The Fans Disgust Me More than Hamilton

[BroDeal]

This whole "burn the witch" crap on this and other boards, acting as though Hamilton is unique and deserves to be pilloried, is pretty disgusting, especially since it looks like he was using a substance with no proven performance enhancing effects and his excuse is probably legit. By the tone of various posts you would think that Hamilton personally destroyed the sport instead of the doping culture, which has existed since the beginning of the sport, the UCI, which has looked the other way and protected the doping culture, and the teams' support, which provides the encouragement and infrastructure for the doping culture.

Treating Hamilton like a bad apple is a way of covering up what we know (from IMs between Vaughters and Andreu, confessions by Manzano and Jaksche, and a little common sense) what teams run by Bruyneel and others are doing. Watching CSC steamroll the supposedly newly clean TdF last year like it was 2002 and then nashing your teeth about a washed up rider using an over the counter depression remedy because his mother is dying from cancer is a new low for the sport.

I do not like the doping more than anyone else, but this self righteous condemnation that is being used across the various cycling boards is not pretty to look at. And people wonder why riders will not admit that they doped. Reading the various posts makes it no mystery.

 

[Bala Verde]

+1

agreed.

If he used an antidepressive during hard times, while he was diagnosed with clinical depression, it seems to me that he might not been able to do otherwise. If that particular med contained an illegal substance according to UCI, which has, as is reported, no known positive impact on performance, I don't even know what 'the big deal' is about.

We all know that cafeine was on the Doping (read performance enhancing + dangerous to health after excessive intake) list as well...

The only 'weakness' I can discover is that he didn't report it to the authorities after he used it, and/or before he started racing, and/or that he tried to get an exemption for its use. All asthmatic riders are allowed to use sambutamol, so he might have gotten an exemption as well.

 

[cycutza]

This whole "burn the witch" crap on this and other boards, acting as though Hamilton is unique and deserves to be pilloried, is pretty disgusting,

I seriously doubt anyone posting considers Hamilton unique...and neither are his excuses. I really hope he gets better and for his sake, I actually hope this is an excuse and doesn't suffer depression - I'm with you all the way Tyler in your recovery.

I don't know the truth but fans are going to be harsh throughout this because the fans make such a commitment to the sport and follow cyclists and it really is a personal attack when one of the guys you've followed for years gets done and I'm not just talking about Tyler here. If the truth ever comes out (unlikely) and the depression is an excuse, then yep, adios, burn the witch and woo hoo...one less doper! Thats just the way this topic is going to be thrown around the boards.

 

[BikeCentric]

I agree that it's sad and unfair when individual riders are scapegoated and sacrificed when an institutional problem of doping in the peloton is likely the real problem.

However, in Hamilton's case he's brought the current ire upon himself with his own actions. People have every right to be upset when this sport gets dragged through the mud every damn week with doping idiocy.

 

[benpounder]

While I do believe the story told this morning on CN, I have to play devil's advocate.

The test was in Feb. yet it is only now that he is telling his story. That means he and Haven had an awful lot of time to find some non-perscription that would tuck nicely into a well thought out tale.

Actually that is not playing devil's advocate, it is getting infront of conspiracy theorists, Hamilton-haters, and ubiquitious Americaphobes. If DHEA had any benefit, the above construct might make sense. As it is, I trust Occam's razor.

 

[climb4fun]

Subterfuge

I believe DHEA is banned because it is a masking agent.

 

[BroDeal]

That means he and Haven had an awful lot of time to find some non-perscription that would tuck nicely into a well thought out tale.

The dude has been divorced for quite a while now. But as you say later, why in the heck would he be taking a low rent supplement like DHEA with little to no enhancing effects.

I believe DHEA is banned because it is a masking agent.

I believe you are full of crap. He took an easily detectable drug that is looked at in initial screening to mask another drug? Like you rob one bank as a cover story for robbing another bank? Yeah, that makes sense. But if you can find a link for DHEA use as a mask...

