Teams & Riders The Remco Evenepoel is the next Eddy Merckx thread

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Well now that you mention it, if Bissegger ever wants to become WC, this year could be it, with a toddler distance it should suit him. I can only hope we won't see short TT's like this every other year.
I'd say a bigger reason this year needs to be it is the position rule changes. Any sub 180cm rider is going to be at a significant disadvantage relative to the current rule set next year. Remco, Bissegger, Hayter, Pogacar and Roglic should all be getting a bit worse next year.

Also, to be honest, I don't think short TT specialists are really a thing. Sprinters will be better at proper pure prologues, but the fact that almost every emerging TT'er gets labelled as a short TT specialist should probably show something is wrong with people's thinking. Ganna was labelled as a short TT specialist, Kung often still is even though he put in a massive performance at the Olympics considering it was crazy hilly, and that TT was almost an hour. In the reverse, Dennis is often labelled as a long TT specialist because he won two long worlds during his peak years, even though at his peak he was the best in the world at short TT's as well.

Most TT's in general are short, and particularly lower-level TT's tend to be short, so great but not world-class TT'ers tend to win them. Therefore, they always get labelled as short TT specialists until (if) they can make the jump to being one of the best in the world.
 
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I'd say a bigger reason this year needs to be it is the position rule changes. Any sub 180cm rider is going to be at a significant disadvantage relative to the current rule set next year. Remco, Bissegger, Hayter, Pogacar and Roglic should all be getting a bit worse next year.

Also, to be honest, I don't think short TT specialists are really a thing. Sprinters will be better at proper pure prologues, but the fact that almost every emerging TT'er gets labelled as a short TT specialist should probably show something is wrong with people's thinking. Ganna was labelled as a short TT specialist, Kung often still is even though he put in a massive performance at the Olympics considering it was crazy hilly, and that TT was almost an hour. In the reverse, Dennis is often labelled as a long TT specialist because he won two long worlds during his peak years, even though at his peak he was the best in the world at short TT's as well.

Most TT's in general are short, and particularly lower-level TT's tend to be short, so great but not world-class TT'ers tend to win them. Therefore, they always get labelled as short TT specialists until (if) they can make the jump to being one of the best in the world.
Evenepoel was 19 in his first pro season when he got silver in one of the longest WCC TTs of the past decade. He was young and emerging. Maybe short TT specialists isn't a thing, but long TT specialists is. While Küng was more impressive than expected at the OG, he so far has 1 medal (bronze) in 7 WCCs. That's only once he managed to finish top 3. While at shorter TT's he is almost a lock for a top 3 spot. He won the ECC and two weeks later wasn't on the podium on a TT double the length, while two of the guys he beat at the ECC, were. The shorter the distance, the more competitors, because the distance is less extreme and more pro's can manage their watts and maintain an aero position over 30 minutes, than they can over 1hr+. So in a sense i agree that ''short'' + ''specialist'' is somewhat of a contradiction, but that doesn't mean certain riders can not excel in longer TT's where other riders pass.

I'm more interested in what rules will change exactly. I've heard of changes coming, but i have yet to read what exactly will change.
 
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At this rate, it takes tad over 3 yrs when this thread is on par with Froome thread replys. Just saying. :cool:
Better all this talk about a rider who has been winning since a very young age than someone who spent years as a nobody before magically becoming a world beater. Much happier to be discussing attacking, exciting, riders with panache, than someone as excruciating to watch as the Escartin of the new millennia.
 
Yeah it's like Valverde collecting zero UCI-points when he was 22, collecting nada year before that. And year before that. But...let's see after 17 yrs, maybe Remco then has scored 50 career wins more than Alejandro :D Froome and Valverde have quite same curve on points when their careers started rocket upwards, Froome 3 yrs later.
 
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Evenepoel was 19 in his first pro season when he got silver in one of the longest WCC TTs of the past decade. He was young and emerging. Maybe short TT specialists isn't a thing, but long TT specialists is. While Küng was more impressive than expected at the OG, he so far has 1 medal (bronze) in 7 WCCs. That's only once he managed to finish top 3. While at shorter TT's he is almost a lock for a top 3 spot. He won the ECC and two weeks later wasn't on the podium on a TT double the length, while two of the guys he beat at the ECC, were. The shorter the distance, the more competitors, because the distance is less extreme and more pro's can manage their watts and maintain an aero position over 30 minutes, than they can over 1hr+. So in a sense i agree that ''short'' + ''specialist'' is somewhat of a contradiction, but that doesn't mean certain riders can not excel in longer TT's where other riders pass.

