Teams & Riders The Remco Evenepoel is the next Eddy Merckx thread

[IndianCyclist]

Who is the cheapest available super dom that Pat will take on for Remco in 2024?

 

[Bolder]

Never thrown in situations where he won't succeed? You mean like putting him vs Pogacar and Vingegaard in Tirreno while weighing 67kg?

They have screwed the pooch on numerous occasions. They never took his lack of experience seriously, which inevitably led to him crashing hard sooner or later combined with his eagerness to perform. They did not supervise his injury close enough, letting a young, eager and inexperienced rider to set the pace of his own recovery, which led to his injury getting worse, his recovery taking longer and an entire year being wasted. They constantly set him up with a tactical nitwit. The plan in LBL had not changed after Pogacar crashed out. So the plan all along had been to attack on La Redoute and solo it home. Would have loved to see that happening with Pogacar there. I could go into a race per race screw up if you'd like too.

I'm sure you could🙂, but I think you are overreacting. Regarding LBL, there are a million what ifs, but hey, he won, right? Even if Pog could go with him, that's a 50 percent chance of winning...I'd back that strategy against the most versatile and successful rider in the peloton. Bottom line at QS: despite setbacks and living inside the Belgian cycling fish tank, Remco has more than hit his development targets, to say the least. And even experienced riders can have catastrophic crashes.

 

[The fridge in the blue trees]

Funny how every failure seems to be the teams fault... And I still don't think sending him to the Giro in 21 was a mistake. His form was pretty good, he lacked the basis, but he got to experience of a GT, even if he then crashed out towards the end. But that experience certainly didn't hurt him in the Vuelta 22. And no, his 21 season after that wasn't as horrible as somehow it's made out to be now. He went on to win Belgium, Denmark, pull Colbrelli to the EC win, win Brussels, Bernocchi... nah, riding the Giro didn't hurt him. Only hurt the ego of his fans who had unrealistic expectations of him winning his first GT, riding his first race in 8 months or so. His form was good, he felt well and optimistic, put him in there and see what happens. He rode well, showed that he could be a GT rider in the future, had to take a day off on the Cortina stage, that was endurance missing after the time off, that was experience missing, his first GT. Would he have done better riding the Vuelta that year? Better result yes, winning, highly doubt it, it still would have been his first GT, he very likely would have run into similar, but less severe problems in the third week.

As for the team, with Van Wilder and Vansevenant they have at least 2 very decent riders, that can become better, not sure why Mauri seems to be completely dismissed here, he's had 2 decent seasons. Masnada in theory too, but he seems not to have recovered from whatever he had last year. Cattaneo after his excellent 2021 fallen of a cliff too. Knox on the other hand getting better again. Bagioli looks more like a future Ulissi than a real climber, but Ulissi as a helper is decent enough. Schmid the same, he can develop into a sort of Castroviejo/Amador/Kiryienka kind of rider. Hirt was a strange addition from the start, had a career season last year, sort of unlikely he can repeat that. They miss the top helper(s), yes, but the 2 Belgians surely can develop into that. 2 years ago I thought Van Wilder might fight for a podium in a GT around now, so far he's not developed well enough, but has had his career set back by DSM and crashes as well, so let's wait. Something like Schmid as early tempo rider in the mountains (if necessary), Bagioli next, Van Wilder and Mauri last, add Masnada/Cattaneo/Knox/Hirt if one of them shows signs of high quality, add Alaphilippe with freedom instead if it's the tour, plus 2 guys for the flat part, with Ilan and Mauri expected to improve, that's a pretty decent team. And for the Tour not more is needed anyway, since Jumbo/UAE can be expected to ride.

Ineos? Not completely sure it even makes sense from their point of view. They already have x riders that want to be GT leaders, Bernal, Martinez, Rodriguez, Tao, Arensman, Thomas maybe another year, Pidcock at some point. Add Plapp (don't really see that to be honest) and Tulett... Add Remco and some of these are out faster than Remco can say "hi". Especially guys like Rodriguez and Arensman, that looks set to be leaders in a GC very soon. Remco there? And he rightly would demand to be the number 1, not sure that works out well for the team strength in general. Yes, De Plus, Sivakov, Plapp, Tulett, Thomas stay, but Sivakov crashes out anyway, but riders like Rodriguez, Arensman, Tao would either demand to be leader in their own GT, or then leave. The Colombians depends a bit on how Bernal recovers and if Martinez ever comes out of his slump. Right now with Arensman and Rodriguez Ineos has 2 riders that can hope to reach the level necessary to compete vs Vingegaard/Pogacar/(Remco) at some point in the TdF, no guarantee they will, but they surely have to think they can, and the way they have to be riding Ineos has to have some trust in them too. Add Remco and.... Not sure they want to change the whole team without first knowing that their young guys won't challenge for the TdF.

