The GT pecking order: Where they stand and how can it change?

[gregrowlerson]

TDF
Giro
Vuelta

It seems to have been this way forever and a day. The TDF seems to have benefitted from becoming an international race before the others; in fact even today it appears to attract more top riders from outside its own nation (well, if it only attracted the French it wouldn't be much of a race!). This has had a lot to do with its position in the cycling calendar. July is smack bang in the middle of the season.

I would doubt that the TDF can ever be knocked off its perch, but small changes can occur thanks to brave organisers. I'm not sure if the Giro has traditionally been a tougher course than the Tour (in fact I would doubt it - and just look at the pathetic 2004 parcours), but the ideas that Zomegnan put into action now have the race being generally regarded as having the tougher, more mountainous route. The race has seen some of the best recent GT riders emerge victorious - a dominant Basso in '06, Contador in '08 and '11, Menchov in '09. The field of the past couple of editions has been a very strong one.

The Giro has almost had the TDF looking over its shoulder. But the demise of Zomegnan and the declaration of Contador to skip the 2012 Giro seem to give the TDF the clear advantage again.

The Vuelta has been a clear last in recent times - apart from perhaps the great battle between Vino and Valverdje (two of the TDF favourites) in '06. Should the Vuelta do something drastically different to attempt to become a more significant GT?

Firstly, there is a problem with where it sits in the season, being at World Championships time. October/November is probably too late for it, but possibly it could start in mid August, even though this would mean attracting even fewer of the TDF stars. But really, the Vuelta should first of all (IMO) be trying to develop its own identity.

This years race had a reasonable parcours (6 MTF's is plenty to see significant time gaps), yet the top 10-15 riders weren't separated by much at all, possibly highlighting the field as being filled with second string GC riders - and ones who were still recovering from other races and injuries.

This contrasts greatly to Contadors time gaps at the Giro.

After the Giro and TDF announced short TTT's for 2011 why did the Vuelta do exactly the same?

So should the race do something outlandish and re-introduce a 70 km odd TTT?

Not that I agree with that, but it would be a major difference and could therefore attract some riders that it otherwise wouldn't.

Or should it just load up with ITT?

I would agree with such a move (okay, partly because I want Kloden to have one last shot at a decent GT result!). Riders such as Evans, Wiggins, Froome, Nibali, Menchov, might then focus their entire season around the race, not to mention that wonderful climber Tony Martin

The Vuelta has changed its leaders jersey numerous times, but that's the one thing that should remain the same.

 

[hrotha]

I think it's funny that so many riders complain about the Giro being so tough, when from the outside it would seem the reason it attracted so many foreign contenders this year was that it was perceived as a monster of a race, hence a special challenge and a very prestigious affair. I don't see the hierarchy TDF>Giro>Vuelta changing any time soon. It'd be easier for the Vuelta to overtake the Giro, but that's not going to happen in the near future, among other reasons, because the organizers are pretty awful.

 

[gregrowlerson]

I felt that it was a little extreme to not have a single flatish stage from 13-21, but have to admit that it was generally a terrific parcours with so many wow factors. Has there ever been so many queen stages in a GT?! 13, 14, 15, 16, 20!

A shame that they couldn't ride Crostis.

 

[Descender]

Funny how fast opinions change regarding this issue... the pecking order has always been the same, but I remember just five-six years ago people were saying the Giro was a **** race and the Giro and the Vuelta had nothing on the TdF and were so second-tier and so soft. Now the Giro has had this renaissance under Zomegnan and it seems as if it's gained back some of its prestige.

About the Vuelta, after last year everyone was saying how exciting it had been and how Bola del Mundo was an epic addition and whatnot, now after this year's awful edition is seems as if it's back to TDU status again... same exact thing happened after 2006 (best Vuelta I've ever seen) and 2007. Epic GT then one year later **** stage race.