I'm more interested in what rules will change exactly. I've heard of changes coming, but i have yet to read what exactly will change.
180cm+ riders will get 3cm extra reach, and 20mm more (20%) stack between their elbow pads and top of their extensions. 190cm+ riders get no extra reach compared to the current regs but 40mm (40%) more stack. Also on the Evenepoel bit, I would say that the 2019 worlds was extraordinarily weak with WVA and Dumoulin out, Campenaerts crashing and Roglic having a complete off day. You could equally point to times Evenepeol seems to have gotten worse with longer TT's. For example, last year's Euros and Worlds compared to Ganna. Also on the Kung medal point, it seems worth noting that Kung wasn't exactly seen as a top 3 rider in the world for any distance before 2020. He also had an off-day at worlds last year imo.

Considering we have his power file, he just couldn't even come close to hitting his power plan, went out at around 470w to the first check did ~430w the rest of the ride. If he'd hit his pacing plan he would have been ~WVA's time.
 
180cm+ riders will get 3cm extra reach, and 20mm more (20%) stack between their elbow pads and top of their extensions. 190cm+ riders get no extra reach compared to the current regs but 40mm (40%) more stack. Also on the Evenepoel bit, I would say that the 2019 worlds was extraordinarily weak with WVA and Dumoulin out, Campenaerts crashing and Roglic having a complete off day. You could equally point to times Evenepeol seems to have gotten worse with longer TT's. For example, last year's Euros and Worlds compared to Ganna. Also on the Kung medal point, it seems worth noting that Kung wasn't exactly seen as a top 3 rider in the world for any distance before 2020. He also had an off-day at worlds last year imo.

Considering we have his power file, he just couldn't even come close to hitting his power plan, went out at around 470w to the first check did ~430w the rest of the ride. If he'd hit his pacing plan he would have been ~WVA's time.
Campenaerts was in the form of his life in 2019, yet at no point before the crash was he faster than Evenepoel during the WCC and he crashed only in the 2nd half of the TT. He was trailing quite a bit by that time. Your assessment that Evenepoel seems to have gotten worse seems to be based solely on the Olympics TT. On a flat course like last years WCC he simply lacks the total watts compared to Van Aert and Ganna. The more likely explanation is that Ganna simply got better in 2020. Küngs ECC either needs to be seen in light of the WCC two weeks later, or what happened during the race, but we already discussed that. Evenepoel's lap times of this week's NC also shows that your assumption might be very much off, setting a faster lap every time, ending with the fastest lap of all after 35k. Personally i wouldn't call that a long TT, but considering you seem to find the 2021 ECC a long TT, then 35k should do. Also, the Algarve TT was 10k longer than the ECC and there he ridiculed Küng, but i guess the latter had an off-day then as well. It appears Küng and Roglic can have off-days but when Evenepoel doesn't perform top level it shows he has regressed. Sounds familiar.

With the new rules, not sure much will change, considering Van Aert was already simulating to be 190cm, and Ganna was already cheating with his elbow pads.
 
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Campenaerts was in the form of his life in 2019, yet at no point before the crash was he faster than Evenepoel during the WCC and he crashed only in the 2nd half of the TT. He was trailing quite a bit by that time. Your assessment that Evenepoel seems to have gotten worse seems to be based solely on the Olympics TT. On a flat course like last years WCC he simply lacks the total watts compared to Van Aert and Ganna. The more likely explanation is that Ganna simply got better in 2020. Küngs ECC either needs to be seen in light of the WCC two weeks later, or what happened during the race, but we already discussed that. Evenepoel's lap times of this week's NC also shows that your assumption might be very much off, setting a faster lap every time, ending with the fastest lap of all after 35k. Personally i wouldn't call that a long TT, but considering you seem to find the 2021 ECC a long TT, then 35k should do. Also, the Algarve TT was 10k longer than the ECC and there he ridiculed Küng, but i guess the latter had an off-day then as well. It appears Küng and Roglic can have off-days but when Evenepoel doesn't perform top level it shows he has regressed. Sounds familiar.

