The official Contador is a doper thread.

[byu123]

http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/20044184/ "German Doctor . . . Opertion Puerto . . . vials with 'A.C' written on them . . . blah blah blah." Similar to the specious clap trap you hear about Armstrong is a doper.

In the spirit of "The official Lance Armstrong hater thread."

For the record I believe both Armstrong and Contador to be clean.

But since the Armstrong haters cling to specious facts that Armstrong doped and worship Contador, not for what he is, but because he is the "Lance slayer" have at it . . .

 

[grimpeur]

I'm only going to say this once on this thread. Don't feed the trolls.

 

[El Imbatido]

This thread is just screaming out "BIG BOAT"

Can't wait

 

[jaylew]

I'm only going to say this once on this thread. Don't feed the trolls.

Agreed. Nothing to see here.

 

[Cobblestones]

Agreed. Nothing to see here.

+1

The only thing I want to add is that the German guy, Franke, isn't a crackpot. But I obviously don't know what's precisely in the documents.

 

[byu123]

+1

The only thing I want to add is that the German guy, Franke, isn't a crackpot. But I obviously don't know what's precisely in the documents.

So what does that mean? Does it mean Contador doped and cheated to win the 2007 TDF?

 

[stevepedo]

+1

The only thing I want to add is that the German guy, Franke, isn't a crackpot. But I obviously don't know what's precisely in the documents.

But are not all doping allegations made by evil people who don't believe in dreams?

 

[Anonymous]

But are not all doping allegations made by evil people who don't believe in dreams?

Yes, and we eat babies for dinner.

 

[BigBoat]

Yes, and we eat babies for dinner.

Dont forgot the horror/sci fi blood bank...And the scary needle sticks.

 

[Cobblestones]

So what does that mean? Does it mean Contador doped and cheated to win the 2007 TDF?

It means precisely what it says, Sherlock. Reading comprehension is your friend here.

 

[Belokki]

Why didn't you say Lance is being prosecuted for doping??

The thread would be overrun

 

[Belokki]

damm I've seen so much hypocrisy anywhere!!

 

[skippy254]

I have nothing to base it on but the "inner" cop in me would be suprised if AC is not a doper. I hate to even say it or type it. Unfortunately you just get these feelings about certain riders and in many cases some time goes by and the guy you think is cheating finally gets caught.

It is so frustrating for us cycling fans to constantly have to wonder who is cheating and who is not. It makes you want to believe in no one.

 

[BigBoat]

I have nothing to base it on but the "inner" cop in me would be suprised if AC is not a doper. I hate to even say it or type it. Unfortunately you just get these feelings about certain riders and in many cases some time goes by and the guy you think is cheating finally gets caught.

It is so frustrating for us cycling fans to constantly have to wonder who is cheating and who is not. It makes you want to believe in no one.

The entire top 50 for sure skip... Frozen packed red cells in Nitrogen freezer spaced evenly on racks ready to go for Le Tour...Damn I need to start eating peanut butter again.

 

[byu123]

The entire top 50 for sure skip... Frozen packed red cells in Nitrogen freezer spaced evenly on racks ready to go for Le Tour...Damn I need to start eating peanut butter again.

Its pathetic those that quote Kohl and Jascke as some sort of expert on doping in cycling. Ah . . . these cheaters make self serving statements after they are caught and we then take their word as gospel with respect to what anyone else is doing re doping. Once they are caught they have a lot to gain my casting aspersions on everyone else . . . "wa wa waaaa they are all doping too! It's not just me! I'm not uniquely bad. I'm just like everyone else . . . ." If you quote Kohl or Jascke and use that as some sort of proof of doping YOU ARE AN IDIOT!

A doper dopes because he is too weak or lazy to train and do what it takes to win without doping. Kohl and Jascke are worthless slugs. Fact of the matter is if you train at altitude for extended periods of time you can naturally alter your red blood cell count and gain a competitive advantage as a result. Those to lazy to spend the month of June at 8000 to 12000 feet training for 5-6 hours a day . . . dope. Those dedicated and tough enough to handle such training suck it up, do it, and have the physical ability to win without doping . . . a la Lance Armstrong. Its really very simple. Armstrong doesn't dope because he trains harder and smarter than anyone else. The lazy slugs who can't take such a regime cheat and dope in an effort to compete with the likes of Armstrong.

 

[biker jk]

A doper dopes because he is too weak or lazy to train and do what it takes to win without doping. Kohl and Jascke are worthless slugs. Fact of the matter is if you train at altitude for extended periods of time you can naturally alter your red blood cell count and gain a competitive advantage as a result. Those to lazy to spend the month of June at 8000 to 12000 feet training for 5-6 hours a day . . . dope. Those dedicated and tough enough to handle such training suck it up, do it, and have the physical ability to win without doping . . . a la Lance Armstrong. Its really very simple. Armstrong doesn't dope because he trains harder and smarter than anyone else. The lazy slugs who can't take such a regime cheat and dope in an effort to compete with the likes of Armstrong.

