The perfect pedal stroke - Comparing Contador and Froome

[Captain_Obvious]

I post this thread in the clinic because my questions about pedaling stroke and pedaling efficiency are directly linked to clinic related topics. I’ll explain.

This is something that I’ve been wondering about for a long time now: how big of a factor is PEDALING STYLE; how much of a riders talent can also be attributed to their pedaling stroke and how much performance can be gained in that regard through specific training and technology.

To be more specific: I love Contador's style and by that I not only mean his character and racing tactics, but his actual pedaling style. I’m a fan for various other reasons, as are many here share, but for me it all began with his pedaling style. I enjoy watching him dance on the pedals; I admire how his pedal strokes are smooth and wide – it looks powerful and elegant, and I have always wondered how much of his (past) success has been due to his mastery of pedaling technique.

As for Froome: as difficult as I find it to be, I want to give him the benefit of the doubt and this is how I try to find some sort of justification. I lurk the Sky and Froome thread and I dont want beat a dead horse. And personally, I think that the current power outputs only border on being suspicious (***?) but are not beyond the realm of human ability (Vive Le Velo had a nice discussion on that topic yesterday). But don’t ask me to explain how one can remain in top form for months on end. I’ll leave that outside the scope of this thread if possible.

So following the above mentioned line of thought, and doing my utmost best to try and hold some faith in cycling, and to be honest: in trying to believe Sky, I wonder whether the reason that Froome and co. show such strength may for a good part be due to some sort of special attention that Sky has been giving towards achieving the perfect pedal stroke. I cant help but think that there is a lot to be gained in that regard.

And as a side note, didn’t all the greats have a great technique? I even remember that he-who’s-name-shall-not-be-mentioned used to display some beautiful pedal strokes in his TT’s - legs moving up and down like cilinders, or was that just the dope? As based on my own personal experience I know that the more tired I get, the harder it is to maintain the smooth stroke, and also, I know that on days that my pedaling stroke is spot on (as it can get), it feels like I have wings. I get far less tired and It feels like a whole new world is opening to me. But I’m a mere mortal and can’t help but wonder how much more there is to be gained in that regard.

So I guess I’m calling for a discussion here. What are your thoughts. Next to the internal physical aspects of cycling, is pedaling technique and style underrated?

As we saw today on the Venteux, Contador and Froome have completely different styles.

 

[131313]

So following the above mentioned line of thought, and doing my utmost best to try and hold some faith in cycling, and to be honest: in trying to believe Sky, I wonder whether the reason that Froome and co. show such strength may for a good part be due to some sort of special attention that Sky has been giving towards achieving the perfect pedal stroke. I cant help but think that there is a lot to be gained in that regard.

And as a side note, didn’t all the greats have a great technique? I even remember that he-who’s-name-shall-not-be-mentioned used to display some beautiful pedal strokes in his TT’s - legs moving up and down like cilinders, or was that just the dope? As based on my own personal experience I know that the more tired I get, the harder it is to maintain the smooth stroke, and also, I know that on days that my pedaling stroke is spot on (as it can get), it feels like I have wings. I get far less tired and It feels like a whole new world is opening to me. But I’m a mere mortal and can’t help but wonder how much more there is to be gained in that regard.

There are mountains of research which demonstrate that pedaling efficiency is determined by biology, not pedaling mechanics. You can't "work on it" to pedal more efficiently. And generally, the smoother one's pedal stroke, i.e. the more force is applied evenly, the less efficient it is. The most efficient riders push down harder.

It's a nice thought, and I understand "wanting to believe" and all that, but you're going down the rabbit hole on this one.

 

[More Strides than Rides]

There are mountains of research which demonstrate that pedaling efficiency is determined by biology, not pedaling mechanics. You can't "work on it" to pedal more efficiently.

Can you explain this more? I don't know enough about topics like this

I imagine that it means to say that there is no magic number of rpms, and it depends on the individual. If that's the case, couldn't work be done to maximize that individual's mechanics? Is that what the OP is talking about?

