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The FTP Passport

I think a lot of Clinicians are experiencing some ambiguity over Nibali’s performance to date. On the one hand, he is dominating the Tour, and making it look pretty easy. On the other hand, his estimated power values up the first two major climbs have been within the range that most observers regard as possible without doping.

Just because a performance is considered possible without doping, of course, doesn’t mean it’s possible for any rider without doping. DiLuca was not riding like an alien when he was nabbed at the Giro last year, but he was apparently performing better than he was capable of clean. What we would really like to do is be able to judge performances for individual riders on a standard appropriate to them. Welcome to the Functional Threshold Power Passport, an idea whose time has not yet come, but which I think could be a key anti-doping tool in the future.

To understand how it works, and what it can accomplish, consider the current blood passport, and the system that preceded it, the 50% hematocrit rule. The 50% HT criterion is a lot like the 6.5 watts/kg level (or any other level beyond which you believe undoped performance is not possible). On the one hand, it could penalize a few riders who have naturally very high HTs; this problem was avoided by having riders demonstrate this, then get an exemption. On the other hand—and this is the much more serious problem with the 50% rule—it allowed any rider with a lower HT to raise his HT with impunity up to 50%. And even worse, it meant the lower the natural HT, the greater the potential advantage.

The blood passport avoids these problems by determining a baseline value of HT (and some other parameters), then looks for values that exceed (or in the case of some values, fail to match) this value by a significant degree. This helps level the playing field, by judging any rider’s HT or other blood values in relationship to what it has been in the past. While a rider who knows what he’s doing can still boost his HT a little bit, generally it isn’t safe to boost it very much, and crucially, no rider has much of an advantage over another. If your natural HT is 40, you might boost it 5% to 42, but if your natural HT is 50, you might also boost it 5% to 52.5. There are ways of getting larger boosts, but still, riders with lower HTs are not privileged over riders with higher HTs.

As I see it, the same is true with drawing a line in the sand regarding watts/kg values. Depending on this line, a few riders may be able to exceed it naturally. But the much larger problem is that many riders may not even reach it with doping. What we really need is a baseline power value. It might conceivably be 6.5 watts/kg for 45 min for some exceptionally talented rider, but it might be 6.0, or 5.5 or even 5.0 watts/kg for some other rider. The rider is then judged by how much he exceeds this value, rather than some arbitrary value that is the same for everyone.

For those of you who feel that anti-doping fervor has reached the point where any rider who performs well is immediately the object of suspicion, I understand that this kind of system looks like your worst nightmare. But hear me out. I’m not proposing that riders be sanctioned on the basis of this kind of analysis. Nor is it necessary that teams publish these data, though I certainly wish they would.

What I’m proposing is that every team be required to make periodic (at least annually) measurements of every rider’s V02max, lactate threshold and efficiency. These three values, taken together, pretty much indicate the maximum power the rider is capable of putting out. They should have enormous predictive value on how fast a GT contender can climb certain mountains, with the usual precautions about wind, drafting, strategy, and so on. And when a rider has spent several years at the elite level, these values ought to stabilize to a large degree.

In fact both of these latter two claims—that they have great predictive value for climbing times and that they don’t change much when a rider reaches a certain point in his career—can be tested by such data. We ought to want to know more about how predictive power values obtained in the laboratory are for climbs in real races, and we certainly ought to want to know more about for how long and how much natural improvements in these parameters are possible. All this information would go into constructing the baselines, and crucially, the amount of deviation from them that seems plausible.

The teams would then be responsible for monitoring the power values of their riders. Though they would not have to release these data to the public, they would be required to provide them to the appropriate anti-doping officials. These officials could then be on the alert for performances that seem to exceed significantly what the rider has previously been capable of performing—again, based on what the data indicate about natural improvements.

When a rider exceeded what is considered his natural range, he would be identified publicly, and while his natural baseline would not be published, the public could get a very good idea of what it was based on the performance that led to his targeting. The rider and his team, needless to say, would not enjoy this privileged information being outed, and that itself, it seems to me, would be an important deterrent. I think the public has a right to know when a rider has far exceeded what he has ever been capable of doing before, not just by comparing with previous finishes, as was the case with Froome in 2011, but with hard data.