That's one of the best examples of literary fiction I have read for some time.

 

[rolfrae]

Its pathetic those that quote Kohl and Jascke as some sort of expert on doping in cycling. Ah . . . these cheaters make self serving statements after they are caught and we then take their word as gospel with respect to what anyone else is doing re doping. Once they are caught they have a lot to gain my casting aspersions on everyone else . . . "wa wa waaaa they are all doping too! It's not just me! I'm not uniquely bad. I'm just like everyone else . . . ." If you quote Kohl or Jascke and use that as some sort of proof of doping YOU ARE AN IDIOT!

A doper dopes because he is too weak or lazy to train and do what it takes to win without doping. Kohl and Jascke are worthless slugs. Fact of the matter is if you train at altitude for extended periods of time you can naturally alter your red blood cell count and gain a competitive advantage as a result. Those to lazy to spend the month of June at 8000 to 12000 feet training for 5-6 hours a day . . . dope. Those dedicated and tough enough to handle such training suck it up, do it, and have the physical ability to win without doping . . . a la Lance Armstrong. Its really very simple. Armstrong doesn't dope because he trains harder and smarter than anyone else. The lazy slugs who can't take such a regime cheat and dope in an effort to compete with the likes of Armstrong.

Did they freeze you in 2002 and defrost you yesterday?

 

[Buffalo Soldier]

I would love to see a thread for every pro-rider each, where we can prove that he is a doper. And maybe a thread for every sports doctor, every manager, and every drug.

Ow, and make it official threads.

 

[auscyclefan94]

why follow cycling???

Its pathetic those that quote Kohl and Jascke as some sort of expert on doping in cycling. Ah . . . these cheaters make self serving statements after they are caught and we then take their word as gospel with respect to what anyone else is doing re doping. Once they are caught they have a lot to gain my casting aspersions on everyone else . . . "wa wa waaaa they are all doping too! It's not just me! I'm not uniquely bad. I'm just like everyone else . . . ." If you quote Kohl or Jascke and use that as some sort of proof of doping YOU ARE AN IDIOT!

A doper dopes because he is too weak or lazy to train and do what it takes to win without doping. Kohl and Jascke are worthless slugs. Fact of the matter is if you train at altitude for extended periods of time you can naturally alter your red blood cell count and gain a competitive advantage as a result. Those to lazy to spend the month of June at 8000 to 12000 feet training for 5-6 hours a day . . . dope. Those dedicated and tough enough to handle such training suck it up, do it, and have the physical ability to win without doping . . . a la Lance Armstrong. Its really very simple. Armstrong doesn't dope because he trains harder and smarter than anyone else. The lazy slugs who can't take such a regime cheat and dope in an effort to compete with the likes of Armstrong.

Why do you "cycling fans" even follow cycling if all you care about is making up doping conspirscies for every single rider in the peleton. I agree with byu123, you would have to be naive to think that the top 50 riders all cheat. that's ludicrous. Some riders choose to take the easy way (kohl ) out and some riders put the time in and do the work. The tour de france is a metaphor for life. you have Riders who cut corners to win and Riders who work hard for results. Riders triumph and riders fail. Riders go up mountains and riders go down mountains (people have ups and downs). What i'm trying to say is that you are crazy to think that the whole peleton will be always be clean but you can't say that majority of riders are cheats. If you believe all top riders are dopers then go follow another sport because why are you really following cycling?

 

[biker77]

There are a lot of disgraced riders making a lot of noise about doping. Where are the "clean" riders standing up? Even LAs' denials sound like a lawyer scripted them.

 

[boalio]

Why do you "cycling fans" even follow cycling if all you care about is making up doping conspirscies for every single rider in the peleton. I agree with byu123, you would have to be naive to think that the top 50 riders all cheat. that's ludicrous. Some riders choose to take the easy way (kohl ) out and some riders put the time in and do the work. The tour de france is a metaphor for life. you have Riders who cut corners to win and Riders who work hard for results. Riders triumph and riders fail. Riders go up mountains and riders go down mountains (people have ups and downs). What i'm trying to say is that you are crazy to think that the whole peleton will be always be clean but you can't say that majority of riders are cheats. If you believe all top riders are dopers then go follow another sport because why are you really following cycling?

Sigh... okay heres the logic (this should be a sticky. its been discussed soo many times).

Lets say we take the 20 cyclists in the world. Lets assume you are correct and not all of them dope. lets say 50% are clean. 50% train hard, and 50% don't train hard, they just do dope. But they are all level-ish in the top 20. so what would happen if one of the 50% who are lazy and doped suddenly went "duh.. what if i did both? what if i trained hard AND doped". Suddenly he would be leaps and bounds ahead of everyone else, and would be a huge standout. That doesn't seem to be the case. So either the top 20 cyclists in the world are either all 100% clean, or all 100% doping. Which do you honestly believe is the case?

just to help the decision, lets assume that all 20 are clean. that means that all the dopers are actually slower than the top 20. this would be almost statistical proof that doping actually makes you slower. hmmm, something seems a little wrong here, yes?

