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The "Evidence Based Â…" thread

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Sep 23, 2010
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The "Evidence Based …" thread

I have noticed that a lot of people when "putting down" other training ideas or approaches say they use an "evidence based" system. They seem particularly put off by others anecdotal reports as if such experiences do not constitute evidence of anything.

I guess I would like to ask exactly what do they mean when they refer to evidence based coaching or training (or, anything else)? (And, I suppose, different people might mean different things. I did find this link regarding one persons view.)

And, I would like to ask as to exactly what evidence they have that this (or your) approach is superior to any other?

Really not trying to be a troll here but to, rather, ask a serious question or two.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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To make a comparison, the definition of evidence-based medicine is "the use of mathematical estimates of the risk of benefit and harm, derived from high-quality research on population samples, to inform clinical decision-making in the diagnosis, investigation or management of individual patients."

Sam Leahey's website details the level of scientific evidence that is considered "high-quality research" (i.e., meta-analyses = level 1; randomized and controlled studies = level 2; and non-randomized and controlled studies = level 3; etc.). Most of the published studies on cycling performance are level 2 or 3.

Based on the long-held definition of evidence-based medicine, which goes back decades, evidence-based coaching should be coaching based on high-level scientific research. Anything else, such as proposed by Sam Leahey, is a load of rubbish.
 
Sep 23, 2010
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elapid said:
To make a comparison, the definition of evidence-based medicine is "the use of mathematical estimates of the risk of benefit and harm, derived from high-quality research on population samples, to inform clinical decision-making in the diagnosis, investigation or management of individual patients."
Thank you for your considered response related to the original question.

Evidence based MEDICINE is all about improving outcome, wouldn't you say? It involves more than just evidence of effectiveness as all drugs to be certified by the FDA have to show they are both safe and effective. Safe is a relative determination (no drug is completely safe) and effective is usually compared to placebo. Evidence based medicine is trying to help doctors go beyond their own limited experience to help them make better choices between many competing alternative treatments. It does this by taking a good look at the current literature critically. In some instances it may only make the determination that a certain treatment is more likely to be beneficial than do harm. From this article
The systematic review of published research studies is a major method used for evaluating particular treatments. The Cochrane Collaboration is one of the best-known, respected examples of systematic reviews. Like other collections of systematic reviews, it requires authors to provide a detailed and repeatable plan of their literature search and evaluations of the evidence.[24] Once all the best evidence is assessed, treatment is categorized as (1) likely to be beneficial, (2) likely to be harmful, or (3) evidence did not support either benefit or harm.
Sam Leahey's website details the level of scientific evidence that is considered "high-quality research" (i.e., meta-analyses = level 1; randomized and controlled studies = level 2; and non-randomized and controlled studies = level 3; etc.). Most of the published studies on cycling performance are level 2 or 3.

Based on the long-held definition of evidence-based medicine, which goes back decades, evidence-based coaching should be coaching based on high-level scientific research. Anything else, such as proposed by Sam Leahey, is a load of rubbish.
Well, I would like to think that Sam Leahey's approach is what it is because of the paucity of good research directly related to coaching and outcome. Therefore, he feels it is necessary to invoke lesser forms of evidence to most effectively use the method to optimize coaching outcome in the real world of coaching cyclists and triathletes (or anyone, for that matter).

Can you give me an example of some "high quality research" that directly relates to coaching ironman triathletes that if not followed would mean than a coach is not doing evidence based coaching?

Can you give me an example of some "high quality research" that compares two different coaching techniques, both meant to achieve a similar goal, that show a substantial difference in outcome?

Can you give me an example of any systematic review of the literature related to any coaching topic that shows one approach superior to another approach?

Evidence based medicine has a cochrane collaboration to help evaluate all the evidence and place unbiased stamps on the quality of the current best evidence. Does such a similar organization exist for evidence based coaching? If not, how does the coach eliminate his own bias from the evaluation process?
A 2007 analysis of 1016 systematic reviews from all 50 Cochrane Collaboration Review Groups found that 44% of the reviews concluded that the intervention was likely to be beneficial, 7% concluded that the intervention was likely to be harmful, and 49% concluded that evidence did not support either benefit or harm. 96% recommended further research.
You can be assured that each and everyone of those interventions had physician advocates who believe them to be beneficial, even those deemed to be harmful by the analysis.