 

[131313]

Can you explain this more? I don't know enough about topics like this

I imagine that it means to say that there is no magic number of rpms, and it depends on the individual. If that's the case, couldn't work be done to maximize that individual's mechanics? Is that what the OP is talking about?

No, "mechanics" doesn't really have much to do with it. Pedaling efficiency is mostly determined by muscle fiber type composition, not mechanics (unless you have something grossly wrong). If you go to pubmed and search under "cycling pedaling efficiency" you'll find more than you ever want to know.

This is a subject that has been beaten to death and back by folks looking to either find an Indiana Jones-type holy chalice, or looking to sell a product to help improve efficiency.

 

[hfer07]

Not this Sh!t again.... this is so 1999-2005...

FYI back in the day Jeffrey P. Broker was trying to bvllsh!t the world with his cunning theory of LA being "25%" more efficient on pedal mechanics than the rest of the peloton........

 

[Almeisan]

You can't improve pedal efficiency. Also, basically everyone pedals with the same efficiency. Pro cyclists, elderly people that pedal a bike once a week.
The only people that have reduced pedaling efficiency are amateur cyclists that try to pedal 'funny' in hopes of improving efficiency and 'spin like Lance'. But I guess not that that myth has shattered, there's few people like those left.

 

[Captain_Obvious]

I’m not ready to drop the subject quite yet. Rather than pedalling efficiency, I want to focus more on pedalling style. I really doubt whether every rider uses the same technique. Riders can vary in how even their leg output is. I know for example that Boogie used to have a less than 1% variation in output between his left and right leg. Contador seems to utilize more of his upper body. Some riders are better at using their ankling technique, and so on. In that regard, I wonder if advantage can be gained.

Surely a rider who starts cycling at an early age and is coached properly will have better technique than an average cat 5 racer starting at a later age, at which point the body is less balanced.

Add: looking at todays stage and how Froome accelerated without changing gear, rather, simply increasing to a much higher RPM makes me wonder about how much directed effort has gone into developing that...

It would be intressting to analyse footage from Froome pre and post Sky, and to look at his style.

 

[horsinabout]

A few months ago I noticed that Froome's saddle was quite low. I actually mentioned it in a post and thought it looked too low. Today I now know why. Froome and to some extent Port have a very high cadence (fast pedalling action) you need a lower saddle to cope with higher cadence. Now this is souplesse and it is what sprinters train for, which is why they train using small gears. But it also requires very fit fast twitch muscle fibres. The thing with today's ride on Mont Vonteux is the acceleration done by Froome once Port pulled off, it was quite literally unbelievable. And it completely blew Contador away. Now you mention the power out puts as being believable, well I don't know, but this is not the point - it is Froome's acceleration that needs to be questioned?? It is this that is the unbelievable thing going on here with Froome - it was like a motorbike.

 

[Billie]

It is this that is the unbelievable thing going on here with Froome - it was like a motorbike.

http://www.up-shack.com/assets/up/10866121d68f8b9af608cb16b440c8b4.swf

 

[armchairclimber]

It's the most notable thing about Froome's riding style....and not just in the accelerations. He was clearly turning over a lower gear, quickly on the lower slopes. His acceleration was bizarre to watch.... not so much an increase in the power of the stroke, just a rapid acceleration of the stroke.

It reminded me of watching a really good mountain runner .... lot's of quick, short strides and an avoidance of exerting too much power in each stroke.

He might be doping...he might not. He certainly rides the hills with a technique that stands out from everyone else. It looks awful compared to Contadors dancing with full bodyweight on the pedals...but perhaps it's more efficient.