 

[Parrulo]

i honestly think the giro closed a lot of the gap btw himself and the tour but i don't think it will ever reach the same status unfortunately.

vuelta is still a bit behind but thats mostly if not entirely the organizers fault, i mean seriously when will the vuelta organization realize that they need hard mountain passes in their mountains stages instead of all flat until a big mountain top finish and descending finishes at the end of a hard mountain stage?

thats imo where the giro is heads and shoulds above the vuelta and even above the tour. the giro always has at least 1 stage of mountain after mountain with barely any flat in btw the climbs while the vuelta hardly ever does that and the tour usually has too much flat in btw the mountains.

 

[just some guy]

Parrulo I would have described the Giro as female.

Anyway The tour will always be the most watched and biggest race in the world except of the die hard.

Who was it that said something like - the Tour will always be the biggest but the Giro has a special place in the heart of cycling.

The Vuelta will always be the poor cousin and even more so next few years on wards with a lot of the hillier guys heading for 3 weeks in the US racing at altitude then Canada to blow out the cobwebs and then to the WC

 

[The Hitch]

The Tour is quite a bit ahead of the Giro and the Giro is some bit ahead of the Vuelta.

But I would say that, as Contador said in 2008, for any rider who has won the Tour, winning the Giro that first time is bigger than winning another Tour.

And the Giro always has Italy, which is possibly the major cycling nation. It has the most teams, the most riders, the most major races, the 2nd/1st best domestic cycling scene, the most fans (it almost matches TDF for on road spectators even though TDF has fans from the whole world and Giro almost only from Italy), is the 2nd best nation today and has almost always been one of the top nations.

 

[Zoncolan]

I'd say the Giro was bigger than the Tour in the days of Coppi and Bartali.
The Vuelta was always the runt of the litter.
1. Tour
2. Giro
3. Vuelta
Never gonna change. The Vuelta simply doesn't have the history of the other two GTs.

 

[miguelvazpinto]

Kloden is an amazing rider but perhaps he was always faced as 5 stars help to others (Jan Ulrich, Lance Armstrong, Alberto Contador, etc) by his directors. I think he deserved better oportunities to be captain in grand tour races. He is an excellent time trialist and perhaps a better role in past years would improved his climbing skills.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

Kloden is an amazing rider but perhaps he was always faced as 5 stars help to others (Jan Ulrich, Lance Armstrong, Alberto Contador, etc) by his directors. I think he deserved better oportunities to be captain in grand tour races. He is an excellent time trialist and perhaps a better role in past years would improved his climbing skills.

yea, this make the Giro better than the tdf.

 

[Timmy-loves-Rabo]

Tour will always be the biggest race of the calender, the 'most important race'.

The giro will always be the most beautiful race.

And the Vuelta will always be that GT, which maybe only the dedicated cycling fans can really appreciate.

All are great races, in terms of the race I don't think the tour is better then the giro. But it has the status of such, and riders will always wanna win this race.
Everyone acknowledges the tour.

 

[Timmy-loves-Rabo]

Kloden is an amazing rider but perhaps he was always faced as 5 stars help to others (Jan Ulrich, Lance Armstrong, Alberto Contador, etc) by his directors. I think he deserved better oportunities to be captain in grand tour races. He is an excellent time trialist and perhaps a better role in past years would improved his climbing skills.

summary..

kloden is the best GT

 

[More Strides than Rides]

Tour will always be the biggest race of the calender, the 'most important race'.

The giro will always be the most beautiful race.

And the Vuelta will always be that GT, which maybe only the dedicated cycling fans can really appreciate.

All are great races, in terms of the race I don't think the tour is better then the giro. But it has the status of such, and riders will always wanna win this race.
Everyone acknowledges the tour.

That about the best way to put it.

Nothing compares to a GT trophy, but the prestige comes from who you competed against and who you beat. Everybody wants to race in July because that's where the competition (and then the prestige of winning in a better field) is. The rise of the Giro most recently can be attributed to Contador's image elevating the quality of competition.