With the new rules, not sure much will change, considering Van Aert was already simulating to be 190cm, and Ganna was already cheating with his elbow pads.
I don't think Evenepoel actually gets worse and you seemed to have missed the point in a spectacular way. I meant, his margin between the shorter EC TT and longer WC TT got significantly larger compared to Ganna. Not as much as Kung, but still over double per KM. I'm not sure where you're getting that I mentioned the Olympics TT for Remco. You need to calm down man. Not everything is a personal attack on Remco.

Also, Ganna was already cheating with his elbow pads??? Jesus christ man how biased can you get? Remco has his pads a bit up his forearm as well. Pretty hilarious that you'd call tall riders just trying to level the playing field a bit in a blatantly unfair rule-set "cheating" when moving the pads up the elbow has losses from a stability and comfort perspective and Ganna still can't get his hands as high as Remco because he's not short and the UCI regs are idiotic.

It will make significant changes, many taller riders that already have flat back positions will be able to produce positions similar to Remco. He'll get worse relative to those guys. Sucks for him and the other short TT'ers who have been getting an unfair advantage for years, but *** happens. Still, he will have way more reach proportionally than 190cm+ riders.
 
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I thought he was gone but surprisingly his peleton made it back to the main group giving him the opportunity to jump to the leaders. He almost made the break to go solo at 4km from the finish. It was close.
Yes in the end it was close. If vanmarcke didn't close the gap, he might have won.
But this race did make clear he doesn't have multiple jumps. He made a strong jump out of the peleton, but his other 'jumps' after it became more and more telephoned? as they say. (Or everyone was so fast on his wheel it seemed like his jumps were not really explosive).
 
Yes in the end it was close. If vanmarcke didn't close the gap, he might have won.
But this race did make clear he doesn't have multiple jumps. He made a strong jump out of the peleton, but his other 'jumps' after it became more and more telephoned? as they say. (Or everyone was so fast on his wheel it seemed like his jumps were not really explosive).
It's not easy if everybody is watching you and expecting your attack so basically it's always telephoned. Still, they had to go all in just to get his wheel back. The race was also only 200 km. I think his jumps are more effective when the race is harder.
 
I don't think Evenepoel actually gets worse and you seemed to have missed the point in a spectacular way. I meant, his margin between the shorter EC TT and longer WC TT got significantly larger compared to Ganna. Not as much as Kung, but still over double per KM. I'm not sure where you're getting that I mentioned the Olympics TT for Remco. You need to calm down man. Not everything is a personal attack on Remco.

Also, Ganna was already cheating with his elbow pads??? Jesus christ man how biased can you get? Remco has his pads a bit up his forearm as well. Pretty hilarious that you'd call tall riders just trying to level the playing field a bit in a blatantly unfair rule-set "cheating" when moving the pads up the elbow has losses from a stability and comfort perspective and Ganna still can't get his hands as high as Remco because he's not short and the UCI regs are idiotic.

It will make significant changes, many taller riders that already have flat back positions will be able to produce positions similar to Remco. He'll get worse relative to those guys. Sucks for him and the other short TT'ers who have been getting an unfair advantage for years, but *** happens. Still, he will have way more reach proportionally than 190cm+ riders.
Maybe you should calm down. You may think they are dumb, and maybe they are, but they are the rules. The reason why he has his elbow pads halfway his forearms is because that way he can put the aerobars at a much more advantageous aerodynamic angle. They made the mistake to describe the height distance instead of the angle of the aerobars. That means the aerodynamic advantage for Ganna will be minimal compared to his current setup.

Reading your post, perhaps you're not the best placed to call others biased. And if i spectacularly missed your point, let me tell you your point wasn't clear.
 
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Maybe you should calm down. You may think they are dumb, and maybe they are, but they are the rules. The reason why he has his elbow pads halfway his forearms is because that way he can put the aerobars at a much more advantageous aerodynamic angle. They made the mistake to describe the height distance instead of the angle of the aerobars. That means the aerodynamic advantage for Ganna will be minimal compared to his current setup.