I have some other ideas about how to develop this system, but for now I’ve written enough, and will let others respond to it. I know there are many possible objections to it, from both sides of the aisle, so to speak--those who think it's an unfair way to judge riders, and others who may think it's too weak an approach to do much good--but I think with enough data the system can become very useful.
 
Sep 29, 2012
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DirtyWorks said:
Isn't veloclinic covering this ground with his Vertical Meters per Hour model? I could be totally wrong.

Either way, looking forward to more posts on the concept.

Veloclinic is providing a baseline and has the data for what MI is suggesting in terms of the analogy provided by the ABP.

When the ABP came out they had to establish 2 things:

* what's "normal" in terms of paramter baselines (eg: Hct <= 50%)
* what's "normal" in terms of paramter movement over time

They generated these figures based on studies done with other sports's elite athletes.

Veloclinic provides

* what's "normal" in terms of VAM - and could provide the average for riders and the population in general (VAM <= X w/kg)

but has the data to also look at what a rider does over the course of a season or number of seasons to provide the upper and lower limits.

He can't remove the "doped or not" variable, however, which is where the idea, whilst good, falls down.

There's natural improvement over time, and then there's potential for a similar natural improvement as a doping regime is implemented, refined and performance recorded in-race.

I have other ideas relating to this and am interested in where the discussion goes.

Combining this passport with the ABP, on the other hand...
 
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Wouldn't this 'periodic measurement' just become another 'target race' that requires the same 'preparation' as the real ones?
I mean, the wiggle room in the BP can be used whereever, whenever, no?

Or would the 'periodic measurement' be unannounced? :eek:
 
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If this sort of proposition was in place and physiological measures from the lab were the benchmark, guys like Cavendish would be sanctioned.

Until a power meter company can buy out the sponsorship of all the current teams' power meter sponsorships and supply precise power meters to ALL the teams, it's not feasible. So, while this would be nice as another datapoint, it is absolutely not possible at this time.

In addition to that, I don't think it's fair that every rider has to let every other rider know how strong they are at their very best. It's just not a sporting thing to do.
 
Interesting idea. Don't know enough about the underlying physiology to assess it's efficacy though!

Out of interest though, what is the relationship between those three predictive measures, max performance, and form/fatigue? What I mean by that is, when a rider is well rested and 'has the legs' they presumably knock out higher w/kg than when they're not - regardless of any doping that's a pretty 'normal' cycle - but does that imply the underlying measures are changing through your training cycle, or are there other factors that affect how much of your potential max ftp you can access at any given point? Hope that question makes sense, as I say I don't pretend any expertise on this!
 
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jw1979 said:
If this sort of proposition was in place and physiological measures from the lab were the benchmark, guys like Cavendish would be sanctioned.

No. He would prove his ability and get an exemption, just like athletes can for having Hct > 50%.

jw1979 said:
In addition to that, I don't think it's fair that every rider has to let every other rider know how strong they are at their very best. It's just not a sporting thing to do.

They don't have to tell each other what their Hct or retics are now, so why would they have to publish their power data?
 
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42x16ss said:
So what happens when a young (20 to 23yo) first/second year's FTP improves legitimately over time, due to improved base and physical condition? Kids that age can make some decent gains.

The BP worked by looking at established Hema parameters via studies conducted. If there is no such data, they will have to make it up.

Which is why my post above says - you can't filter or prove doped vs natural, so it does become an issue in that instance.

I think MI is talking about tracking it. Not hammering someone out of the sport for improving.

So if someone improves, it becomes part of the body of data that shows what is possible.

If someone, down the track, exceeds "what is possible", they can come under greater scrutiny, perhaps?

And the illness, BP, etc, would be useful for explaining depressed performance values vs post-illness performance values (like Froome's alleged increase).
 
I suppose my main comment is unless such a thing can result in a sanction, then its sole purpose can only ever be to provide targets for testing. Yet all pro riders that are performing are already targets for testing. So I'm not sure what it would add.


I see a swag of practical problems with the approach.

The quality of VO2 testing is highly variable, and even with quality labs, equipment and protocols, VO2 test results are significantly influenced by many factors, acute and chronic. Keep in mind that VO2max is not a particular good predictor of performance. Which is why many teams don't even bother with it.


