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The Lowe Down on Vaughters (aka Knight of the Ethical Objectivity round table)

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BotanyBay

BotanyBay

Oct 25, 2010
3,049
2
0
I smell a Hardie production.

Don_HenleyDirtyLaundry45.jpg
 
D

dbrower

Aug 1, 2009
329
0
9,280
BotanyBay said:
Julian Assange must be a racing fan. Well, he is Australian.

I smell a Hardie production.
Click to expand...

Since the link is to Hardie's newcyclingpathways, you don't have to smell, it's right there staring us in the face.

What I wonder is what prompted the release at this time? Noegotiations stopped? Something else came into play?

-dB
 
blackcat

blackcat

Mar 13, 2009
16,854
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for those who wanted transparency and info, there u got it. How them apples.

And how does JV's "transparency" mesh? Meshes like a Rorschach.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
A few comments on the article.. As a cyclist, if a doctor is suggested to you, google them.

As for the rest, too much to read through. What confuses me is why newcyclingpathway have put it online, they are primerily a bikepure type anti doping platform, not a contractual dispute platform. Wonder why they didnt pass it onto a site more used to dealing with things like that.

All in all very odd.

interesting as well that its titled "background FACTS".. It may well be, but its one side of the story. Not saying i dont beleive it or have an opinion each way, but the use of the word facts intrests me.

Ferminal said:
In the name of transparency, it would be good to see the replies to e-mails from Trent in 2010. Very easy to be convinced when you only see one side of the story.
Click to expand...

thats my thought, and why they are reporting as FACT one side of the story. Maybe sites should start reporting all of Landis's stuff as fact.
 
pedaling squares

pedaling squares

Jul 23, 2009
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One party's side of communication and negotiations, especially ones concerning money, especially ones made public, are rarely a truly accurate representation of what occurred. I don't put much faith in either side's account as stated through the media or message boards. The truth lies somewhere in the middle and off to the side.
 
theswordsman

theswordsman

Feb 14, 2010
2,202
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Ferminal said:
In the name of transparency, it would be good to see the replies to e-mails from Trent in 2010. Very easy to be convinced when you only see one side of the story.
Click to expand...

I just read the whole thing. There apparently weren't any replies. That's a big part of it. Forget all the contract stuff. How does a team manager lose contact with a rider for months in a row, especially when the guy has made himself available multiple times in the same city, at the manager's convenience?

The retroactive contract termination is weak too.
 
F

Ferminal

Jul 3, 2009
18,948
5
22,485
TeamSkyFans said:
A few comments on the article.. As a cyclist, if a doctor is suggested to you, google them.

As for the rest, too much to read through. What confuses me is why newcyclingpathway have put it online, they are primerily a bikepure type anti doping platform, not a contractual dispute platform. Wonder why they didnt pass it onto a site more used to dealing with things like that.

All in all very odd.

interesting as well that its titled "background FACTS".. It may well be, but its one side of the story. Not saying i dont beleive it or have an opinion each way, but the use of the word facts intrests me.
Click to expand...

Newcyclingpathway is more an outlet for Hardie than anything else. The "book" featured on the website is more than just doping talk. Hardie overall seems to appear mainly as a rider advocate, whether that be in speaking out against doping or any other issues facing them.

I don't know why he/they have decided to post this now, does that mean the two parties have come to an agreement? The post kind of ends with the two parties will entrenched in their positions, with Hardie/Lowe suggesting legal action citing several reasons, and Slipstream only willing to negotiate on the "contractual dispute" grievance. Where are things at now?

theswordsman said:
I just read the whole thing. There apparently weren't any replies. That's a big part of it. Forget all the contract stuff. How does a team manager lose contact with a rider for months in a row, especially when the guy has made himself available multiple times in the same city, at the manager's convenience?

The retroactive contract termination is weak too.
Click to expand...

Yeh, that's kind of my point, if there weren't any replies it seems Lowe was ditched from the team long ago. Maybe there were, just Hardie didn't post them.
 