 

[benpounder]

The dude has been divorced for quite a while now.

Did not know that... just shows how dedicated to following Tyler I have been. When I wrote that I was actually thinking of her seemingly active participation in Tyler's last doping problems.

As an aside, I have no problem with a lifetime (or ten year) ban. It would prevent the troubles we see with Vino regarding caught cyclists who decide to un-retire at a convienient later date.

 

[benpounder]

One further note. Depression is a very ill-understood affliction, even to the well versed. I helped bury a long-time friend and college roommate five years ago. He was quite active, attractive, intelligent, and stunningly charismatic. But his depression slowly drove away many of the friends and family that could have helped him. For the life of me, I can not understand why he made the decisions he made the last several years of his life.

Tyler has made some rather stupid decisions over the course of his career. If he has been and is suffering from depression, far be it for me to second guess, or worse, his decision making process.

Ban him from professional cycling, but let the man be.

 

[Snake8]

This is tough. I know Tyler - not well and not making any claims to anything other than a casual acquaintance - but I always really liked him. On a personal level, he's a really good guy. Whatever wrongs he's done, he also has done a lot of good in his life. This is a guy who has always given back. I find it really hard to read some of the cynical sh!t people say on these and other boards. No one likes what dope has done to a sport we all care about, and those who cheat and get caught deserve every punishment that comes their way. That does not mean that we cannot be compassionate to those who get chewed up in the gears while the machine grinds on.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

People are being harsh, but it has mostly to do with his obvious lying past as much as his current situation. His confession today was also not very full. He directly and flatly stated he didn't take the DHEA for any performance reasons. While that may be true, why even bring it up? No one thinks the guy is innocent at this point for his past transgressions anyway.

As to your statement elsewhere that some 85% of cyclists during his era were likely doping, and many of those team were on systematic doping programs, I wouldn't doubt that. But we're not tossing the baby out with the bathwater here. Just some bathwater, when it all needs to be flushed (is that one too many analogies?!).

Tyler can at least somewhat make this right, or move on, by finally coming around and telling the truth about his dark past in the sport. For him to say that his past cycling is over, and this is a new start dealing with his depression rings hollow to me. A likely cause of his depression is the heavy burden he carries knowing he cheated and defrauded a lot of fans, and fellow cyclists. To say "they all cheated as well" may be true, but it doesn't excuse what he did, nor will not talking about his involvement and his continuing to deny it at this point help him out. The only way out of this for him is to come clean and admit what he did. If he wants to state it in the "every did it" context, that's fine. But he has to stop the lie.

 

[msjett]

Regardless of the reasons why he did it. It sounds like he needs help with other issues in his life.

The sad part about this is Hamilton will not be remembered for all the good stuff, he will be remembered as the person who got busted doping. A terribly sad way to end your career.

 

[BroDeal]

To say "they all cheated as well" may be true, but it doesn't excuse what he did...

Sure it does. There is a huge difference between 10% of the riders doping and 90% of the riders doping. In the 10% case, doping can be fairly considered as cheating the clean riders out of victory. In the 90% case, where the few clean riders are well aware of what is standard in the sport, doping is standard operating procedure and it is not cheating. It is like in Apocalypse Now where they compare murder in Vietnam to handing out speeding tickets at the Indy 500.

It is the fact that the more gullible of the fans were too stupid to figure out the obvious that does not matter.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

I can't say that I agree. No matter how you add it up two wrongs don't make a right.