What would a Cochrane-like analysis say for some of the interventions involved in cycling coaching? Going back to what such an analysis is supposed to do ((1) likely to be beneficial to outcome, (2) likely to be harmful to outcome, or (3) evidence did not support either benefit or harm.)

Strength training? Most likely the evidence suggests 3 and one would conclude more evidence is necessary.

Power meters? Most likely the evidence suggests possibly 1 but, more likely 3 and one would conclude more evidence is necessary.

PowerCranks. Most likely the evidence suggests possibly 1 but, more likely 3 (there isn't a single study suggesting worse outcome from using them) and that one would rationally conclude that more evidence is necessary.

In my opinion, few (if any) coaches use evidence based coaching as it is supposed to be used (the medical model). Instead, what most of them do is find some evidence in the literature that supports their bias and then claim they use evidence based coaching because they have some evidence to support what they want to do. If you have some evidence to the contrary I would love to see it. The lack of positive evidence to support an approach (in the absence of evidence the approach is detrimental) is not evidence against an approach. To assert otherwise is not evidence based coaching.

Evidence based coaches, imho, should be neutral regarding techniques where no clear positive or negative benefits can be demonstrated in the scientific literature. Of course, they will have their own bias based on lesser evidence as to what do to in such instances but they will realize that there is little or no scientific support for what they are doing and should be open to change should science appear that is counter to their current view. Until such evidence exists evidence based coaches should be willing to admit that the evidence for doing this or that is not very good and more research needs to be done. It seems to me this is the Leahey approach. To do otherwise suggests one really isn't an evidence based coach, imho.
 
The value and scope of 'evidence based' is dependent on the target group to which it is applied.

For coaching/treatment advice that is directed at a non-specific 'general' audience, the advice should be very conservative (based on historical evidence) so it is highly likely to provide benefit, and have low risk of harm.

When dealing one-on-one with a specific individual who is being carefully monitored, the advice can change from being conservative to more aggressive - depending on the evidence about the prior results for that person.

Any evidence based guidelines are constrained by the 'sample size & type' that is used to evaluate the evidence. A sample of 1 is considered anecdotal if applied to a wide audience, but it can be very accurate for that 1 person.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
 
Sep 23, 2010
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JayKosta said:
The value and scope of 'evidence based' is dependent on the target group to which it is applied.

For coaching/treatment advice that is directed at a non-specific 'general' audience, the advice should be very conservative (based on historical evidence) so it is highly likely to provide benefit, and have low risk of harm.

When dealing one-on-one with a specific individual who is being carefully monitored, the advice can change from being conservative to more aggressive - depending on the evidence about the prior results for that person.

Any evidence based guidelines are constrained by the 'sample size & type' that is used to evaluate the evidence. A sample of 1 is considered anecdotal if applied to a wide audience, but it can be very accurate for that 1 person.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
Thanks for your comment but you fail to even mention what you consider "evidence" to be used in an "evidence based" system, be it "conservative" of "aggressive". According to Elapid it can only be the best research studies using the medical model. According to Leahey it can be anything and everything. Where do you come down on this?
 
Mar 18, 2009
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FrankDay said:
Can you give me an example of some "high quality research" that directly relates to coaching ironman triathletes that if not followed would mean than a coach is not doing evidence based coaching?

Can you give me an example of some "high quality research" that compares two different coaching techniques, both meant to achieve a similar goal, that show a substantial difference in outcome?

Can you give me an example of any systematic review of the literature related to any coaching topic that shows one approach superior to another approach?

As stated in my reply, most of the literature on factors involved in coaching are level 2 and 3. There are no meta-analyses to the best of my knowledge. But I am sure you know the reasons for this as well as I do. The volume of research done in improving cycling performance is very low in comparison to the huge, huge volume of medical research. Medical research gets financial support and large case numbers. Research into any sporting technique will never approach what is possible in medicine. This is a limitation which will never be overcome and hence why coaches and competitive cyclists have to be satisfied with less degrees of evidence.