BroDeal

BroDeal

Mar 18, 2009
14,644
72
22,580
Even the one sided version is really weak. Proving that a lack of tests caused Lowe's health problems looks iffy at best, certainly when it is exaggerated into destroying Lowe's career.

It seems that everything came to a head when Hardie refused to decouple the dubious health claims from the salary issue.

The suspicious part of me says that Lowe was using EPO without iron supplementation. This caused anemia, and his good buddy White knew just who could fix him up. Later on he hooked up with a new guy who raised his hemoglobin, hematocrit, and testosterone. I wonder how that happened. ;) The facts as presented do not give me a lot of confidence in Lowe being clean. They don't point to Slipstream being dirty, though. For all we know, Vaughters did not renew Lowe's contract because he suspected that he was charging.

So how does someone in Australia go about suing an American organization with no presence in Australia? What is to prevent Slipstream from simply not responding? What happens if Slipstream turns around and sues Lowe and Hardie in an American court for attempting to blackmail them?
 
K

Kodiak

Jun 20, 2010
181
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0
I always considered JV to be a bit of a slick dealer but from the looks of this information he thought he didn't have to get down off of his pedestal and now it's going to cost him in more ways than if he would have just paid the man and let him fade away.
 
blackcat

blackcat

Mar 13, 2009
16,854
2
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if JV had any reason not to renew guys contracts cos he suspected they were charging bro he had Wigans, instead played brinkmanship with Brailsford for $$$, he has weak willed and mealy mouthed Millar, and he has CvdV staring him in the face.
 
blackcat

blackcat

Mar 13, 2009
16,854
2
0
BroDeal said:
Even the one sided version is really weak. Proving that a lack of tests caus
So how does someone in Australia go about suing an American organization with no presence in Australia? What is to prevent Slipstream from simply not responding? When happens if Slipstream turns around and sues Lowe and Hardie in an American court for attempting to blackmail them?
Click to expand...

how are they attempting to blackmail. They have a bona fide case there.
 
F

Ferminal

Jul 3, 2009
18,948
5
22,485
BroDeal said:
Even the one sided version is really weak. Proving that a lack of tests caused Lowe's health problems looks iffy at best, certainly when it is exaggerated into destroying Lowe's career.

It seems that everything came to a head when Hardie refused to decouple the dubious health claims from the salary issue.

The suspicious part of me says that Lowe was using EPO without iron supplementation. This caused anemia, and his good buddy White knew just who could fix him up. Later on he hooked up with a new guy who raised his hemoglobin, hematocrit, and testosterone. I wonder how that happened. ;) The facts as presented do not give me a lot of confidence in Lowe being clean. They don't point to Slipstream being dirty, though. For all we know, Vaughters did not renew Lowe's contract because he suspected that he was charging.

So how does someone in Australia go about suing an American organization with no presence in Australia? What is to prevent Slipstream from simply not responding? When happens if Slipstream turns around and sues Lowe and Hardie in an American court for attempting to blackmail them?
Click to expand...

This was possibly the most interesting bit... this guy sounds like a bit of a miracle worker, just like Michele is eh?

"I will continue my work with Rob and whilst in Europe he has been treating many riders on our team at their own expense. His skill set is beyond that of anyone I have ever worked with before. Should you be interested to know something about his methods please let me know. I highly recommend them."

Also good to see Trent felt (excuse the pun) he was getting back into good shape and had plenty to offer in future seasons. For his sake it would have been good to see him riding at the top level once again, but I doubt that will happen now (with Lowe himself, Pegasus and Slipstream all a bit to blame).
 
blackcat

blackcat

Mar 13, 2009
16,854
2
0
Ferminal said:
Newcyclingpathway is more an outlet for Hardie than anything else. The "book" featured on the website is more than just doping talk. Hardie overall seems to appear mainly as a rider advocate, whether that be in speaking out against doping or any other issues facing them.