UAE at some point will face the same problem with Pogacar-Ayuso-Almeida... especially Ayuso.

Remco staying put makes sense for both Remco, Lefevre and IMO in the end Ineos at this point. Revisit this in a year after the TdF if Arensman-Rodriguez aren't progressing, if Bernal never recovers from his injuries, if Tao has another off year (or doesn't recover well from the injury), and if Soudal Quick doesn't improve, meaning Van Wilder and Mauri getting better or another high quality climber joining the team.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Not sure why that´s so funny, i think it´s quite accurate, They have plenty of guys for medium mountains. Who exactly was better at Jumbo besides Kuss? Dennis, Oomen, Hessmann? Surely not. Oh, this was Jumbo's C team? Then please tell me who they have in their A team. You think Benoot, Kruijswijk, Foss... are climbing better than Van Wilder and Hirt?
Jumbo have Kelderman and Kuss as top level mountain doms that are a level above. And they have Van Aert. If you ad one top level mountain domestique to Hirt and Van Wilder, and you put guys like Asgreen, Schmid... in the GT squad, you get a very competent team. Not Ineos or Jumbo A-team level, but good enough to get Evenepoel where he needs to be. Who were Pogacar's domestiques in 2020 and 2021? Formolo, Majka, McNulty...

Jumbo's C-team + Kuss was better than SQS.

Ineos had 3 guys much better than Van Wilder, and that's after their strongest leader crashed out.

Their strongest leader? Ok, based on...?

Ineos came with 5 guys that all could be leader in another race at another team. Yet none of them would've been strong enough to beat a fit/healthy Evenepoel and not even strong enough to beat a weak Roglic. Acting like they were all domestiques from the start is disingenuous. They threw whatever they had at the wall and hoped something would stick. Exactly because they do not have a super leader anymore. Other than De Plus in stage 19, i haven't seen many of them act as a domestique either. And while maybe 4 out of those 5 were stronger than Van Wilder, doesn't mean all that much. First of all, they weren't that much stronger looking at the last week, and second of all, both Arensman and De Plus (and i bet Sivakov would have as well, at best) got dropped nearly simultaneously. As soon as it was the top dogs duking it out, all those Ineos domestiques got dropped just the same. The only 2 domestiques in the Giro that actually made an impact as soon as it was mano a mano, were Vine and Kuss.

Van Wilder will continue to improve, they already have Hirt and adding one top level mountain dom makes a lot more sense than 2 or 3 cheaper riders. Guys for the flat and hilly stages, they have plenty. Say they managed to sign Vine or Kuss, and you had a team of Vine, Hirt, Van Wilder, Vervaeke, Schmid, Asgreen, Declerq, do you think that would be a laughable GT team? I don't. Then they have back-up options with Vansevenant, Lampaert, Serry, Cavagna... And if their Italians ever get in decent shape again, who knows even Cattaneo, Masnada and Bagioli. If Kuss crashed out, who 'd Roglic have left in a group of 15 guys? Nobody.

 

[Bonimenier]

Even if Pog could go with him, that's a 50 percent chance of winning...

You can either win or not win. There's always a 50% chance.

 

[Berniece]

Who is the cheapest available super dom that Pat will take on for Remco in 2024?

Cheapest not sure, but De Plus is end of contract this year.

 

[Extinction]

I'm back, banned for the usual nonesense, but you missed my words of wisdom, now didn't you? So l've quite enjoyed Patrick's racing "in Colombia" about stray dogs, but don't approve of Remco exiting stage left without any comunication to the race organization whatsoever. There are ways and there are ways. Having said that, Soudal looked pathetic on the only mountain stage before his abandon. No support, not good. Evenepoel can't go forward like this, but with Patrick's budget how are things to improve?

 

[Valv.Piti]

Team strength is heavily overrated IMO, but you definitely need one guy to do some stuff in the mountains and thats Van Wilder. Roulers are no problem, they are interchangeable and QS is doing well in that department anyways.

It comes down to Remco v Pogacar v Vingegaard. Who avoids the crashes, whats the route like, whats the weather etc.

 

[Red Rick]

Who is the cheapest available super dom that Pat will take on for Remco in 2024?

• Cheap
• Super

You can pick one of the 2. Or neither. But never both

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Team strength is heavily overrated IMO, but you definitely need one guy to do some stuff in the mountains and thats Van Wilder. Roulers are no problem, they are interchangeable and QS is doing well in that department anyways.

