The Polish XMas Troll - Formerly "Lance - Father of the Modern Euro Pro TT Position"

[Polish]

Roland Rat posted this amazing picture of Lance in his Time Trial postion
(see below). I would think the pic was taken some time in 1987.

Back then, the Euro Pros were racing using State of the Art Cowhorns:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0uxqvKIXSs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBIV2gXV2tM

Compare the the euro pro positions to the position of young Lance.
Lance rocking an Aero bar. Better Aero Helmet. Texas Wind Tunnel tests.
And a very prescient comment at the bottom of the pic lol.

Sure, some say that Lance was not a TTer, but was transformed into one by taking EPO. LOL.
Could not be further from the truth, as Cyclo History will show

 

[theswordsman]

So why did you put this in the Clinic?

Merry Christmas, everyone

 

[Digger]

Roland Rat posted this amazing picture of Lance in his Time Trial postion
(see below). I would think the pic was taken some time in 1987.

Back then, the Euro Pros were racing using State of the Art Cowhorns:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0uxqvKIXSs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBIV2gXV2tM

Compare the the euro pro positions to the position of young Lance.
Lance rocking an Aero bar. Better Aero Helmet. Texas Wind Tunnel tests.
And a very prescient comment at the bottom of the pic lol.

Sure, some say that Lance was not a TTer, but was transformed into one by taking EPO. LOL.
Could not be further from the truth, as Cyclo History will show

Yeah losing on average 6 mins a fifty km time trial before his meeting with Ferrari really denotes a TTer extraordinaire. He even admits it to Walsh in an interview he did with him for his book Inside the Tour de France - that TT is something that was ruining him in terms of GC.

 

[pedaling squares]

Roland Rat posted this amazing picture of Lance in his Time Trial postion
(see below). I would think the pic was taken some time in 1987.

Back then, the Euro Pros were racing using State of the Art Cowhorns:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0uxqvKIXSs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBIV2gXV2tM

Compare the the euro pro positions to the position of young Lance.
Lance rocking an Aero bar. Better Aero Helmet. Texas Wind Tunnel tests.
And a very prescient comment at the bottom of the pic lol.


Sure, some say that Lance was not a TTer, but was transformed into one by taking EPO. LOL.
Could not be further from the truth, as Cyclo History will show

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmR9k8UAohs

 

[ricara]

Man, are you dumb!

Keep on polishing the ball, there.

That is one of the worst TT positions ever seen on a successful rider. The only reason it worked is because he was doped to the gills, not because it was a good position.

(For some reason, I am not able to post attachments. So instead I will have to provide URLs. Sorry, it's not my fault....)

A rider with a good position on the bike has a flat back, not a hunch back.

Keeping your back flat opens up you lungs so that you can breathe. (Breathing is pretty important when TT'ing!)

It's also far more aerodynamic to ride with a flat back. When riding a non-recumbent bike, the biggest enemy is catching the wind with your upper body. Then it is forced down to your hips. Wind is also rising up off of your angled thighs into the same area. All of this air has to go somewhere. The only place it can go is around your hips.

One solution is to have super narrow hips. Ron Hayman on the 7-11 team was like that and even though he was a good six inches taller than me I hated riding behind him as there was no draft to be had.

Most people can't narrow their hips, no matter how much exercise they do (even the ThighMaster doesn't help).

http://www.thighmaster.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/suzanne-somers1.jpg

So the only workable option is to get your back flat, then lower your trunk until everything is "hidden" behind your shoulders. All of the top riders had this position.

http://www.rankopedia.com/CandidatePix/20481.gif

http://www.outsideallday.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/Greg-lemond_tour-de-france.jpg

http://www.cesenaticoholidays.com/images/sport/pantani.jpg

http://www.bikecrave.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/eddy-merckx-trading-card.jpg

Not some stupid hunchback position! Not only was your "hero" a cheating doper, he was a loser with a crappy coach and horrible position.

 

[Hugh Januss]

 

[oldschoolnik]

Here's a picture of some "Fred" with some Aero bars in 1986

http://www.ultracycling.com/about/hof_ppenseyres.html

 

[Anonymous]

 

[Polish]

Keep on polishing the ball, there.

That is one of the worst TT positions ever seen on a successful rider. The only reason it worked is because he was doped to the gills, not because it was a good position.

Not some stupid hunchback position! Not only was your "hero" a cheating doper, he was a loser with a crappy coach and horrible position.

Couple thing ricara....

Firstly, the "Egg Position" is a classic and powerful position used by the Greats thoughout cycling history....

Secondly, it is important to ride in a position that is most effective for a given rider's flexibility or super mutant body framework.

 

[Polish]

http://www.ultracycling.com/about/hof_ppenseyres.html

I was passed by Peter on many rides in the 90's lol.

But he never made it to the Euro Pro's.

Show me a Euro Pro on TT bars before Lance....

