The myth about "tough" climbs.

[Bavarianrider]

Very often you see people argue that a certain climb is especially tough cause it has a very high gradient.
Especially in Giro vs Tour discussions many often argue that the Giro has the the tougher route, cuase the mountains in the Giro have usually a hogher gradient then does in the Tour.
However, inrality, at least for pro riders, it does not matter what gardient a climb has, The garadient of a climb does not determine how tough it is!
The only thing which determines the difficulty of a climb is how hard the cyclists ride.
If a cyclist rides at 6 watt/Kilo on a 5 % gardient, it is exactly as tough as if he rides at 6 Watt/Kilo on a 12%gradient. If a cyclist rides at 6 watt/Kilo on a 2 % gardient, and on 5 Watt/Kilo on a 15 % gardient, the 2 % mountain is actually tougher. The gradient of a climb simply does not determine the difficulty at all! It's how cyclists ride those mountains, that's what determinates the toughness of a climb! So please stop crying about how difficult a climb is because of the gradient. The gradient doesn't mean anything!

 

[jobiwan]

Very often you see people argue that a certain climb is especially tough cause it has a very high gradient.
Especially in Giro vs Tour discussions many often argue that the Giro has the the tougher route, cuase the mountains in the Giro have usually a hogher gradient then does in the Tour.
However, inrality, at least for pro riders, it does not matter what gardient a climb has, The garadient of a climb does not determine how tough it is!
The only thing which determines the difficulty of a climb is how hard the cyclists ride.
If a cyclist rides at 6 watt/Kilo on a 5 % gardient, it is exactly as tough as if he rides at 6 Watt/Kilo on a 12%gradient. If a cyclist rides at 6 watt/Kilo on a 2 % gardient, and on 5 Watt/Kilo on a 15 % gardient, the 2 % mountain is actually tougher. The gradient of a climb simply does not determine the difficulty at all! It's how cyclists ride those mountains, that's what determinates the toughness of a climb! So please stop crying about how difficult a climb is because of the gradient. The gradient doesn't mean anything!

So really we even don't need to have mountains, we just need to make them ride faster on the flats!!

The 1st bolded statement makes no sense, because it's a lot harder to ride at 6 watts/kilo on a 12% than it is on 5%; THERE'S A REASON THEY GO SLOWER ON STEEPER CLIMBS!
The 2nd bolded statement clearly shows you didn't watch the Zoncolan

 

[Libertine Seguros]

The steeper the climb, the less the drafting effects, and the harder it is to change pace quickly.

So putting out the power might not change, but the way you race it certainly does.

One of the toughest things in a climb is when the gradient keeps changing, which alters the rhythm of a rider. Also there's the psychological effect - somebody 30" ahead of you riding at 12% will be closer than somebody 30" ahead of you at 5% - it can be demoralising to see somebody right in front of you but totally inaccessible.

Also quality of surface comes into it. Finestre has the dirt surface, same as Kronplatz. Makes it hard to grip and gain momentum when you're making those turns, harder to ride out of the saddle and attack on. Remember that the infamous 2005 stage saw Simoni/di Luca/Rujano attack on the asphalt and build the lead on the sterrato.

 

[Bavarianrider]

So really we even don't need to have mountains, we just need to make them ride faster on the flats!!
The bolded statement clearly shows you didn't watch the Zoncolan.

We need mountains, cause on the flat riders can just hang in the slipstream.
But Zoncolan is not a tougher climb then 7% gradient mountain. The toughness of a climb is deremianted by the time a cyclist rides at a certain power level. Not by the gradient.
Surface doesnt matter too. It's simply about the power level. Of course if a rider can safe energy in the slipstream, then the climb gtes easier.
But the difficulty of a climb is a purely subjctive isue.

 

[jobiwan]

We need mountains, cause on the flat riders can just hang in the slipstream.
But Zoncolan is not a tougher climb then 7% gradient mountain. The toughness of a climb is deremianted by the time a cyclist rides at a certain power level. Not by the gradient.

No. In this case, you are just flat out wrong.

 

[Bavarianrider]

So really we even don't need to have mountains, we just need to make them ride faster on the flats!!

The 1st bolded statement makes no sense, because it's a lot harder to ride at 6 watts/kilo on a 12% than it is on 5%; THERE'S A REASON THEY GO SLOWER ON STEEPER CLIMBS!

Why should it be harder? Of course 6 watt/kilo on a 10% gradient makes you go slower then 6watt/Kilo on 5%. But effort is exactly the same, and itÄs exactly as difficult.

 

[Bavarianrider]

No. In this case, you are just flat out wrong.

Please explain my why it's harder?

 

[tubularglue]

lets throw elevation' into this argument

 

[jobiwan]

Please explain my why it's harder?

Giro Stage 7: Final Climb to Montevergine, 17 kms, 5.0% average; 25 riders finish in the first group

Giro Stage 14: Climb to Zoncolan, 10 kms (shorter, so it should be easier, right?), 12% average (but it's all the same really, so an even larger group than Stage 7 should make it to the finish together due to the shorter climb, right?)