After reading the CN about Beijing, is prize money important to the riders or teams? How to the three GT's compare in what they offer their participants? I am only familiar with Track and Field, where it is very influential for where people decide to run. Is that a way to change the scene of GT's?

 

[miguelvazpinto]

summary..

kloden is the best GT

Just giving my opinion about Kloden to gregrowlerson (Kloden´s huge fan), who iniciated this thread. I also like Kloden very much but it´s obviously that seeing him fighting for a gt in this phase of his carreer... it´s not going to happen

 

[Captain_Cavman]

...
Firstly, there is a problem with where it sits in the season, being at World Championships time. October/November is probably too late for it, but possibly it could start in mid August, even though this would mean attracting even fewer of the TDF stars. But really, the Vuelta should first of all (IMO) be trying to develop its own identity.

This years race had a reasonable parcours (6 MTF's is plenty to see significant time gaps), yet the top 10-15 riders weren't separated by much at all, possibly highlighting the field as being filled with second string GC riders - and ones who were still recovering from other races and injuries.

This contrasts greatly to Contadors time gaps at the Giro.

After the Giro and TDF announced short TTT's for 2011 why did the Vuelta do exactly the same?

So should the race do something outlandish and re-introduce a 70 km odd TTT?

Not that I agree with that, but it would be a major difference and could therefore attract some riders that it otherwise wouldn't.

Or should it just load up with ITT?

I would agree with such a move (okay, partly because I want Kloden to have one last shot at a decent GT result!). Riders such as Evans, Wiggins, Froome, Nibali, Menchov, might then focus their entire season around the race, not to mention that wonderful climber Tony Martin

The Vuelta has changed its leaders jersey numerous times, but that's the one thing that should remain the same.

I agree with you on all counts. The Vuelta needs to have a USP that makes it attractive enough for it to be a season's target for top class riders.

It could use the position of last on the calendar as an advantage, to make sure it is a different type of race to the other two. Instead the organisers appear to try to imitate the Giro but without the quality of field or organisation.

 

[luckyboy]

The ranking is never going to change, but the Giro has been better than the Tour for a few years now.

Can't see that changing next year either.

 

[Michielveedeebee]

The Tour is quite a bit ahead of the Giro and the Giro is some bit ahead of the Vuelta.

But I would say that, as Contador said in 2008, for any rider who has won the Tour, winning the Giro that first time is bigger than winning another Tour.
.

I agree, with both of these things, but I have to admit that the last 2 Giro's were more epic than any Tour than I can remember...
So Tour>Giro>Vuelta
but also
Tour + Giro + Vuelta > 3 Tours, Not many riders get a GT career grand slam

 

[jens_attacks]

The ranking is never going to change, but the Giro has been better than the Tour for a few years now.

Can't see that changing next year either.

+1..........

 

[Cult Classics]

The gap between the tour and the rest is huge. The giro is my fave, but most people outside cycling haven't even heard of it - people assume cycling consists of the tour and nothing else. Within cycling it's only in Italy that the Giro rivals the tour. The giro and vuelta are only followed in countries where cycling is a big sport, the tour is in all countries. And you notice that on the roadsides too - it's only at weekends on big stage you see much in the way of crowds for the Giro and Vuelta, and even then mostly theyre locals. I wish it were more balanced - I value a Giro or Vuelta winner far higher than someone who's come 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th at the Tour - but the money, prestige and exposure suggest things aren't going to change.

 

[Anonymous]

The Vuelta will always be the poor cousin and even more so next few years on wards with a lot of the hillier guys heading for 3 weeks in the US racing at altitude then Canada to blow out the cobwebs and then to the WC

If the Vuelta is your Cousin, and the Tour is your best friend, does that make the Giro your Mother in Law?

 

[The Hitch]

The giro and vuelta are only followed in countries where cycling is a big sport, the tour is in all countries.

Actually the vast vast majority of countries do not give a **** about the Tour de France. It is not followed in all countries.

