the doping apololisiim and rationalisation is pathetic and sad!

[sars1981]

this is getting crazy. it's obvious the majority public attitude to Armstrong is going to be "yeah so what, they were all doing it".
this is beyond belief.

first of all, surviving cancer and being a philanthropist has nothing to do with cycling. they are separate issues. if i committed bank robbery without getting caught, and in my later life became a philanthropist, that doesn't assuage my bank robbery. It means I might be reformed or possibly rehabilitated, but if i was found guilty of bank robbery, i should still have to face the consequences. The fact that i am an a$$hole who sanctimoniously denies my crime and persecutes my accusers is also incidental - that just makes me an arrant ******bag whom nobody should feel sympathy for if karma should ever overtakes me.

But what i really can't believe, is the forgotten heroe's in this situation:

All these lemming journalists and Armstrong fans seem to forget the forgotten heroes of this whole equation: the riders who didn't dope! I don't know who they are, but history will definitely not know either, and that is the tragedy! For what we know (or I at least), Cadel Evens could be the greatest road cyclist we have ever seen. I'm not saying he is, but the fact we will never know is itself the biggest tragedy here. And it's not just a little tragedy, it's a huge tragedy! Sport is about finding out who is the best isn't it? I mean that's why we watch? Well thanks to dopers, we will never know!! Yeah i'll pass on the sympathy for Pharmstrong. You've gotta be kidding me.

 

[Benotti69]

this is getting crazy. it's obvious the majority public attitude to Armstrong is going to be "yeah so what, they were all doing it".
this is beyond belief.

first of all, surviving cancer and being a philanthropist has nothing to do with cycling. they are separate issues. if i committed bank robbery without getting caught, and in my later life became a philanthropist, that doesn't assuage my bank robbery. It means I might be reformed or possibly rehabilitated, but if i was found guilty of bank robbery, i should still have to face the consequences. The fact that i am an a$$hole who sanctimoniously denies my crime and persecutes my accusers is also incidental - that just makes me an arrant ******bag whom nobody should feel sympathy for if karma should ever overtakes me.

But what i really can't believe, is the forgotten heroe's in this situation:

All these lemming journalists and Armstrong fans seem to forget the forgotten heroes of this whole equation: the riders who didn't dope! I don't know who they are, but history will definitely not know either, and that is the tragedy! For what we know (or I at least), Cadel Evens could be the greatest road cyclist we have ever seen. I'm not saying he is, but the fact we will never know is itself the biggest tragedy here. And it's not just a little tragedy, it's a huge tragedy! Sport is about finding out who is the best isn't it? I mean that's why we watch? Well thanks to dopers, we will never know!! Yeah i'll pass on the sympathy for Pharmstrong. You've gotta be kidding me.

the bank robbery analogy is way off.

You convince your sport and your sports media that you 'fought' cancer and beat it and create a myth. You tell them it changed you physically and you then proceed to become the most famous cyclists in the world using that illness on the back of winning the most famous/prestigious bike race. Then start telling people you are gonna fight the illness world wide and set up a charity to ask people to help you. But instead of it being transparent and obvious it is the opposite and you appear to live the life style of Hugh Hefner on the back of it.

that would never happen if you robbed a bank.

 

[sars1981]

lol ....... point taken I guess.

To be honest, I respect Lance for his cancer stuff. I mean no matter how half-hearted and self-serving it might have seemed at times, it still made the world a better place. The point I'm making is that even if Lance cured AIDS in his own back-yard chemistry lab, he should still have to pay the consequences for doping. You can't just say "oh, he was a good guy (which he isn't)" and excuse the whole thing. That is just weak.

 

[Berzin]

Let me ask this question-

How outraged should the American public be towards athletes who cheat when these very same people are fueling the vanity-driven anti-aging PED market to the tune of millions of dollars a year?

Anyone besides me find it ironic while watching the Tyler Hamilton interviews on 60 Minutes from their internet page that their lead sponsor is Viagra?

It has become less a matter of cheating vs. fairness and more about cult of personality. Barry Bonds was demonized for his character flaws, so he was bad. Mark McGuire morphed into a media darling over the years (he too wasn't exactly liked by the press for being difficult and unapproachable) and has been forgiven, absolved of all guilt and back in the game of baseball as a hitting instructor.

The people who want fair play in sports are going one way, the American public is going another in regards to the use of steroids. Kind of difficult to call people cheaters for using the same products some use at home to look and feel 10-15 years younger.

 

[Benotti69]

lol ....... point taken I guess.