I don't know why he/they have decided to post this now, does that mean the two parties have come to an agreement? The post kind of ends with the two parties will entrenched in their positions, with Hardie/Lowe suggesting legal action citing several reasons, and Slipstream only willing to negotiate on the "contractual dispute" grievance. Where are things at now?



Yeh, that's kind of my point, if there weren't any replies it seems Lowe was ditched from the team long ago. Maybe there were, just Hardie didn't post them.
Click to expand...
you get 20 pages of details and you say 'I only have one side of the story'? This shows the comms both ways. Who is the one playing games.

Re Two sides of the story- we have had one side from JV before, and everyone believed it and started calling TL a blackmailer, and JV a hero. Now we see the truth, that there was no blackmail, and that JV did not reply to tl's attempts to contact him, and they say 'only one side of the story'- this is the response to the 26 jan release. Who is being transparent?

What replies? That's the whole point. He stuck his head in the sand and said, 'Trent never told me.' well he's been trying to talk to JV for the best part of a year.
 
B

Beech Mtn

Oct 6, 2009
5,270
2
0
theswordsman said:
I just read the whole thing. There apparently weren't any replies. That's a big part of it. Forget all the contract stuff. How does a team manager lose contact with a rider for months in a row, especially when the guy has made himself available multiple times in the same city, at the manager's convenience?

The retroactive contract termination is weak too.
Click to expand...

+1. I also wondered why JV had allegedly not yet paid Lowe bonuses from the 2009 season in addition to the bonuses from the 2010 season. That doesn't look too good.
 
blackcat

blackcat

Mar 13, 2009
16,854
2
0
Were Garmin tests in accordance with uci requirements? If not, why not?

Did JV and Steffen know about del moral visit? What does the correspondence show?

Where is the policy that fired white? I it doesn't exist, then why did he do it

Why did JV not talk to lowe?

Why did JV say that he called lowe but he wouldn't answer?

Why did JV allege blackmail, especially when he was the one asking for a figure?
 
Dr. Maserati

Dr. Maserati

BANNED
Jun 19, 2009
13,250
1
0
pedaling squares said:
One party's side of communication and negotiations, especially ones concerning money, especially ones made public, are rarely a truly accurate representation of what occurred. I don't put much faith in either side's account as stated through the media or message boards. The truth lies somewhere in the middle and off to the side.
Click to expand...

Noooo....

There may be 2 sides to a story, but there is only ever one truth.

Some points that I noticed that have not been raised here.

Whitey sent TL to LdM directly - this wasn't just some unfortunate coincidence that happened by flicking through the Yellow Pages and looking for Clinics.

JV does seem genuinely surprised by the revelation (which is good news) but why did he not deal with White straight away? It took 2 weeks before they sacked White.

If JV says the reason he didn't honor TL's contract was to uphold high standards (as said to NYVC) then why not call White immediately and find out if it was true or not.
If White says "yes" he bites the bullet - if he says "no" then suspend him until they 'investigate' the claims.
 
blackcat

blackcat

Mar 13, 2009
16,854
2
0
Dr. Maserati said:
Noooo....

There may be 2 sides to a story, but there is only ever one truth.
Click to expand...

see what Robert Fisk has to day on our Fox News era of pundrity, talking heads, and the "Two Sides BS narrative"
 
blackcat

blackcat

Mar 13, 2009
16,854
2
0
this was prior to the 2008 Tour where he debuted. I think. This was post the final? Georgia, where I think he came Rup to Jani. I might be wrong.

JV and UCI shoulda really followed this. Cos he never had to sit out 10 days for the health suspension. Would like to know the answer from JV and UCI. AND TRENT for sure.

TL really struggled in the tour for what its worth. It was not on his program. This was White's selection, cos he thought he had good form.

Should ask Christophe LAurent to the selection JV promised him and JM Leblanc about some French representation for expedience.

EDIT:
2008 low testo

2009 and 2010 high hct
 
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