 

[horsinabout]

http://www.up-shack.com/assets/up/10866121d68f8b9af608cb16b440c8b4.swf

They are going to be marketing these for the end of the tour complete with added yellow jersey, and call them the Vroome Vroome Froome!!!!!

http://youtu.be/mT3vfSQePcs

Cute though don't you think? I want one

 

[horsinabout]

It's the most notable thing about Froome's riding style....and not just in the accelerations. He was clearly turning over a lower gear, quickly on the lower slopes. His acceleration was bizarre to watch.... not so much an increase in the power of the stroke, just a rapid acceleration of the stroke.

It reminded me of watching a really good mountain runner .... lot's of quick, short strides and an avoidance of exerting too much power in each stroke.

He might be doping...he might not. He certainly rides the hills with a technique that stands out from everyone else. It looks awful compared to Contadors dancing with full bodyweight on the pedals...but perhaps it's more efficient.

In bold - Agree completely

With your second point, I think we are beyond asking the question are they doping or not? It is more a question of what the hell are doing?

 

[armchairclimber]

In bold - Agree completely

With your second point, I think we are beyond asking the question are they doping or not? It is more a question of what the hell are doing?

You might be. I'm still asking.

 

[Captain_Obvious]

It's the most notable thing about Froome's riding style....and not just in the accelerations. He was clearly turning over a lower gear, quickly on the lower slopes. His acceleration was bizarre to watch.... not so much an increase in the power of the stroke, just a rapid acceleration of the stroke.

It reminded me of watching a really good mountain runner .... lot's of quick, short strides and an avoidance of exerting too much power in each stroke.

He might be doping...he might not. He certainly rides the hills with a technique that stands out from everyone else. It looks awful compared to Contadors dancing with full bodyweight on the pedals...but perhaps it's more efficient.

Interesting post. Today was indeed a good show of the different styles.

And lets also mention that Froome rides a very oval Rotor crank. This is post Sky correct? How different was his style before?

 

[More Strides than Rides]

No, "mechanics" doesn't really have much to do with it. Pedaling efficiency is mostly determined by muscle fiber type composition, not mechanics (unless you have something grossly wrong). If you go to pubmed and search under "cycling pedaling efficiency" you'll find more than you ever want to know.

This is a subject that has been beaten to death and back by folks looking to either find an Indiana Jones-type holy chalice, or looking to sell a product to help improve efficiency.

Thats the exact kind of answer I was looking for. Thanks

 

[Hawkwood]

A few months ago I noticed that Froome's saddle was quite low. I actually mentioned it in a post and thought it looked too low. Today I now know why. Froome and to some extent Port have a very high cadence (fast pedalling action) you need a lower saddle to cope with higher cadence. Now this is souplesse and it is what sprinters train for, which is why they train using small gears. But it also requires very fit fast twitch muscle fibres. The thing with today's ride on Mont Vonteux is the acceleration done by Froome once Port pulled off, it was quite literally unbelievable. And it completely blew Contador away. Now you mention the power out puts as being believable, well I don't know, but this is not the point - it is Froome's acceleration that needs to be questioned?? It is this that is the unbelievable thing going on here with Froome - it was like a motorbike.

Very low saddle, and looked as if he was over-revving during his attacks, very odd style.

 

[Almeisan]

Interesting post. Today was indeed a good show of the different styles.

And lets also mention that Froome rides a very oval Rotor crank. This is post Sky correct? How different was his style before?

Good sample of Froome's climbing style in 2009
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEGpv0xn0E8#t=7m022

Be sure to watch until at least past 8:20

 

[Elagabalus]

Mods,

This thread should be sent down to the Form and Fitness Frank Day Hell where it belongs ...

No good can come of this ...

 

[Zweistein]

It's the most notable thing about Froome's riding style....and not just in the accelerations. He was clearly turning over a lower gear, quickly on the lower slopes. His acceleration was bizarre to watch.... not so much an increase in the power of the stroke, just a rapid acceleration of the stroke.

It reminded me of watching a really good mountain runner .... lot's of quick, short strides and an avoidance of exerting too much power in each stroke.