 

[michel2]

i really hope that tyler hamilton doesnt care what we think think or say.i think we live in a very selfish and unforgivin society.most people will be quick to point fingers when something is wrong, no matter what cause.

for annybody who cares what i think i would like to say that what i read on cycling news sounds,..sound or beliveable to me,i cant believe that any well thinking pro athlete with a dopping past in a team full of members that have been linked to dopping would try to improve his performance this way. i think most well thinking humans would agree with me that their are better ways to improve youre perfomance but also that there are better times in the season to get hotted up.we are talking early feb.out of competion testing.

secondly according to bikeradar test showed 130 ng/mL of DHEA in his urine sample.were he was allowed 100. Now Iam wondering how much faster would that make him ?i say nothing.

apart from the acutal yes no question, i find it verry disturbing to read Rudy Pevenage's statement saying that t. hamilton has to pay the cost !out of the mounth of someone who's last team confesed to be be all users ( wel...we have to wait and read der Jan's book, so far he wants us to belive he's been clean,appart from when he goes dancing(( dont get me wrong i still love he ridding and think its a shame he fell down on that slippery roundabount!))

from what i read tyler hamilton is depressed and therefor retires from cycling.he leaves the sport as the current usa road champ and he can be proud of what he has achieved.

I hope he goes well.

 

[Weatherman]

bro et al

It's really simple, people are fed up with the constant stream of lies and excuses form these people, Hamilton, Landis, Schumacher do we need to go on.

In life if you do something, you're responsible for that. Facing up to those responsibilities and being honest and open with yourself if no-one else might stop things like depression. If Tyler and Floyd would come clean we'd at least have some scope to let them regain some respect for their achievement.

DHEA is on the WADA lists as a masking agent, what's being masked??

If Tyler has serious depression problems then I hope he recovers from them and gets the help he needs (been there done that!!), maybe facing up to the past, coming clean and breaking the Omerta would be a great way to start that process.

 

[BroDeal]

It's really simple, people are fed up with the constant stream of lies and excuses form these people, Hamilton, Landis, Schumacher do we need to go on.

One point I would make is what is the difference between the lies of Hamilton, FLandis, etc. and those who have not been unlucky enough to have been caught? Armstrong holds press conferences to claim that he is clean but we know from retroactive testing that he is just as guilty as Hamilton. Lying is a necessary part of a system that ostensibly forbids doping but tacitly accepts it.

And how have those who have partailly fessed up fared? Last I heard Jesus Manzano was working construction. What Pro Tour team is Jorge Jaskche riding for this year? None. No team would hire him. Does anyone think Sinkewitz will ever ride for a top team after he implicated team staff and riders?

Up until recently telling the truth has not been beneficial to the riders. It is only since the UCI and the race organizers started their backroom blackballing of people who embarass the sport that doing a partial mea culpa has been the smart tactic. Unfortunately for Landis, he did not sense the change in the wind.

If Tyler has serious depression problems then I hope he recovers from them and gets the help he needs (been there done that!!), maybe facing up to the past, coming clean and breaking the Omerta would be a great way to start that process.

Yeah, that will work well. Although I would love to see Hamilton and FLandis give a full account of everything that went down at Postal, I am not holding my breath. Look at how Armstrong and his fans have treated the Frankie Andreu and his wife. Even worse look at the crap Lemond has had to put up with for speaking the truth. Fans who can remain true believers in the face of multiple positives for EPO will not welcome what Hamilton has to say about their idol.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

I find it very disturbing to read Rudy Pevenage's statement saying that Hamilton has to pay the cost...

It's absolutely disgusting and insulting that Pevenage can make such a statement. A man of great sin freely casting stones. Rudy was one of the heads of the hydra at T-Mob when they had a systematic team implemented doping program for God's sakes. Now here he is, happy to spit in all of our faces and expect us to nod our heads in acceptance.

For those not in the loop, renowned anti-doping microbiologist Werner Franke has a lawsuit pending against Jan, and is planning on Rudy being called to testify and be faced with what has to be a pile of damning evidence, as Franke is an extremely thorough man who knows more about doping than probably anyone in sports.