To be honest, I respect Lance for his cancer stuff. I mean no matter how half-hearted and self-serving it might have seemed at times, it still made the world a better place. The point I'm making is that even if Lance cured AIDS in his own back-yard chemistry lab, he should still have to pay the consequences for doping. You can't just say "oh, he was a good guy (which he isn't)" and excuse the whole thing. That is just weak.

i dont see how anyone can respect his cancer 'stuff'. He has used it to deflect any personal criticism of his obvious cheating and i find that pathetic and disgusting.


He has also used it to earn himself a fortune from those suffering cancer or whose loved ones have suffered and that is the lowest of the low.

 

[sars1981]

Let me ask this question-

How outraged should the American public be towards athletes who cheat when these very same people are fueling the vanity-driven anti-aging PED market to the tne of millions of dollars a year?

Anyone besides me find it ironic while watching the Tyler Hamilton interviews on 60 Minutes from their internet page that their lead sponsor is Viagra?

It has become less a matter of cheating vs. fairness and more about cult of personality. Barry Bonds was demonized for his character flaws and personality, so he was bad. Mark McGuire morphed into a media darling over the years (he too wasn't exactly liked by the press for being difficult and unapproachable) and he has been forgiven, absolved of all guilt and back in the game of baseball as a hitting instructor.

That is a complicated question. It's difficult to say how culpable the "average person" is in his own erroneous perception of the world. I do not, myself, know - but I do think that we should start at the top in eradicating the lies. This means Armstrong, the UCI, anyone who has the most influence over the lie. It's the same when governments are responsible for misleading people. The average cycling fan is just taking what has been to presented to him at face value. That is not a crime. On the contrary, that is perfectly understandable. That is my opinion anyway.

 

[saganftw]

why would u hate armstrong for the doping when there are mothers shooting botox in their 8 year old children,its part of our culture faster,stronger,younger,prettier at all costs

the only difference is some ppl want to burn armstrong at the stake while cheering for their college team full of steroid puppets and the other part are not mentally challenged

in the words of george carlin: "people are gnikcuf dumb"

 

[Benotti69]

why would u hate armstrong for the doping when there are mothers shooting botox in their 8 year old children,its part of our culture faster,stronger,younger,prettier at all costs

the only difference is some ppl want to burn armstrong at the stake while cheering for their college team full of steroid puppets and the other part are not mentally challenged

in the words of george carlin: "people are gnikcuf dumb"

and if you dont take down the top 'stars' for doing it, it becomes acceptable for college teams go that route. Everyone sees a bonds, armstrong, maguire doped they think i got do that to get there.

So that's why Armstrong has to be done so those 'fockin dumb' people get to see it is wrong!

 

[saganftw]

and if you dont take down the top 'stars' for doing it, it becomes acceptable for college teams go that route. Everyone sees a bonds, armstrong, maguire doped they think i got do that to get there.

So that's why Armstrong has to be done so those 'fockin dumb' people get to see it is wrong!

i really doubt you start doping because armstrong,bonds,maguire do it...u dope because A, you want to be stronger,faster,more attractive B, there is stuff that can provide u better results

even if LA confess he was doping in prime time on national TV it will do nothing,ppl will continue to cheat anyway

im not saying LA should not be investigated,just that the culture will not change because some famous athlete was busted,if anything its good promo for those stoopid ppl who want their 15 minutes of fame so they can write a book later

 

[sars1981]

i really doubt you start doping because armstrong,bonds,maguire do it...u dope because A, you want to be stronger,faster,more attractive B, there is stuff that can provide u better results

even if LA confess he was doping in prime time on national TV it will do nothing,ppl will continue to cheat anyway

im not saying LA should not be investigated,just that the culture will not change because some famous athlete was busted,if anything its good promo for those stoopid ppl who want their 15 minutes of fame so they can write a book later

So what's your point then? "It's inevitable, who cares?"?

 

[saganftw]

So what's your point then? "It's inevitable, who cares?"?

exactly its inevitable,so why is pathetic and sad to rationalise and apologize doping?its not,to me it seems perfectly natural in depraved culture we live in

 

[Granville57]

i really doubt you start doping because armstrong,bonds,maguire do it...

You might want to rethink that.
http://m.prnewswire.com/news-releases/bonds-ramirez-armstrong-clemens-just-tip-of-sports-drugs-iceberg-says-ex-white-house-drug-spokesman-robert-weiner-120568759.html

Between 500,000 and a million youth use steroids annually. When home run king Mark McGwire admitted using androstenodione, youth use of it QUINTUPLED. When McGwire stopped using, his home run capacity plummeted from 70 to 30, and he dropped out of baseball. On steroids, kids have committed murders, other violent crimes, become schizophrenic, and committed suicide, as testified to Congress by parents.