He might be doping...he might not. He certainly rides the hills with a technique that stands out from everyone else. It looks awful compared to Contadors dancing with full bodyweight on the pedals...but perhaps it's more efficient.

Stands out from everyone else? Are you serious? It is wretched like a club rider that doesn't have his bike setup right.

Every time someone latches onto something to explain a performance. With Lance, it was his cadence because that hasn't been done before and he was breaking new ground.

Oops. I forgot about Charly Gaul from 60 years ago. Or Andy Hepsten 20 years ago. The whole thing with cadence is bunk and the only thing you get out of it is that if it is too slow it places more strain on our muscles.

 

[Angliru]

There are mountains of research which demonstrate that pedaling efficiency is determined by biology, not pedaling mechanics. You can't "work on it" to pedal more efficiently. And generally, the smoother one's pedal stroke, i.e. the more force is applied evenly, the less efficient it is. The most efficient riders push down harder.

It's a nice thought, and I understand "wanting to believe" and all that, but you're going down the rabbit hole on this one.

Sorry if this has been addresses earlier but it was my understanding that riding a fixed gear is one of the best ways to smooth out one's pedal stroke and thus make one more efficient. Is this just an old school myth?

 

[TheBean]

There are mountains of research which demonstrate that pedaling efficiency is determined by biology, not pedaling mechanics. You can't "work on it" to pedal more efficiently. And generally, the smoother one's pedal stroke, i.e. the more force is applied evenly, the less efficient it is. The most efficient riders push down harder.

I disagree that pedaling efficiency is a variable of performance that cannot be improved. The gains might be tiny, but they are achievable through mechanics.

We all know riders of different heights use different length crank arms. The reason is so that the bike and the rider work efficiently together.

Riders also use wedge shims in their shoes, or between the shoe and the cleat in order to improve their mechanical efficiency as well as to reduce the risk of over-use injury.

A proper bike fit yields benefits to efficiency as well. If this were not the case,

The whole point of toe clips, and then clipless pedals/shoes is to improve pedalling efficiency.

 

[classic1]

I'm more concerned about his horrible style than whether he is on the gear. Cycling is supposed to be beautiful. Froome looks like a gibbon humping a ball. If I've insulted any gibbons out there I'm sincerely sorry.

 

[131313]

Sorry if this has been addresses earlier but it was my understanding that riding a fixed gear is one of the best ways to smooth out one's pedal stroke and thus make one more efficient. Is this just an old school myth?

Yes: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17545890

One of many examples. "smoother" pedal strokes are generally less efficient as long as your wheels have traction. Elite mountain bikers tend to self-select smoother pedal strokes, but that's a different issue. Riding a fixed gear makes you good at riding a fixed gear.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

The whole point of toe clips, and then clipless pedals/shoes is to improve pedalling efficiency.

Is it?

Keep in mind that efficiency is the ratio of energy delivered to the cranks as a proportion of energy metabolised. To me the purpose of such pedals is to provide security when pedalling. Plenty of riders can attain similar sustainable power output with flat bed pedals as they can with cleats.

efficiency most likely does change, a little, over many many years of competition and training, but by and large there is not a big difference in the average efficiency of club level and professional cyclists. The latter, while they might be a little more efficient due to their slow-twitch dominance and huge volume of riding, simply produce more power for longer.

 

[42x16ss]

Stands out from everyone else? Are you serious? It is wretched like a club rider that doesn't have his bike setup right.

That's why it stands out. He looks like a middle aged fred struggling up the local 4% "KOM". All knees and elbows, even Evans looks better out of the saddle

This is what has always annoyed me about the game changing doping products and techniques. Ugly first rate climbers like Froome, Botero, Olano, Evans and Soler were rarities pre epo.

Anyone who doesn't agree needs to go and find some old footage of guys like Merckx, Bahamontes, Van Impe, Poulidor, Hinault, Lemond - just about any of the great pre-epo climbers. Their styles were almost always excellent and bear almost no semblance to Froome's.