Franke repeatedly tried to get Jan to confess following his implication in OP, saying that Jan had a child-like mindset, and would have had no understanding of what drugs they were "poisoning" him with. He even apparently confronted Jan to his face at one point, pleading with him to come clean and finger those around him. In the end Jan caved in to Rudy and the others instead, and now Franke is suing him for sport fraud and other matters (and says he will sue Rudy, Walter and the others if he has to). Franke also has one of the copies of the 6,000 page OP dossier and plans to submit it as evidence.

It's people like Pevenage, Saiz, Fuentes, Ferrari, etc. who are destroying the sport more than the likes of Hamilton, Ullrich, Valverde, etc. as they carry so much direct influence to riders, and are frequently the suppliers of doping products, and organizers of their use as well. Riders themselves must be held accountable for their own actions, yes, but the culpability here is very broad reaching.

 

[bikingbadger]

I read an earlier post about him having had two months to concoct a story of which medication to take. I don't think people are out of line to go on a witch hunt seeing as each doping case brings the sport into further bad light.

What I did was wrong and yes, I did know it [DHEA] was on the list of banned substances. I also knew that USADA could have shown up any day and at any time to test me. But, I was going through a very rough moment and I was desperate. I heard about it and I thought I would try it out as an act of desperation - Hamilton

If I read the above quote correctly he knew what he was doing, desperate as he may be. These cyclists that are so "passionate" about the sport don't give a rats **** about the guys that stay behind and are now subject to further inspection. There is a culture of doping in the peleton and this needs to be rooted out. So these "old" guard who are still steeped in their needing that extra bit of help from the needle should be given the boot.
We saw that with Ricco he did not even seem apologetic becasue he knew in two years he would be back and everything would continue as normal. Where did he get this idea from? I mean these riders should be given a hard time getting back into the sport for what they did. Two years on the side seems to be acceptable as these riders come back and continue their careers. As we see in this case that time of reflection is easily forgotten and they turn once again to supplements.
We shouldn't be soft with these riders but quite the opposite, they should be made to suffer so as to discourage others from doing the same. You give a lifetime ban for users of EPO or any serious performance enhancers and you will see that the riders will think twice about ricking their careers. Or if they receive a two year ban they should be force to work their way up the ranks again. A further two years racing in non-continental or pro-tour teams should do the trick.

 

[msjett]

Personally I don't care what he says about the others. If speaking about what he did to himself really helps him in the healing process go for it. If he talks about others he risks having more pressure on him, which quite frankly if you are struggling with emotional issues, having a whole load of people asking you how do you know this, when, why etc, it ain't going to make you feel better.

 

[BroDeal]

It's people like Pevenage, Saiz, Fuentes, Ferrari, etc. who are destroying the sport more than the likes of Hamilton, Ullrich, Valverde, etc. as they carry so much direct influence to riders, and are frequently the suppliers of doping products, and organizers of their use as well. Riders themselves must be held accountable for their own actions, yes, but the culpability here is very broad reaching.

+1 Random riders get destroyed by the system so the powers that be can say they are doing something about the problem. Meanwhile the people who are most responsible for maintaining the problem remain in place. As long as the team managers, DSes, doctors, and UCI oficials stay the same then nothing will ever change.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

I would love to see Hamilton and FLandis give a full account of everything that went down at Postal, I am not holding my breath. Look at how Armstrong and his fans have treated the Frankie Andreu and his wife. Even worse look at the crap Lemond has had to put up with for speaking the truth.

As long as the team managers, DSes, doctors, and UCI oficials stay the same then nothing will ever change.

I'm completely with you there BroDeal on both points. Actions speak louder than words.

And you're right about the omerta. But I can't say that Flandis made the "wrong" decision. I mean, he made the wrong ethical decision, but for his career, even you point out that Manzano and Jasche aren't racing anymore. They have basically been blackballed by the sport for speaking the truth and trying to help the sport. It's very sad. Then there's the situation with Koldo Gil, who was initially named in OP, but insisted he had nothing to do with it, and would submit to a DNA test, or any other test, to prove it, but this was rejected by the UCI, and no team will sign the guy.