You should not be looking at research into coaching techniques, but techniques or protocols which coaches use to improve performance in their athletes. You will never have all the answers ... that is why many authors will write "more research required" because research nearly always results in more questions being asked.

The difference between medical research and cycling research is the case numbers. Medical research identifies what is for the general good, but there will always be outliers (hence setting the significance level at 5% in most studies). This is the 5% that do better or worse than expected. For cycling, the case numbers are so small that establishing what is for the general good for cycling performance is always going to be difficult. However, this is always going to be better than anecdotal evidence, particularly from the perspective of the coach. I have no issues with an athlete saying that this technique worked for me in the past, so I will do it again. But I do have issues with a coach saying that this technique worked for athlete A, so it should work for athletes B, C and D. What if athlete A is an outlier or the results from using that technique were confounded by anything from diet or weather to various factors on the bike? If any of these are the case, then this technique is unlikely to work for anyone else? That is why the level of research is important in determining the quality of information and its use as "evidence-based".

If "evidence-based" coaches are not using "evidence-based" techniques or being honest with their athletes that there are no published results for using this position on the bike, this piece of equipment, or this pedalling technique, then I would also be critical of these coaches.
 
FrankDay said:
Thanks for your comment but you fail to even mention what you consider "evidence" to be used in an "evidence based" system, be it "conservative" of "aggressive". According to Elapid it can only be the best research studies using the medical model. According to Leahey it can be anything and everything. Where do you come down on this?
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I'm willing to listen to various levels of 'evidence', but I tailor my 'noise-filter' to judge the likely accuracy of the evidence.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
 
Sep 23, 2010
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JayKosta said:
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I'm willing to listen to various levels of 'evidence', but I tailor my 'noise-filter' to judge the likely accuracy of the evidence.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
But, this gets back to the question of what constitutes "evidence based" coaching. Everything we do or know constitutes evidence. This goes back to the beginning of athletics and coaching. What is "special" about "evidence based" coaching or training? Coaches throw this term out all the time as if it (and they) were something special. Is it special or is it marketing?
 
FrankDay said:
...
What is "special" about "evidence based" coaching or training? Coaches throw this term out all the time as if it (and they) were something special. Is it special or is it marketing?
-----------------------------------------
Being 'evidence based' can mean / imply several things - some random thoughts ....

"I've studied and know the science of this"
"I've studied and know what top competitors have done in the past"
"I'm not just making this up by myself"
"Don't blame me if the 'evidence based' methods don't work for you"
"I can tailor the methods based on the evidence of your development"

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
 
Sep 23, 2010
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JayKosta said:
-----------------------------------------
Being 'evidence based' can mean / imply several things - some random thoughts ....

"I've studied and know the science of this"
"I've studied and know what top competitors have done in the past"
"I'm not just making this up by myself"
"Don't blame me if the 'evidence based' methods don't work for you"
"I can tailor the methods based on the evidence of your development"

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
I started this thread to ask what it meant when someone said they did "evidence based" coaching. So, what you are saying is it is meaningless because it can mean anything? It simply sounds more useful/important to say "I do evidence based coaching" than "I do coaching," a statement which also encompasses all levels of knowledge and techniques.
 
Sep 30, 2009
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evidence [ˈɛvɪdəns]
n
1. ground for belief or disbelief; data on which to base proof or to establish truth or falsehood

This to me is the most broadly encompassing definition of evidence.

an·ec·dote (nk-dt)
n.
1. A short account of an interesting or humorous incident.

The key here is that it is an account of an incident.

In my opinion, the difference between evidence based data and anecdotal data boils down to the degree to which you can dispute said data. Evidence based data emerges from multiple instances where variables have been controlled and accounted for. Anecdotal data tends to relate to one/few person(s), and/or happens to correlate with a variable, but cannot necessarily be attributed solely to said variable.
 
Sep 23, 2010
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twothirds said:
evidence [ˈɛvɪdəns]
n
1. ground for belief or disbelief; data on which to base proof or to establish truth or falsehood

This to me is the most broadly encompassing definition of evidence.

an·ec·dote (nk-dt)
n.
1. A short account of an interesting or humorous incident.