Also, do you really in your heart think that a top 20 pro cyclist is doing dope so they don't have to train hard? Do you even understand the mindset of a pro cyclist? These guys will drive themselves in to the ground to train hard enough. No exceptions. these guys actually enjoy the pain.

 

[Anonymous]

Sigh... okay heres the logic (this should be a sticky. its been discussed soo many times).

Lets say we take the 20 cyclists in the world. Lets assume you are correct and not all of them dope. lets say 50% are clean. 50% train hard, and 50% don't train hard, they just do dope. But they are all level-ish in the top 20. so what would happen if one of the 50% who are lazy and doped suddenly went "duh.. what if i did both? what if i trained hard AND doped". Suddenly he would be leaps and bounds ahead of everyone else, and would be a huge standout. That doesn't seem to be the case. So either the top 20 cyclists in the world are either all 100% clean, or all 100% doping. Which do you honestly believe is the case?

just to help the decision, lets assume that all 20 are clean. that means that all the dopers are actually slower than the top 20. this would be almost statistical proof that doping actually makes you slower. hmmm, something seems a little wrong here, yes?

Also, do you really in your heart think that a top 20 pro cyclist is doing dope so they don't have to train hard? Do you even understand the mindset of a pro cyclist? These guys will drive themselves in to the ground to train hard enough. No exceptions. these guys actually enjoy the pain.

+1
I vote that this response should be "stickyed" for future reference.

Also add to the list"
http://nyvelocity.com/content/interviews/2009/michael-ashenden
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=the-doping-dilemma
http://outside.away.com/outside/bodywork/200311/200311_drug_test_1.html

Bro listed some books that should also be required reading on another thread. I would also suggest reading the testimony given by Betsy Andreau. Heck, throw in "Its not about the bike" just for comparison sake.

 

[Anonymous]

Sigh... okay heres the logic (this should be a sticky. its been discussed soo many times).

Lets say we take the 20 cyclists in the world. Lets assume you are correct and not all of them dope. lets say 50% are clean. 50% train hard, and 50% don't train hard, they just do dope. But they are all level-ish in the top 20. so what would happen if one of the 50% who are lazy and doped suddenly went "duh.. what if i did both? what if i trained hard AND doped". Suddenly he would be leaps and bounds ahead of everyone else, and would be a huge standout. That doesn't seem to be the case. So either the top 20 cyclists in the world are either all 100% clean, or all 100% doping. Which do you honestly believe is the case?

Even doped Kohl didn't win any tours. I believe there are mules.

The thing said so many times here is that EPO gave such a huge advantage that you either did it or you sucked wheels. The EPO era is over.

Now with passport about the only thing you might get away with is doping your own blood to get that kind of advantage. And now if you overdo the blood it will jack your crit too much and you passport profile trips you up.

Nothing you can do today can give the kind of 20% advantage of EPO that would make in mandatory.

I'd think what you are left with is the possiblily that you might get small changes in crit by taking blood with the risk that you overdo it and get caught. 2 points you may get away with, 5 points, 7 points, you probably won't.

At what point does it become too much trouble and risk to get your crit to 45 instead of 43 and do you get enough of a boost for it to matter?

 

[Anonymous]

The thing said so many times here is that EPO gave such a huge advantage that you either did it or you sucked wheels. The EPO era is over.

Now with passport about the only thing you might get away with is doping your own blood to get that kind of advantage. And now if you overdo the blood it will jack your crit too much and you passport profile trips you up.

Nothing you can do today can give the kind of 20% advantage of EPO that would make in mandatory.

I'd think what you are left with is the possiblily that you might get small changes in crit by taking blood with the risk that you overdo it and get caught. 2 points you may get away with, 5 points, 7 points, you probably won't.

At what point does it become too much trouble and risk to get your crit to 45 instead of 43 and do you get enough of a boost for it to matter?

I don't know because people in sports all over the world are looking for just that much of an advantage. Over the course of a 3 week race with some 200+ km stages, that little bit is quite advantageous. Over the course of a season it is even more significant.

To think that just because EPO can be detected, all doping has ended is fanciful garbage postulated by people who want others to just shut up and let whatever is happening remain under the rug.

 

[hfer07]

. Fact of the matter is if you train at altitude for extended periods of time you can naturally alter your red blood cell count and gain a competitive advantage as a result

My Colombian compatriots were born, raised & cycling trained in an average of 8,500 to 10,000 feet above sea level (2,500 to 3,200 meters a.s.l.) with natural crits of 46 up to 50 and so far there is only one who made podium--Fabio Parra got 3rd back in 88--then after the arrival of the EPO era, none of them have been able to even reach top ten- obviously excluding Santiago Botero, which is known for his doping connection to OP.

having stated that, could you explain the so called "advantage of training at high altitude" once more?