Reading your post, perhaps you're not the best placed to call others biased. And if i spectacularly missed your point, let me tell you your point wasn't clear.
The new rules do not prohibit putting the pads halfway up your elbows ? So I'm not sure why you'd reach the conclusion that the aerodynamic advantage will be minimal for riders such as Ganna because if a higher hands position than they have now (like Remco's position) is advantageous, they'll just continue doing it but have their extensions go 40mm higher.

Also, the rules are inherently dumb. It's not a maybe. Having rules that make the amount of stack you can have as a single number regardless of height is obviously extremely unfair for larger riders, because to produce the same position of a rider with shorter arms, they require much more.

The rules originally were there to stop riders from having a super high hands position, but like most things with the UCI they were implemented in a completely moronic way. Like they were fanboys of short riders. Realistically, they were too stupid to consider that a single limit for all riders is obviously unfair. If you look for prominent TT'ers currently, I'm sure you'll know who has the highest hand positions and it isn't the tall guys using single finger grips, or pads up their forearms.

Kung, Ganna, Wout, Asgreen, Dennis, Thomas etc. will all be able to make somewhat significant changes to their positions next year.
 
The new rules do not prohibit putting the pads halfway up your elbows ? So I'm not sure why you'd reach the conclusion that the aerodynamic advantage will be minimal for riders such as Ganna because if a higher hands position than they have now (like Remco's position) is advantageous, they'll just continue doing it but have their extensions go 40mm higher.

Also, the rules are inherently dumb. It's not a maybe. Having rules that make the amount of stack you can have as a single number regardless of height is obviously extremely unfair for larger riders, because to produce the same position of a rider with shorter arms, they require much more.

The rules originally were there to stop riders from having a super high hands position, but like most things with the UCI they were implemented in a completely moronic way. Like they were fanboys of short riders. Realistically, they were too stupid to consider that a single limit for all riders is obviously unfair. If you look for prominent TT'ers currently, I'm sure you'll know who has the highest hand positions and it isn't the tall guys using single finger grips, or pads up their forearms.

Kung, Ganna, Wout, Asgreen, Dennis, Thomas etc. will all be able to make somewhat significant changes to their positions next year.
Looks like you are a fanboy of tall riders then, as tall riders inherently have a lot more advantages compared to short riders. Short riders, even though they weigh a lot less, have the same limitations for their bike weight. Why? They weigh less, they can get a smaller frame, and yet while they could easily cut down on weight of the frame, their bike needs to be as heavy as the bike of a 80kg rider like Ganna. So if you want to start bitching about how the rules have been fundamentally unfair for tall riders, maybe you should think that through first. Why does a 50kg guy who could have a bike weigh much less while still being as safe, have to have a bike as heavy as a rider 30kg heavier? How is that fair? So if you want to ''scale'' things up/down in one department, why not in another? Who's to say if short riders were allowed to scale their bike down in other ways, they couldn't get a better aero machine? The discipline by definition favors tall riders, since they are capable of pushing bigger watts by definition to begin with. Good to see you aren't biased.

My point was that Ganna was already abusing the rules -dumb or not- to gain the aero advantage that he would now be able to attain more easily with the new rules. So the aero advantage for him will not be as big as it would have been had he followed the current rules strictly. At least, i assume they have updated the new rules to avoid such abuse further.
 
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What would hte problem be if TT positions are unrestricted?
I think unrestricted positions would imply unrestricted designs, gear, materials, wheels... What if some O'Bree wannebe wanted to have a certain position that needs an unconventional handle- or aerobar? What if someone wanted to be closer to the ground for aero reasons, using smaller (front)wheels, like Indurain? Unrestricted means anything goes. And if the position is unrestricted, then you'd have to allow any design to accommodate any position.
 
What would hte problem be if TT positions are unrestricted?
Safety. Same with the bike weight, and certain body positions on the bike - "super tuck", "superman", and bicycle geometry.

Imagine Ganna TTing on a futuristic Obree-style minimal carbon bike without top tube weighin 5kgs or something (I don't know what's the current top of the line standard for non-UCI legal bikes), and holding the handlebars with 50cm of spacers on top.

Maybe he can handle it, but someone will crash horribly doing that and break their neck.

I do think bike weight restrictions should be reviewed though. I think you can safely go under 6.8kg, probably significantly so, especially for smaller frames.

eta: although, if I got to be dictator of the UCI for a day, I would force everyone to ride steel bikes exclusively.
 
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