The 25th rider to reach Zoncolan, Ivan Rovny, was 5 minutes back.
I rest my case.

 

[Bavarianrider]

Giro Stage 7: Final Climb to Montevergine, 17 kms, 5.0% average; 25 riders finish in the first group

Giro Stage 14: Climb to Zoncolan, 10 kms (shorter, so it should be easier, right?), 12% average (but it's all the same really, so an even larger group than Stage 7 should make it to the finish together due to the shorter climb, right?)

The 25th rider to reach Zoncolan, Ivan Rovny, was 5 minutes back.
I rest my case.

Again, you miss my point. Of course on steep climbs, slipstrream doesn't play much of arole and therefore weaker riders can't stay on the wheels of the better ones and fall back. But for the guys in the front, both clims are exaclty as tough as the other. If you go full throttle, you go full throttle.
The toughess of a mounatin is subjective, it's how hard you ride

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

The steeper the climb, the less the drafting effects, and the harder it is to change pace quickly.

So putting out the power might not change, but the way you race it certainly does.

One of the toughest things in a climb is when the gradient keeps changing, which alters the rhythm of a rider. Also there's the psychological effect - somebody 30" ahead of you riding at 12% will be closer than somebody 30" ahead of you at 5% - it can be demoralising to see somebody right in front of you but totally inaccessible.

Also quality of surface comes into it. Finestre has the dirt surface, same as Kronplatz. Makes it hard to grip and gain momentum when you're making those turns, harder to ride out of the saddle and attack on. Remember that the infamous 2005 stage saw Simoni/di Luca/Rujano attack on the asphalt and build the lead on the sterrato.

+1.
I might be able to ride up the Alpe, but try and race it is a whole different world.

Sterrato.... yes that was EPIC!

 

[JayKosta]

On the flat, team support and drafting strategy can help a weaker rider stay with a large group.

In the mountains there is no escaping gravity.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

 

[robertocarlos]

Have you even ridden anything above 7%?
I do not know why or how to explain it, but eventhough a 7% seems similar to a 10% climb they feel totally different. The slower you go the harder it is to keep your bike upright. Maybe you can ride with the same power ratio on any climb but the reality is that to produce that power output your torque is going to change because of rpm that is going to require to hold the same power at the different gradient. I do not think a rider can go exactly putting the same power on a 10% than on a 7% climb. i will put myself as an example there is a 2mile climb @7% and a 12% climb and usually i can and must have a higher power output to finish the climbs in a slow enough speed that keeps me comfortable.

 

[jobiwan]

Again, you miss my point. Of course on steep climbs, slipstrream doesn't play much of arole and therefore weaker riders can't stay on the wheels of the better ones and fall back. But for the guys in the front, both clims are exaclty as tough as the other. If you go full throttle, you go full throttle.
The toughess of a mounatin is subjective, it's how hard you ride

Let's for the sake of argument say that a rider can go full throttle for the full length of any climb.

He goes full throttle on a 12 km climb at 5%.
He goes full throttle on a 12 km climb at 12%.

You can agree with me that the 12% climb will take longer.
And so the rider went full throttle for a longer period of time on the 12% climb.
And so he spent more energy, and so he is more tired at the end of it.
And so the rider will say that the 12% climb is tougher than the 5% climb.

 

[taiwan]

We need mountains, cause on the flat riders can just hang in the slipstream.
But Zoncolan is not a tougher climb then 7% gradient mountain. The toughness of a climb is deremianted by the time a cyclist rides at a certain power level. Not by the gradient.
Surface doesnt matter too. It's simply about the power level. Of course if a rider can safe energy in the slipstream, then the climb gtes easier.
But the difficulty of a climb is a purely subjctive isue.

These are contradictory. Also I suspect that the lack of ability to 'roll' on steeper gradients means pedalling is less smooth --> harder. Another thing is that when people refer to the difficulty of a climb, often they will be referring to the potential for gaps, which is greater on steeper gradients. Lasty None of this will help Tony Martin at the Tour, alas.

 

[saganftw]

the reason why cyclists say its tougher climb is because in a race contador will drop everyone and to reduce the time dmg other have to ride at 110% all the time...its the racing itself that makes the climb hard and because MTF are always seen as GC changing stages,leaders will attack and put other GC contenders into red numbers...so zoncolan is tougher than sestriere not so much because its steeper but because contador will attack and drop u

nobody thinks about flat stage as hard and newspaper wont call it epic stage because in the end cav will win anyway

ofc in sofaamateur cycling every climb is hard

 

[Ferminal]

I think I would prefer 10km at 6% than 5km at 12%.

 

[ManInFull]

So really we even don't need to have mountains, we just need to make them ride faster on the flats!!

The 1st bolded statement makes no sense, because it's a lot harder to ride at 6 watts/kilo on a 12% than it is on 5%; THERE'S A REASON THEY GO SLOWER ON STEEPER CLIMBS!