 

[saganftw]

You might want to rethink that.
http://m.prnewswire.com/news-releases/bonds-ramirez-armstrong-clemens-just-tip-of-sports-drugs-iceberg-says-ex-white-house-drug-spokesman-robert-weiner-120568759.html

wtf? LA is protecting youth from taking doping by denying his own doping...and you want him go down? how dare you

anyway use of that androwhatever raised,i wonder how many ppl were using some other form of doping and just switch because macgwire admitted...i always thought ppl who want to dope will dope regardless of star athletes

 

[movingtarget]

the bank robbery analogy is way off.

You convince your sport and your sports media that you 'fought' cancer and beat it and create a myth. You tell them it changed you physically and you then proceed to become the most famous cyclists in the world using that illness on the back of winning the most famous/prestigious bike race. Then start telling people you are gonna fight the illness world wide and set up a charity to ask people to help you. But instead of it being transparent and obvious it is the opposite and you appear to live the life style of Hugh Hefner on the back of it.

that would never happen if you robbed a bank.

Well he did fight cancer and beat it. There is no myth in that part of the story. He made a crapload of money through cycling and endorsments alone, why would he need to rip anyone off ? Unless someone has evidence that he is pocketing the the donations. Next we will be hearing that he never even had cancer. I think the Armstrong hysteria needs to be reigned in more than a little.

 

[Darryl Webster]

All these lemming journalists and Armstrong fans seem to forget the forgotten heroes of this whole equation: the riders who didn't dope! I don't know who they are, but history will definitely not know either, and that is the tragedy! For what we know (or I at least), Cadel Evens could be the greatest road cyclist we have ever seen. I'm not saying he is, but the fact we will never know is itself the biggest tragedy here. And it's not just a little tragedy, it's a huge tragedy! Sport is about finding out who is the best isn't it? I mean that's why we watch? Well thanks to dopers, we will never know!! Yeah i'll pass on the sympathy for Pharmstrong. You've gotta be kidding me.

Well said sars...while all the squabling go`s on this is what people forget...the riders who`s careers are stolen from them and the tarnishing of those that are clean with the same brush as those that dope....Am I bitter?....dam right I am!

 

[sars1981]

exactly its inevitable,so why is pathetic and sad to rationalise and apologize doping?its not,to me it seems perfectly natural in depraved culture we live in

I find this to be a bizzare post. You note that we live in a "depraved culture" and at the same time imply that we should all feel happy and not register any complaint about it. How could a culture ever improve if everybody was contented in its decadence? Is this some kind of tragic-irony type thing?

 

[saganftw]

I find this to be a bizzare post. You note that we live in a "depraved culture" and at the same time imply that we should all feel happy and not register any complaint about it. How could a culture ever improve if everybody was contented in its decadence? Is this some kind of tragic-irony type thing?

no

i m just wondering why would you find rationalism of doping sad and pathetic (as Op stated) considering the culture we live in...i dont like it but im not surprised someone would justify use of PED

 

[Cobblestoned]

I guess the US people weren't that stupid and followed Lance and others like many cyclingfans, or like Germans followed Ullrich.
Enjoying the epic battles, while rising the warning finger with a warm smile. A warning smile.

Ja, ja, ja, ihr Lümmel. lol

I think American clinics' inmates make their people more stupid and clueless than they actually are. lol

 

[sars1981]

no

i m just wondering why would you find rationalism of doping sad and pathetic (as Op stated) considering the culture we live in...i dont like it but im not surprised someone would justify use of PED

I wouldn't say that I'm "surprised" by it. But i definitely think it's lowly, weasel-reasoning and wish people would think more about it.

 

[ItsWitz]

ryin' to make it Real?!?

Bikies & Bikers,

I've been a cyclists - and a race fan - since the 60's. And untill just a few years ago PEDs never even occured to me. I read - and generally agree - with nearly every post; even tho' many are direct oipposites. I DON't agree with the vicious manner which many are posted with.

But, the argument which makes the MOST sense to me is ..... why are we (feds; which is peds with one letter change) going after Armstrong et al - bad as they may be - when there are REAL Rats amongst us ... like the war profiteers, bank prez' & schemers, and poloticians & lobbyists???

Take the guys at Monsanto who are genetically modifying the worlds seeds or Haliburton who rapes our coffers of future generations money-for-war, or big oil companies who destroy our oceans while reaping huge profits !?!?!?