How can you reliable ascertain the difference between training and doping?
A rider's threshold power can easily vary 10-15% during a season. Weight can also vary somewhat, meaning W/kg can have quite substantial swings. Season on season improvement is possible, even for a pro. In the end, performance changes due to training can be same order of magnitude as those due to doping.

How do you perform a test and assume you are getting reliable representation of what a rider is capable of?
A rider's preparation, level of fatigue, health status, motivation etc are big factors for getting a reliable number.

If it only focusses on selective climbs and TTs, then it only applies for the handful of riders that actually go au bloc for the duration. Not all riders are racing the final climbs or TTs, but instead in a support role, or riding grupetto and to make time cuts to save themselves for other ambitions during stages where power is highly variable and not indicative of much. Indeed it's the skill of riding with the least effort that often results in success.

Whose paying for the power meters? Which riders? Which power meters?

Sponsorship / manufacturer conflicts?
Would be like mandating that riders can only ride a certain brand of bike.

Whose going to sort out the variable errors in power measurement introduced with non-circular chainrings?

Who's validating the power meter data accuracy before, during after every ride?

How do you prevent data doping/manipulation/masking (that's pretty easy to do)?
 
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Alex Simmons/RST said:
I suppose my main comment is unless such a thing can result in a sanction, then its sole purpose can only ever be to provide targets for testing. Yet all pro riders that are performing are already targets for testing. So I'm not sure what it would add.

It's a separate issue, but I believe this is not in fact being addressed. ie - pro riders who are performing are being tested poorly, and not in a targeted fashion, or not in a fashion that could yield useful data.
 
Dear Wiggo said:
It's a separate issue, but I believe this is not in fact being addressed. ie - pro riders who are performing are being tested poorly, and not in a targeted fashion, or not in a fashion that could yield useful data.

That may well be the case, but do we need a power meter file to know which riders are performing well? Isn't it already pretty clear from race results?
 
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Alex Simmons/RST said:
That may well be the case, but do we need a power meter file to know which riders are performing well?

A complete solution is not possible, regardless. But the pro-conti guy who lands a fat contract as a domestique by boosting his power 15% using some handy recovery ergogenic aids is not going to be target tested before the boost. And as I say - complete solutions are impossible, so quite likely he wouldn't have power meter files either.

Alex Simmons/RST said:
Isn't it already pretty clear from race results?

Not necessarily, no. JTL is a classic example.

Another example: if we had Froome power files, I think the "is Froome clean" conversation could be much more interesting - and as I said previously; tied into the BP even more so.
 
Dear Wiggo said:
A complete solution is not possible, regardless. But the pro-conti guy who lands a fat contract as a domestique by boosting his power 15% using some handy recovery ergogenic aids is not going to be target tested before the boost. And as I say - complete solutions are impossible, so quite likely he wouldn't have power meter files either.

Yeah, like I said, who out of the 450 world tour riders + who knows how many more in the conti ranks do you pick to have mandated power measurement on their multiple bikes?


Dear Wiggo said:
Not necessarily, no. JTL is a classic example.

Another example: if we had Froome power files, I think the "is Froome clean" conversation could be much more interesting - and as I said previously; tied into the BP even more so.

Perhaps but making a conversation interesting isn't the objective. Preventing and detecting dopers and doping enablers is.

If the means of testing (frequency, type, randomness, timing etc) is such that it is presently ineffective, then I suggest that's what needs to change. Along with more investigative approach to intelligence gathering and other strategies.
 
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Alex Simmons/RST said:
Perhaps but making a conversation interesting isn't the objective. Preventing and detecting dopers and doping enablers is.

Interesting as in - complete information vs the uninteresting dribble of post-Vuelta 2011 frustration BS that Sky released.

I think the idea has merit. There are solutions to some of the issues being raised and in the end nothing is going to be perfect.
 
Merckx index said:
I think a lot of Clinicians are experiencing some ambiguity over Nibali’s performance to date. On the one hand, he is dominating the Tour, and making it look pretty easy. On the other hand, his estimated power values up the first two major climbs have been within the range that most observers regard as possible without doping.

