcome for all parties involved.Koronin said:IMO what he did is not sexual assault, however I do see it as sexual harassment. Was that his intent, no, however that is what it is as his act was. I just hope this is a wake up call and that this will prevent other men (riders) from doing something stupid like this in the future.
As for whether he is a sexist pig or not, only time will tell, as I'm not aware of other issues with him. However this act was sexist. Those who aren't sexist can make mistakes or make comments or do things that are sexist. There is still a long way to go.
Now there is actually a great idea.Logic-is-your-friend said:It's a shame that Keisse and Quickstep didn't respond by making a visit to a women support group and make a donation to the cause. That would have been a much better outcome for all parties involved.Koronin said:IMO what he did is not sexual assault, however I do see it as sexual harassment. Was that his intent, no, however that is what it is as his act was. I just hope this is a wake up call and that this will prevent other men (riders) from doing something stupid like this in the future.
As for whether he is a sexist pig or not, only time will tell, as I'm not aware of other issues with him. However this act was sexist. Those who aren't sexist can make mistakes or make comments or do things that are sexist. There is still a long way to go.