Why should it be harder? Of course 6 watt/kilo on a 10% gradient makes you go slower then 6watt/Kilo on 5%. But effort is exactly the same, and itÄs exactly as difficult.

Are you a cyclist? The challenge is that that it could more difficult to generate the same amount of power on the steeper climb. And it certainly might be more difficult to maintain the same amount of power over a longer period of time.

 

[jobiwan]

Are you a cyclist? The challenge is that that it could more difficult to generate the same amount of power on the steeper climb. And it certainly might be more difficult to maintain the same amount of power over a longer period of time.

I actually don't know who you're trying to quote, as Bavarianrider messed up a little bit of the syntax when quoting me, so it appeared as though I was the one saying all of that, even though I only said the 1st 2 paragraphs and he/she retorted with the 3rd one.

I've been trying to counter the ridiculous claims in the OP, hope that the messed up quoting doesn't make me look like a flip-flopper!!

 

[woodie]

Very often you see people argue that a certain climb is especially tough cause it has a very high gradient.
Especially in Giro vs Tour discussions many often argue that the Giro has the the tougher route, cuase the mountains in the Giro have usually a hogher gradient then does in the Tour.
However, inrality, at least for pro riders, it does not matter what gardient a climb has, The garadient of a climb does not determine how tough it is!
The only thing which determines the difficulty of a climb is how hard the cyclists ride.
If a cyclist rides at 6 watt/Kilo on a 5 % gardient, it is exactly as tough as if he rides at 6 Watt/Kilo on a 12%gradient. If a cyclist rides at 6 watt/Kilo on a 2 % gardient, and on 5 Watt/Kilo on a 15 % gardient, the 2 % mountain is actually tougher. The gradient of a climb simply does not determine the difficulty at all! It's how cyclists ride those mountains, that's what determinates the toughness of a climb! So please stop crying about how difficult a climb is
because of the gradient. The gradient doesn't mean anything!

Are you a cyclist? Do you race? Because it sounds like you have no idea what you are talking about. Go and ride a hill that's 4% at 5w/kg then ride a hill that's 10% at the same power output and tell us which one is harder.

How hard the riders race is a factor but it always hurts when climbing big mountains and the gradient is a huge factor.

Go and race a bike up some hills then cone back to us

 

[Timmy-loves-Rabo]

this is silly.

From personal experience, while on my bike, the steeper the hill the more I just wanna get off and cry.

agree that changing gradients can make for difficult climbing.

 

[rgmerk]

Slow cadence

One thing that makes the really steep climbs tough is that you run out of gears and end up having to mash, which hurts a lot more than spinning.

The Zoncolan has a kilometre of 19%-odd climbing. Putting in some numbers, even towards the front end of the Giro field, the riders can probably maintain no more than 8-9 km/h.

At that speed, even with a compact crank and a 32 on the back, they're mashing, with a cadence of around 65 RPM.

Trying to maintain near your maximum sustainable wattage while spinning a cadence that slow *hurts like a b*&^*&^. Particularly when you've already been riding for four, five, or six hours, over a big climb or two. Or three hours and a small climb, if you're an overambitious amateur like myself

 

[Bag_O_Wallet]

So really we even don't need to have mountains, we just need to make them ride faster on the flats!!

The 1st bolded statement makes no sense, because it's a lot harder to ride at 6 watts/kilo on a 12% than it is on 5%; THERE'S A REASON THEY GO SLOWER ON STEEPER CLIMBS!

Why should it be harder? Of course 6 watt/kilo on a 10% gradient makes you go slower then 6watt/Kilo on 5%. But effort is exactly the same, and itÄs exactly as difficult.

Your equation is not complex enough. It doesn't take into consideration dips and spikes in power throughout the pedal stroke that we all have - which become more visible on steep climbs. Nor does it take getting bogged down in a gear into consideration.... typically, on steep climbs your not going to be riding gears that have a single tooth difference - so, you might have to push a little/lot harder to keep the pedals going around after you've become bogged down, and hit a flat spot in your pedal stroke.

Now, add people you're competing with to that equation, and you've got a whole new layer of complexity and distraction from keeping that robotic watts/kilo ratio.

 

[Altitude]

The steeper the grade, the harder you are forced to work to drag your sorry a$$ over the summit, therefore harder. Nobody who races bikes would dispute this.

 

[Parrulo]

bavarianrider igonring the laws of physics? meh nothing new i guess

seriously bavarian rider needs to go and ride some hills.

around my house there a lot of short steep climbs, like btw 300m and 1k well above 15% and when i go on a ride i much prefer moving away from my town where i can find longer but much less step climbs, ofc i do those hills for fun anyway but. . . .

but i know what bavarianrider is trying to do here. he is juts trying to find a way to say that the tour is much tougher then the giro cus they race sooooooo muuuuuch haaarderrrrrr. ya a 5% climb at the tour is raced so fast that it puts the zoncolan to shame in terms of difficulty. i can't wait for the end of the tour when bavarianrider realizes that gravity also affects his boy tony martin and he finally shuts up with all his nonsense