Were they? I guess that depends on what "most observers regard as possible without doping". According to veloclinic his performances so far certainly haven't been slow, despite the fact the he clearly has held back all times.

oimg
 
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I think floating the concept is sensational, especially here, and love to see broader debate on it. To me it sounds like a great idea. With a lot of progress on parameters and data in the past few years the time is right to take the whole passport concept to the next level.

How would the new model allow for rare influencing circumstances like one's recent Bilharzia though that screw with baseline/historical data? I guess no different to the current approach, so certainly no worse?
 
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Excellent and thought producing post, OP, and some very interesting subsequent posts. Good thread, I'll try not to scribble on it!

I've been thinking the same thing watching the Tour this year. I'd like to see more data - if we knew the power data, HR data etc live for every rider, it would open the sport out to a whole new level of interest to me. Cyclists tend to be data nerds, look at the success of Strava, for instance, and we enjoy comparing ourselves against the pros, even if it is for a bit of fun.

Why not have a UCI-led, one make system or power monitoring, like in F1 with tyres. Stream the data live, and use it to show how close to the limit each rider is. Combine that with the passport, standardised on-board minicams to show the crashes, career-changing punishment for doping offenses, anti-doping reps in the hotels with all-access passes, WADA analysis of ALL EPO, AICAR prescriptions throughout Europe, US etc. I'd also get rid of the earpieces, so we would know what's happening but the riders would have to live on their wits. They (the riders) wouldn't like it, but the sport isn't their's, it's ours!

No, these ideas aren't perfect, there's flaws and issues in there, but cycling has to do something affirmative 'cause fans who lived through the 1990's and beyond don't know which way to turn. Big Data may completely change cycling, but cycling could propably do with a revolution. I reckon these things would increase the appeal, and therefore the revenue growth, of the sport.

I can do without 20% power increases from race to race being put down to 'finding form'. Combine the physiological data with the output data and we will have a sport which leads the world.
 
Interesting debate but I don't see how a system that focusses on outcomes (i.e. power produced, which is subject to a great many factors, both nefarious and otherwise) takes us any further than the current system (which looks for evidence of illegal manipulation).

The process of improving performance is more important than the performance itself. A system as proposed potentially limits fair ways of improving performance as well as foul - I don't feel comfortable with that.
 
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simoni said:
A system as proposed potentially limits fair ways of improving performance as well as foul - I don't feel comfortable with that.

How would it limit fair ways of improving performance? Can you give an example?

Pretty confident any concern you have would be answered in the BP already, or have a very reasonable solution.
 
Maybe so. I was thinking in terms of riders seeing large improvements on new teams due to more effective coaching (I'm certain that the high level of expertise we assume is not actually there in a lot of top level teams) or innovative coaching/training regimes.

If these would be explained with the BP (constant values presumably if done fairly), what would be the point of a threshold passport?

Another issue - where do sprinters/puncheurs fit into this? I doubt Kittel takes any interest in his FTP over 40mins as long as he can ride with the autobus.
 
Sep 29, 2012
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simoni said:
Maybe so. I was thinking in terms of riders seeing large improvements on new teams due to more effective coaching (I'm certain that the high level of expertise we assume is not actually there in a lot of top level teams) or innovative coaching/training regimes.

Can you give an example of "more effective coaching" at this level?

simoni said:
If these would be explained with the BP (constant values presumably if done fairly), what would be the point of a threshold passport?

Another issue - where do sprinters/puncheurs fit into this? I doubt Kittel takes any interest in his FTP over 40mins as long as he can ride with the autobus.

He still has an FTP - it determines the likelihood of him staying with the bunch up a climb. And top end power can also be measured.
 
Dear Wiggo said:
Can you give an example of "more effective coaching" at this level?

Not directly as I'm not an expert of the subject in cycling terms but I do have knowledge of the variations that can arise in other enduracne sports. I am fairly sure that some riders performance levels will change after team changes due to doing things differently otherwise coaches probably wouldn't have jobs. In some cases changes could be quite large.

Not surectly linked to climbing but I'll refer once again to Nico Roche's statement in his book that he didn't even have a TT bike at home to train on at a time when he was a TDF top 10 aspirant. This implies that there was considerable variation in expertise/performance resourcing across the top level of the sport 4-5 years ago and it seems likely that there is still some considerable headroom for improvement in a lot of teams now.