The key here is that it is an account of an incident.

In my opinion, the difference between evidence based data and anecdotal data boils down to the degree to which you can dispute said data. Evidence based data emerges from multiple instances where variables have been controlled and accounted for. Anecdotal data tends to relate to one/few person(s), and/or happens to correlate with a variable, but cannot necessarily be attributed solely to said variable.
But, what does it mean to be an "evidence based coach" compared to an ordinary coach?
 
Mar 18, 2009
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FrankDay said:
But, what does it mean to be an "evidence based coach" compared to an ordinary coach?

Maybe you should ask an evidence-based coach and post their answer :)
 
Sep 30, 2009
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FrankDay said:
But, what does it mean to be an "evidence based coach" compared to an ordinary coach?

The difference is in the methods you use, the methodology that you use to arrive at those methods, and how you implement changes for your athlete based on the data that you are receiving. Anecdotal methods are ones where the reasons for the implementation of the methods are generally based on the coaches individual beliefs and the use of cherry picked evidence to support those beliefs. Back to the example of "this worked for rider A, so I'll implement it for riders B,C,D, and E." An ordinary/anecdotal/whatever type of coach uses methods that he is comfortable working with (because he knows/understands them) and finding a justification to apply said reasoning to an individual rider. This is something that can work in a generalized sense when all a client needs is ANY template to work on, to induce a workload, and to track said progress. As coaches work with more specialized athletes that are extremely finely tuned, the coach then has to adapt himself to what best suits the athlete. It is the research of new and/or applicable methods, and figuring out what is usefull/useless and fine tuning the program to THAT athlete.
 
Sep 23, 2010
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twothirds said:
The difference is in the methods you use, the methodology that you use to arrive at those methods, and how you implement changes for your athlete based on the data that you are receiving. Anecdotal methods are ones where the reasons for the implementation of the methods are generally based on the coaches individual beliefs and the use of cherry picked evidence to support those beliefs. Back to the example of "this worked for rider A, so I'll implement it for riders B,C,D, and E." An ordinary/anecdotal/whatever type of coach uses methods that he is comfortable working with (because he knows/understands them) and finding a justification to apply said reasoning to an individual rider. This is something that can work in a generalized sense when all a client needs is ANY template to work on, to induce a workload, and to track said progress. As coaches work with more specialized athletes that are extremely finely tuned, the coach then has to adapt himself to what best suits the athlete. It is the research of new and/or applicable methods, and figuring out what is usefull/useless and fine tuning the program to THAT athlete.
That sounds cool. Could you point me to some research that the coach can use that allows him to individualize his approach to what "best suits" the athlete. Come on, all of these individual decisions are based upon a coaches anecdotal prior experience and not on any research as far as I know. It is why coaches sometimes have great success with one athlete and then fail miserably with other athletes that follow. If you can point me to some data that suggests otherwise I am anxious to see it.
 
Sep 23, 2010
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elapid said:
Maybe you should ask an evidence-based coach and post their answer :)
Ugh, I thought that was what I was doing when I posted the original question as many hang out here. I have noticed them being particularly quiet.
 
Sep 30, 2009
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FrankDay said:
That sounds cool. Could you point me to some research that the coach can use that allows him to individualize his approach to what "best suits" the athlete. Come on, all of these individual decisions are based upon a coaches anecdotal prior experience and not on any research as far as I know. It is why coaches sometimes have great success with one athlete and then fail miserably with other athletes that follow. If you can point me to some data that suggests otherwise I am anxious to see it.

Seriously Frank, you are being the kid that asks "why is the sky blue?" then you get an answer and reply with "why?". So you get a more detailed answer and you reply with "why?", and so on, and so on, ad infinitum. You wouldn't apply the exact same training template to a marathoner and a sprinter. And you wouldn't apply the same training template to a 100m sprinter and a Keirin track sprinter even though they are both sprinters. A Match sprinter and a Kilo rider also don't have the same training regimens either even though the disciplines are closely related. Theo Bos and Robert Forstmann, both sprinters when they rode track, wouldn't train the same as they have different morphologies and physiologies. If they had the same coach, and method A was successfull with Bos, then applying the same method to Forstmann would be anecdotal based coaching. Doing some testing, finding out strengths and weaknesses, doing some research on training with like structured athletes, and devising a tailor made program is evidence based coaching.