 

[Digger]

I was passed by Peter on many rides in the 90's lol.

But he never made it to the Euro Pro's.

Show me a Euro Pro on TT bars before Lance....

So if the position was so good etc....why was he losing so much time? And why did he admit to Walsh that it was killing him?

 

[hrotha]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmR9k8UAohs

You guys are aware that Armstrong's TT was quite decent that day, right? I mean, the classification of that stage was:

1. Miguel Indurain: 1hr 15min 58sec
2. Tony Rominger @ 2min
3. Armand De Las Cuevas @ 4min 22sec
4. Thierry Marie @ 4min 45sec
5. Chris Boardman @ 5min 27sec
6. Bjarne Riis @ 5min 33sec
7. Thomas Davy @ 5min 35sec
8. Abraham Olano @ 5min 45sec
9. Arturas Kasputis @ 6min 1sec
10. Piotr Ugramov @ 6min 4sec

...and Armstrong lost 6:23 if I'm not mistaken, and reamined 10th in the GC after that. Not the results of a top TT specialist, of course (although he didn't lose that much to someone like Olano, who was a year older and was having a bit of a breakthrough season), but not the disaster you guys are portraying it like.

 

[Escarabajo]

You guys are aware that Armstrong's TT was quite decent that day, right? I mean, the classification of that stage was:

1. Miguel Indurain: 1hr 15min 58sec
2. Tony Rominger @ 2min
3. Armand De Las Cuevas @ 4min 22sec
4. Thierry Marie @ 4min 45sec
5. Chris Boardman @ 5min 27sec
6. Bjarne Riis @ 5min 33sec
7. Thomas Davy @ 5min 35sec
8. Abraham Olano @ 5min 45sec
9. Arturas Kasputis @ 6min 1sec
10. Piotr Ugramov @ 6min 4sec

...and Armstrong lost 6:23 if I'm not mistaken, and reamined 10th in the GC after that. Not the results of a top TT specialist, of course (although he didn't lose that much to someone like Olano, who was a year older and was having a bit of a breakthrough season), but not the disaster you guys are portraying it like.

To be honest you hit on the nail. I mean, Boardman lost 5' 27".

It looks like Indurain and Rominger were simply above the field. I guess that was before the rest on the riders perfected the usage of EPO. Besides Indurain was very talented. So:

Talented Rider + EPO = Superman
Above Average Rider + Renegade Doping = loose 6' 23"
Above Average Rider + Ferrari Tuning + Focus + Team Doping + UCI support = Another Superman

 

[D-Queued]

Couple thing ricara....

Firstly, the "Egg Position" is a classic and powerful position used by the Greats thoughout cycling history....

Secondly, it is important to ride in a position that is most effective for a given rider's flexibility or super mutant body framework. ...

Hardly.

Lance's drag numbers are not impressive (I have the same drag and am much taller and heavier).

Lance also has a very bad (TT) habit of looking down. This was one of the things the special Giro helmet design tried to overcome.

BTW - Indurain's Helmet from circa 1992 was almost as fast as the special 2003 Lance helmet... tests at UW "showed only modest differences between the two designs. And, Indurain's helmet was ANSI approved. Current UCI approved helmets are slower.

I was passed by Peter on many rides in the 90's lol.

But he never made it to the Euro Pro's.

Show me a Euro Pro on TT bars before Lance....

Lance was soooo much the copycat and trying to play catch-up.

Aero bars are a recent addition to road racing time trials, with Greg LeMond first using them in the 1989 Tour de France.

Nice try.

hrotha,

The fact that Lance was actually trying to post a good time in that TT, and not dogging it, is an indictment of his TT ability not any kind of support of it.

Dave.

 

[MD FACG FACP]

Someone bought a Trek bike in 1999, and never heard of Greg LeMond.

 

[Polish]

Lance was soooo much the copycat and trying to play catch-up.
.

Copycat? Lance was the first of the Euro Pros to use aero bars.

Sure, we all know Greg used them in the 1989 Tour de France, some say unfairly...

But Lance was riding on aero bars legally in 1987. Before Greg.
Before any of the Euro Pros for that matter. Before Big Mig.

Yes, there were plenty of copycats.
That is the point of my OP lol.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HorLQHQ3pMc&feature=related
.
.
.

 

[Oldman]

LemondLemondLemondLemondLemond

not the little tainted titmouse prince

 

[Polish]

Or maybe it was Chris Boardman?

Anyone know when Chris first used aero bars on a road TT?

 

[FKLance]

Keep on polishing the ball, there.

That is one of the worst TT positions ever seen on a successful rider. The only reason it worked is because he was doped to the gills, not because it was a good position.

(For some reason, I am not able to post attachments. So instead I will have to provide URLs. Sorry, it's not my fault....)

A rider with a good position on the bike has a flat back, not a hunch back.

Keeping your back flat opens up you lungs so that you can breathe. (Breathing is pretty important when TT'ing!)