 

[Descender]

Actually the vast vast majority of countries do not give a **** about the Tour de France. It is not followed in all countries.

Sad but true.

 

[Angliru]

If the Vuelta is your Cousin, and the Tour is your best friend, does that make the Giro your Mother in Law?

The Giro is your sexy mistress!

 

[Libertine Seguros]

The Vuelta is perennially underrated, but always seems to peter out with the organisers not staking too much on the final week since people always leave for the Worlds. It also tends to alternate good editions and bad editions.

The order will always be Tour-Giro-Vuelta.

The Tour's bluster and media presence will always make it the best, the Giro's romance and racing will always make it the purist's choice, and the Vuelta's harshness and heat will always make it one for the purists and not for the casual fan.

The Vuelta has been doing a good job in recent years of finding and using new mountains, but that problem of people leaving for the Worlds will always hamstring it, because they have a tendency to use easier courses or cram most of the important action into weeks 1 and 2 because of that, leaving it to finish on an unsatisfactory note (2009's edition, with Caisse letting break after break go and nobody daring attack Valverde, and 2011's edition, with nothing save the last 2km of Peña Cabarga truly mattering in the final week, spring to mind), whereas the Tour de France keeps serving up utter unwatchable garbage for two weeks, but finishes on an exciting high note leaving the fan satisfied.

It's like a band putting together an album. The Vuelta is a band who have some great, catchy singles, and fill the first half of the album with them, but then the album peters out with some unnecessary filler towards the end leading the album to sell well at first then free-fall out of the charts; the Tour is a band who have a couple of great, epic songs, and put them near the end of the album, so you want to listen again after it finishes, even though the first half of the album is pretty dreary fare; the Giro is a one-track concept album which rises and falls and is beloved of musos, but doesn't have the commercial clout.

 

[LugHugger]

The Vuelta is perennially underrated, but always seems to peter out with the organisers not staking too much on the final week since people always leave for the Worlds. It also tends to alternate good editions and bad editions.

The order will always be Tour-Giro-Vuelta.

The Tour's bluster and media presence will always make it the best, the Giro's romance and racing will always make it the purist's choice, and the Vuelta's harshness and heat will always make it one for the purists and not for the casual fan.

The Vuelta has been doing a good job in recent years of finding and using new mountains, but that problem of people leaving for the Worlds will always hamstring it, because they have a tendency to use easier courses or cram most of the important action into weeks 1 and 2 because of that, leaving it to finish on an unsatisfactory note (2009's edition, with Caisse letting break after break go and nobody daring attack Valverde, and 2011's edition, with nothing save the last 2km of Peña Cabarga truly mattering in the final week, spring to mind), whereas the Tour de France keeps serving up utter unwatchable garbage for two weeks, but finishes on an exciting high note leaving the fan satisfied.

It's like a band putting together an album. The Vuelta is a band who have some great, catchy singles, and fill the first half of the album with them, but then the album peters out with some unnecessary filler towards the end leading the album to sell well at first then free-fall out of the charts; the Tour is a band who have a couple of great, epic songs, and put them near the end of the album, so you want to listen again after it finishes, even though the first half of the album is pretty dreary fare; the Giro is a one-track concept album which rises and falls and is beloved of musos, but doesn't have the commercial clout.

Great analysis and metaphor

part of the vuelta's problem is that, as you say, the August heat makes it difficult to race spectacularly for 3 weeks. It may be sacrilegious but is there a case to be made for shortening the race to a more intense two weeks. Or even one week? It seems difficult to fit the race in earlier in the year because of the Spring Classics, then the Giro, then the Tour. And the Vuelta always suffers from a higher attrition rate because some riders use the race as preparation for the World's. It seems to me that the Vuelta is set up to be the fall guy in August due to the Spanish climate and the date for the World's.

I wonder if moving the World's forward to August and the Vuelta back to start in September give the Vuelta the opportunity to make itself a better race?