The effect of reduced teams on the Giro

[Red Rick]

Aight. Giro down for this year, Tour and Vuelta to go.

I've been thinking a little bit about how smaller teams have affected the races this year. And while the changes seems pretty big to me in the classics and some stages of stage races, I don't think I have noticed as much in the Giro.

Only 2 early breakaways lasted to the end, which were 2 of the 3 last mountain stages. Racing was very hard, but the amount of significant and tactical breakaways was pretty nonexistant apart from Chaves escaping on the way to the Etna.

Obviously there are a million factors at play here, and there were no real medium mountain stages this year, but I still found it strange. I had thought that smaller team would mean teams would spend their efforts more conservatively, breaks would get more room and more breakaways would win. Instead it seemed like the fights for the breakaway were so hard that wanne be breakaway teams were controlling each other.

At no point in this Giro was a rider caught out by having too few teammates in a situation where he should have them. Sure, Dumoulin needed them a few times, but that was in very select groups where teammates are more of a luxury than the norm.

Froome's exploits on stage 19, and the strength his team showed there, actually used very few teammates. Puccio, De la Cruz and Elissonde did basically all the bludgeoning work required to set up an 80km solo. Much of that is the unique properties of the Finestre though.

Obviously, the Tour and the Vuelta have yet to come, but I'm not that hyped for the 8 man teams anymore. However, as much as we've been laughing at the safety argument for smaller teams, no significant contenders crashed ou tof the race this year.

 

[Stella0596]

Commentators also proposed that the small amount of (serious) crashes can be contributed to the smaller teams. I don't know if that's true, we'll have to look future GTs to see if that actually holds up. Nonetheless, as many have said before it's always a good thing when there aren't many crashes.

For the sprint stages, you could say only two teams always worked to make it a sprint: QS and Bora (and maybe Lotto to a smaller extent). However, most breakaways didn't have strong riders in them, which is why few breakaways lasted. On that note, I did think a lot of teams underperformed this Giro and didn't show much. Trek en EF stand out most, and I also found that the continental teams didn't contribute as much to the race itself. I think the dynamics of the race changed when Yates became leader and MS was flying: I don't really think other teams knew how to respond to that. Then, this last week everything was turned upside down with Yates failing and Froome taking over.

 

[movingtarget]

I agree with what one of the team managers said at the Giro. With a full team or mostly full team it makes no difference.

 

[Red Rick]

I think this Giro maybe coincidentally we didn't see any situation where numbers made a real difference. There were no windy stages, no hilly or medium mountain stages that were ridden hard, and no high mountain stages had mountains all over and that required control through and through. The stage to Sappada comes kinda close, although that wasn't all that hard until Tre Croci either.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Too soon and difficult to say imo. Small things might pile up over a 3 week race, and could be enough for a contender to lose a minute (or 38) in a desisive 3rd week mountain stage. Or it may not have any effect at all.

 

[Gigs_98]

Top soon to say anything however if breakaway battles are now always like this because of 8 men teams I won't complain. Yeah they often weren't successful but the first hour of every not completely flat stage was always great because the fight for the break was so crazy. I also think that led to the fatigue in the 3rd week which again led to most of the third weeks epic moments. I mean if Yates doesn't crack and is on froome's wheel after the finestre we probably have a 50 men peloton with all gc favorites at the foot of Jafferau.

 

[DFA123]

This is a great post and discussion. I also think it's too early to tell. The dynamic of this race was one where the number of riders in teams just wasn't that much of a factor in the GC battle. It was the kind of race where having one or maybe two really high quality domestiques at key moments would have been way more useful than having a team full of seven or eight very strong, but not exceptional riders.

The Tour will be the key point to assess the change in numbers I think. With so many flat stages and relatively shallow gradient climbs, that will be where quantity is as important as quality.

One factor that could be related though is the lack of quality in the breakaways this Giro. Maybe most teams just can't afford the luxury of bringing a breakaway 'wild card' with eight man teams. Everyone is selected with a specific role in mind, and so the pool of potential breakaway winners becomes quite reduced in terms of quality.

 

[Climbing]

Incredibly relevant in classics, I’ll wait the full year to conclude something about GC.
After the Giro one could say it didn’t make an impact, but too early to conclude anything.

Edit: I might add that having one rider less, most top teams going for GC can't afford "luxury" riders.

 

[rghysens]

22 teams with 8 or 9 men doesn't make any difference. 6 or 7 will.

 

[Gigs_98]

Re:

22 teams with 8 or 9 men doesn't make any difference. 6 or 7 will.