We need a team that's the opposite of Rock Racing. A team that hires whistleblowers, and outspoken riders against doping.

 

[Mellow Velo]

I must be honest and say, I'm very confused, here.
I understand and agree with the whole "inbred systematic doping culture" being the root cause of cyclings woes.
I also agree that the arbitrary way in which testing will bring down one rider, while almost aiding another to attain fame and fortune.

However, as far as Hamilton goes, I can't agree that what I see as people's distrust of his word, merits the branding of "witch-hunt".
I can't help but feel, were it Armstrong who had failed a test in California, (of course, this would never be allowed to happen) people would use it to justify their stance on the man, over the past decade.
Those who have lived in denial, since 1999, would probably revert to the term, "witch-hunt."

I wonder would people point the finger away from Lance, towards the system, looking for culpability?
Somehow, I think not.

Hamilton has been unlucky. If people have an issue with him, particularly, it is probably due to his denial stance, post positive.
That was another mistake.
Sella, Ricco etc, have all suffered at the hands of the forum pundits. I can't figure out how Hamilton is somehow different.

 

[Weatherman]

One point I would make is what is the difference between the lies of Hamilton, FLandis, etc. and those who have not been unlucky enough to have been caught? Armstrong holds press conferences to claim that he is clean but we know from retroactive testing that he is just as guilty as Hamilton. Lying is a necessary part of a system that ostensibly forbids doping but tacitly accepts it.

And how have those who have partailly fessed up fared? Last I heard Jesus Manzano was working construction. What Pro Tour team is Jorge Jaskche riding for this year? None. No team would hire him. Does anyone think Sinkewitz will ever ride for a top team after he implicated team staff and riders?

Up until recently telling the truth has not been beneficial to the riders. It is only since the UCI and the race organizers started their backroom blackballing of people who embarass the sport that doing a partial mea culpa has been the smart tactic. Unfortunately for Landis, he did not sense the change in the wind.



Yeah, that will work well. Although I would love to see Hamilton and FLandis give a full account of everything that went down at Postal, I am not holding my breath. Look at how Armstrong and his fans have treated the Frankie Andreu and his wife. Even worse look at the crap Lemond has had to put up with for speaking the truth. Fans who can remain true believers in the face of multiple positives for EPO will not welcome what Hamilton has to say about their idol.

Won't disagree with any of what you written. There needs to be a concensus of riders who all agree to move on and that were some kind of moritorium on doping "might" encourage them to come clean. Can't see McQuaid going for that somehow.

I was one of the flag wavers but started reading too much and I'm now as cynical as many many people. Get rid of the lies and we might get somewhere.

 

[lostintime]

An Impossible Standard

The world is full of corruption, let's not forget that. There is much worse corruption(banking,politics ect.) and lying going on in the world than a cyclist using whatever so he may or may not go faster. Pro Cycling is essentially entertainment. They are used as human billboards, expected to appear as Mr. Clean and Perfect, but also expected to perform at their peak at all times or else you'll be replaced. That message is clear. It is an impossible standard to meet.

I am neither shocked or saddened with riders who choose to take whatever to help them perform. They are human, just like you and me. How many of these witch-hunters have taken a "banned" substance in their life? Weather these substances actually help them is another question though. The human mind is so under-estimated and powerful in it's role of how we function.... not only as athletes but as simple human beings day-to-day.

The modern day witch hunt is sad because it's like a broken record....are we fully conscious of what we're doing? It's not limited to cycling either. We're not content until we destroy the offending individual(s). The "offense" is completely arbitrary. It's a futile war though, because we are ultimately at war with ourselves..... taking it out on others.
Until we get our own house in order, can we help anyone else get theirs in order.

Will Pro Cycling ever be free of temptation and corruption? I don't know..... look in the mirror and tell me how's it working for you?

-cheers