Sure, Lance is high profile but - even if he IS a drug user, at least he is an inspiration to people devistated with disease. If the bankers had some drug that would make them richer (and us poorer), wouldn't they take it!?!?!

I'd prefer a high profile athlete who inspires over a silent, degenerate, psycho-killer who cares for no one but himself.

Tryin; to make it real .... compared to WHAT?!?!?!?!?

Witz

 

[Hugh Januss]

Let me ask this question-

How outraged should the American public be towards athletes who cheat when these very same people are fueling the vanity-driven anti-aging PED market to the tune of millions of dollars a year?

Anyone besides me find it ironic while watching the Tyler Hamilton interviews on 60 Minutes from their internet page that their lead sponsor is Viagra?

It has become less a matter of cheating vs. fairness and more about cult of personality. Barry Bonds was demonized for his character flaws, so he was bad. Mark McGuire morphed into a media darling over the years (he too wasn't exactly liked by the press for being difficult and unapproachable) and has been forgiven, absolved of all guilt and back in the game of baseball as a hitting instructor.

The people who want fair play in sports are going one way, the American public is going another in regards to the use of steroids. Kind of difficult to call people cheaters for using the same products some use at home to look and feel 10-15 years younger.

No that is a bad analogy, nobody should care if you want to stay at home and take viagra, HGH, heroin, whatever it's your life, as long as you don't put yourself in a position to hurt others. Using drugs to cheat in a sport where money is being made is not the same thing at all. It is cheating plain and simple.

 

[the delgados]

Sadder still is holding on to a dream that never was and never will be attainable.

Much like North Amercia's "War on Drugs" anti-doping efforts in cycling are futile. As long as riders participate in an incredibly difficult sport that lavishes winners with fame and money, people will cheat.

It's pretty common knowledge that the Tour was created by a sadist who wanted a race so hard that only one person finished. Given that many participants were poor as hell and needed the money, they did anything they could to defy the odds.

Nothing has changed in 100 years.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

No that is a bad analogy, nobody should care if you want to stay at home and take viagra, HGH, heroin, whatever it's your life, as long as you don't put yourself in a position to hurt others. Using drugs to cheat in a sport where money is being made is not the same thing at all. It is cheating plain and simple.

Well said - people raking drugs for their health or lifestyle is very different from fit and healthy athletes who use products to enhance their performance in competition.

Sadder still is holding on to a dream that never was and never will be attainable.

Much like North Amercia's "War on Drugs" anti-doping efforts in cycling are futile. As long as riders participate in an incredibly difficult sport that lavishes winners with fame and money, people will cheat.

It's pretty common knowledge that the Tour was created by a sadist who wanted a race so hard that only one person finished. Given that many participants were poor as hell and needed the money, they did anything they could to defy the odds.

Nothing has changed in 100 years.

You must have missed Howmans comments today - as he is the first to admit that doping cannot be eradicated from sport.

Of course people will try and cheat. That does not mean that no effort should be put in to anti-doping.

 

[the delgados]

@Dr Maserati:

With all due respect, I think the imposition of arbitrary limits (lazer eye surgery ok; b-12 injections ok; blood doping bad, etc etc) needs to be re-examined.

I don't pretend to have all the answers, but one thing is clear: the rules as currently imposed have resulted in a lot of lost lives (rampant and unsupervised use of epo) and ruined careers (see: Wrath of Armstrong).

Yesterday I was speaking with a former NCAA football player who freely admitted to doping his entire university career. The stuff was provided by doctors. He said absolutely everyone (sans kickers) was doing it, and it will never stop.

I don't know why we continue to bury our heads in the sand and pretend that a) it doens't happen, or b) it can be stopped.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

@Dr Maserati:

With all due respect, I think the imposition of arbitrary limits (lazer eye surgery ok; b-12 injections ok; blood doping bad, etc etc) needs to be re-examined.

I don't pretend to have all the answers, but one thing is clear: the rules as currently imposed have resulted in a lot of lost lives (rampant and unsupervised use of epo) and ruined careers (see: Wrath of Armstrong).

Yesterday I was speaking with a former NCAA football player who freely admitted to doping his entire university career. The stuff was provided by doctors. He said absolutely everyone (sans kickers) was doing it, and it will never stop.

I don't know why we continue to bury our heads in the sand and pretend that a) it doens't happen, or b) it can be stopped.

Who is we?
You and I are in agreement on both a & b.

Lazer surgery, B12 - they restore what you have - Performance Enhancement Drugs, well they do as they say.