FrankDay said:
Could you point me to some research that the coach can use that allows him to individualize his approach to what "best suits" the athlete.

Depends on the athlete, the sport, and experience level. But it really involves looking into methodologies that have been tested, and proven to work across a broad range of the desired athletes. But you really need to open a scientific journal. Or just use Google. It's a good start.

If you still can't grasp the concept, then you really need to fart so you can get your head out of your a**.
 
Sep 23, 2010
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twothirds said:
Seriously Frank, you are being the kid that asks "why is the sky blue?" then you get an answer and reply with "why?". So you get a more detailed answer and you reply with "why?", and so on, and so on, ad infinitum. You wouldn't apply the exact same training template to a marathoner and a sprinter. And you wouldn't apply the same training template to a 100m sprinter and a Keirin track sprinter even though they are both sprinters. A Match sprinter and a Kilo rider also don't have the same training regimens either even though the disciplines are closely related.
We aren't talking about different events but how to determine what is best for different athletes training for the same event. In medicine we are just starting to get an idea as to how to individualize treatment based upon DNA testing. I simply don't see that in coaching where, as far as I can tell, we are still in a one size fits all mentality (although different coaches think different sizes fit)
Theo Bos and Robert Forstmann, both sprinters when they rode track, wouldn't train the same as they have different morphologies and physiologies. If they had the same coach, and method A was successfull with Bos, then applying the same method to Forstmann would be anecdotal based coaching. Doing some testing, finding out strengths and weaknesses, doing some research on training with like structured athletes, and devising a tailor made program is evidence based coaching.
Show me some studies that would allow me to do that. I haven't ever seen one.
Depends on the athlete, the sport, and experience level. But it really involves looking into methodologies that have been tested, and proven to work across a broad range of the desired athletes. But you really need to open a scientific journal. Or just use Google. It's a good start.
I've looked and haven't been able to find a single one. You say they exist. Point me to a single one.
If you still can't grasp the concept, then you really need to fart so you can get your head out of your a**.
I grasp the concept. The concept is that if someone contends that there is a special "more scientific" coaching method one should be able to point out what, in particular, makes it different from traditional coaching methods if someone asks or wants to learn.
 
FrankDay said:
That sounds cool. Could you point me to some research that the coach can use that allows him to individualize his approach to what "best suits" the athlete. Come on, all of these individual decisions are based upon a coaches anecdotal prior experience and not on any research as far as I know. It is why coaches sometimes have great success with one athlete and then fail miserably with other athletes that follow. If you can point me to some data that suggests otherwise I am anxious to see it.
Hmm, let me try.

When you coach an athlete, how do you approach things? Do you simply write out 12 weeks or so worth of training, then tell the athlete to rack off and leave them to it? Or do you check in with them every couple of weeks - or even more frequently if necessary - to see if your plan is working for them?

Secondly, if the training plan isn't working for your athlete, what do you do then? Why?
 
Mar 18, 2009
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FrankDay said:
Ugh, I thought that was what I was doing when I posted the original question as many hang out here. I have noticed them being particularly quiet.

They may be quiet because you are probably on their ignore list; or, as twothirds rightly points out, these discussions with you are often pointless.

I don't know the identities of coaches or otherwise who hang out here and whether or not they call themselves evidence-based coaches. However, Coach Fergie is obviously up-to-date with much of the literature so I think he would have very good credentials for being called an evidence-based coach. As I said, not sure if that's what he calls himself or not, but his grasp of the literature and his results on the track seem very solid.
 
Getting back to "what does evidence-based coaching mean", the discussion shows that it doesn't mean much specifically. Many thoughts about what it should / could / might mean. But they all indicate the need for more precise explanation from the particular coach.

Without the precise explanation from the coach, I lean to 'evidence-based' just being a 'sounds good' marketing label. What other labels of coaching style are used?

knowledge-based
experience-based
results-based
individual-based
hunch-based
intuition-based
etc., etc.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
 
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