It's also far more aerodynamic to ride with a flat back. When riding a non-recumbent bike, the biggest enemy is catching the wind with your upper body. Then it is forced down to your hips. Wind is also rising up off of your angled thighs into the same area. All of this air has to go somewhere. The only place it can go is around your hips.

One solution is to have super narrow hips. Ron Hayman on the 7-11 team was like that and even though he was a good six inches taller than me I hated riding behind him as there was no draft to be had.

Most people can't narrow their hips, no matter how much exercise they do (even the ThighMaster doesn't help).

http://www.thighmaster.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/suzanne-somers1.jpg

So the only workable option is to get your back flat, then lower your trunk until everything is "hidden" behind your shoulders. All of the top riders had this position.

http://www.rankopedia.com/CandidatePix/20481.gif

http://www.outsideallday.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/Greg-lemond_tour-de-france.jpg

http://www.cesenaticoholidays.com/images/sport/pantani.jpg

http://www.bikecrave.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/eddy-merckx-trading-card.jpg

Not some stupid hunchback position! Not only was your "hero" a cheating doper, he was a loser with a crappy coach and horrible position.

I believe it is not enough to have a flat back. When you go lower, you have to go more forward because of the hip angle. Hip angle is what it's all about.

To me it looks like Lance actually has a flexible back, so his hip angle is very good, he can be very powerful and at the same time reasonably aero (although without that weird hump in the back). If you want a powerful position that is aero enough you need a flexible body. I say people with a perfectly flat back starting from the hip are not using their body good enough. A lot of cyclist's power comes from the lower back area..

 

[Escarabajo]

Keep on polishing the ball, there.

That is one of the worst TT positions ever seen on a successful rider. The only reason it worked is because he was doped to the gills, not because it was a good position.

(For some reason, I am not able to post attachments. So instead I will have to provide URLs. Sorry, it's not my fault....)

A rider with a good position on the bike has a flat back, not a hunch back.

....

Streamlines around a bike rider. Lower position minimizes lift but would increase friction to the pavement or would be difficult to breathe (I am just speculating, I am really not an expert on this). I guess there is an equilibrium point somewhere in there:

 

[scribe]

So why did you put this in the Clinic?

Merry Christmas, everyone

Best to cut to the chase.

 

[sniper]

Streamlines around a bike rider. Lower position minimizes lift but would increase friction to the pavement or would be difficult to breathe (I am just speculating, I am really not an expert on this). I guess there is an equilibrium point somewhere in there:

the matter of the fact is that on the photo posted by Polish, LA looks like the frikkin hunchback of Notre Dam. Even if it were aerodanymic or otherwise beneficial, it's not really elegant.

On the other hand, the flat-back-optimality theory is not waterproof, as TT riders nowadays don't look like they necessarily prefer a flat-back, but tend more towards the egg position, though not as extreme as LA on that photo.

 

[ricara]

I say people with a perfectly flat back starting from the hip are not using their body good enough.

Excuse me while I throw up.

So you are saying that Eddy, Greg, Marco, and Laurent didn't know how to use their "body good enough"???

You are a complete knucklehead.

PS, I got bored of looking up photos. Go look up some photos of Bernard sometime and tell me what you see. Another 5-time winner of the Tour that didn't know how to use his "body good enough"??? Then go look at photos of Rebecca Twigg, World Pursuit Champion.

 

[ricara]

Streamlines around a bike rider. Lower position minimizes lift but would increase friction to the pavement or would be difficult to breathe (I am just speculating, I am really not an expert on this). I guess there is an equilibrium point somewhere in there:

Thank you for the graphic. It makes my point exactly. The main drag is the air that is trapped by the hips. Look at the diagram. There is no air that makes it through the rider's ****. That is over half of the total drag.

The "guy" in the image has a good position. If he raises his shoulders he will trap more air in his hips and increase his drag. It's that simple.

Your speculation about "increasing friction to the pavement" is simply nonsense. As is your speculation on breathing. Breathing is improved by flattening the back. When it is hunched up liked Wonderboy, the lungs cannot fill. But he compensates by filling his veins with dope.

 

[ricara]

On the other hand, the flat-back-optimality theory is not waterproof, as TT riders nowadays don't look like they necessarily prefer a flat-back, but tend more towards the egg position, though not as extreme as LA on that photo.

Sheer laziness on the part of the riders.

How many people do you know that stand with a perfect posture? Very few, because it's hard work. You can train your muscles so that it becomes virtually automatic.

The same is true of bicycling. Your position is not determined by where you put your seat and bars. It is determined much more on how you hold your body. Look at Lance. He never had a coach that told him how important it was to have a flat back. Look at Bernard, Greg, Marco, Laurent, Rebecca, Eddy, and many others -- either they had good coaches (NOT Chris Carmichael!!!), or they figured it out themselves.

There are plenty of "managers" and "directeurs sportif" and "doctors", but not so many good coaches.