This. Last year sky controlled the tour like never before while only having 8 riders for two weeks and the rider they lost was their most valuable domestique. One rider less has a small impact but teams can in almost all cases still do pretty much what they've done in the past

 

[hrotha]

Too early to tell. On paper, the effect should be small, but positive, but a single race is not enough to determine how it affects GTs.

 

[yaco]

I can see two impacts - Teams will be more reluctant to use a 2nd or 3rd year pro in a GT because they are every chance not to finish - At least with 9 rider teams the 9th rider was often an auxilliary rider and often used on a young pro.- It also makes it difficult for a team to have dual ambitions of GC and a sprinter which is hard to manage with nine man teams.

 

[barmaher]

It's a pity an extra team isn't invited.

 

[burning]

It's too early to tell but we have seen plenty of examples where a 8 men team completely controlled or dominated the race in critical stages if the top guys were strong enough in recent years. (2009, 2012, 2017 Tour, 2008 Giro, 2015 Vuelta) So, I was expecting a minor difference in terms of team strength, as the 9th guy's job is usually fetching bottles and controlling breakaways before the real action happens, and I think that job can be done by the 2nd-8th riders relatively easily if they share that load.

 

[hazaran]

No crashes! Clearly with 176 instead of 198 riders the peloton is now a very safe place. Time to get rid of those radios.

 

[Leinster]

Re:

It also makes it difficult for a team to have dual ambitions of GC and a sprinter which is hard to manage with nine man teams.

Who was the last team to even give that a half-hearted attempt? Tinkoff with Sagan and Contador I suppose, but that ended up being more of a demonstration of how not to win races.

 

[movingtarget]

Re:

22 teams with 8 or 9 men doesn't make any difference. 6 or 7 will.

Yes I think reducing it by two would have been another matter completely. Then team selection is much more important. Second tier sprinters and climbers won't be selected in that matter. The teams will have to be full of specialists with two of their best and most versatile domestique with teams of seven. Many teams would either leave out a sprinter completely or leave out a GC rider who wasn't a strong candidate for the podium and it would also probably mean the end of the TTT which is a good thing.

 

[Stella0596]

Re: Re:

It also makes it difficult for a team to have dual ambitions of GC and a sprinter which is hard to manage with nine man teams.

Who was the last team to even give that a half-hearted attempt? Tinkoff with Sagan and Contador I suppose, but that ended up being more of a demonstration of how not to win races.

Regarding this, I think Bora did a pretty good job with 2 guys in the top 10 and 3 stage wins for Bennett, when you consider he didn't even have a lead-out man!

 

[yaco]

Re: Re:

It also makes it difficult for a team to have dual ambitions of GC and a sprinter which is hard to manage with nine man teams.

Who was the last team to even give that a half-hearted attempt? Tinkoff with Sagan and Contador I suppose, but that ended up being more of a demonstration of how not to win races.

Many teams try to have a sprinter and GC rider in GT's - For example in this year's TDF, Katusha will have Kittel and Zakharin, Mitchelton Scott Ewan and A.Yates, Etix has Jungels and Gaviria, Bora has Sagan and Majka and so it continues - Though it's not always a successful strategy.

 

[Breh]

Quick Step sent a sprinter and a GC rider to every GT in 2016 and 2017.
Picking up about 25stage wins, 2maglia biancas, 6th and 8th for Jungels, 9th and 6th despite some broken ribs for Martin, 7th and DNF for De La Cruz.

 

[Leinster]

Re:

Quick Step sent a sprinter and a GC rider to every GT in 2016 and 2017.
Picking up about 25stage wins, 2maglia biancas, 6th and 8th for Jungels, 9th and 6th despite some broken ribs for Martin, 7th and DNF for De La Cruz.

Let’s be clear on that. QS sent a sprint train to each of those GTs. They also sent a guy who could follow wheels in the mountains and maybe spring an attack or 2. Martin especially was noticeably isolated every time the road tilted (and even when it didn’t when the whole team sat up and waited for a sick and suffering Kittel in the crosswinds).

When you split a team like that, one department or the other has to suffer. You can push for a top 10, you can push for stage wins, but you can’t win the GC.

 

[Breh]

Ofcourse one department is going to suffer. I agree with that.

I just think QS was pretty good at attempting going for both, especially given how limited their GC men were.

 

[wwabbit]

Anyone know when was the last tine a GT was won by a GC man in a sprinter-centric team?

 

[Leinster]

Re:

Anyone know when was the last tine a GT was won by a GC man in a sprinter-centric team?

Lemond in 89? Or were ADR even sprinter-centric that year?

 

[rlntlssly]

Re:

Anyone know when was the last tine a GT was won by a GC man in a sprinter-centric team?

It didn't come off in the end, but Dumoulin came pretty close at the 2015 Vuelta with a team designed for Degenkolb.