It comes down to Remco v Pogacar v Vingegaard. Who avoids the crashes, whats the route like, whats the weather etc.

The problem with Van Wilder currently is that he is also a diesel climber who needs to climb at his own pace early and then he can finish quite close to the top level climbers. Unfortunately, when guys like Roglic, Evenepoel, Pogacar... want to make a move, they need a guy that can set a hard pace early. If you use Van Wilder that way, you slash his efficiency. Van Wilder would be a great mountain domestique for when Evenepoel is suffering a crisis and gets dropped. In that case Van Wilder could pace him and keep him in contention. But when Evenepoel wants to prepare an attack 3k from the finish... chances are Van Wilder is no longer there (he could be dropped and riding 50 meters behind the group of favorites, to finish only 20 seconds later). As it stands, Van Wilder is not (yet?) that guy.

 

[Bonimenier]

• Cheap
• Super

You can pick one of the 2. Or neither. But never both

He only used one of the two.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Cheapest not sure, but De Plus is end of contract this year.

I think his price might have received a little bump after the Giro.

 

[Rackham]

That's why it may make sense to a cash-driven Patrick to hold up Ineos and hold Remco out of any competition that's significant until he knows what he could be paid. Trying to build a Tour team will continue to cost him and, as you've said: it's a business. Everyone is for sale.

Pat Lefevere will take a leaf out of the Glazer's playbook & ask Jim Ratcliffe for... 6 billion euros for Evenepoel.

"show me the money!" "show me the money!"

But seriously a transfer in & of itself is a can of worms in cycling & not something that usually ever happens. So I still don't expect it to happen here.

 

[Mayomaniac]

• Cheap
• Super

You can pick one of the 2. Or neither. But never both

Lefevre has left the chat (and went straight to the bar).
I would love to see his meltdown if the rumours were true.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Pat Lefevere will take a leaf out of the Glazer's playbook & ask Jim Ratcliffe for... 6 billion euros for Evenepoel.

"show me the money!" "show me the money!"

But seriously a transfer in & of itself is a can of worms in cycling & not something that usually ever happens. So I still don't expect it to happen here.

The old man won't let his golden boy (and unofficially grandson) leave.

 

[Red Rick]

Lefevre has left the chat (and went straight to the bar).
I would love to see his meltdown if the rumours were true.

Please tell me there's a 25 M buy out clause so cycling can have their own Neymar saga

 

[Mayomaniac]

The old man won't let his golden boy (and unofficially grandson) leave.

Don't forget that he's also his cashcow who pretty much got the new sponsor to support them.

 

[Riek s]

IsJulian going away? Because while expensive, he should do the trick very well for the final climb. He is riding the tour anyway since it is easiest to plan in the season so using him for the mountains in case Remco is in need. (otherwise free reign to get his money worth..)

 

[Extinction]

Belgium doesn't have the resources to build a GT champion.

 

[Salvarani]

IsJulian going away? Because while expensive, he should do the trick very well for the final climb. He is riding the tour anyway since it is easiest to plan in the season so using him for the mountains in case Remco is in need. (otherwise free reign to get his money worth..)

Ala wont work well in that role. Nor do I think he is "happy" to do it.

If Ala declines so much that he is helping out in the biggest race of the season... all panache is gone. He should retire immediately.

Helping out at a race where is just riding for preparation or have no chance of winning, because he has had a bad preparation, is another thing. Poor shape/form because of sickness, crashes and injuries. Thats fine.

However, it would be really sad to see him pacing Remco up a mountain or be dropped from a 25-man group after doing some domestic work. Especially at the Tour, where he should be going for stages and maybe the mountains jersey. Ala has been one of the best riders in the peloton, in the past 8 seasons or so. Rather he retires than fade out that way. He should still be able make a "comeback" or have a couple decent/good seasons left in him with some nice results.

 

[Andre]

Who is the cheapest available super dom that Pat will take on for Remco in 2024?

...good question; I would ask Logic. I don't know whose contracts are up.

 

[Andre]

I'm back, banned for the usual nonesense, but you missed my words of wisdom, now didn't you? So l've quite enjoyed Patrick's racing "in Colombia" about stray dogs, but don't approve of Remco exiting stage left without any comunication to the race organization whatsoever. There are ways and there are ways. Having said that, Soudal looked pathetic on the only mountain stage before his abandon. No support, not good. Evenepoel can't go forward like this, but with Patrick's budget how are things to improve?

welcome back Extinction

 

[Andre]

Belgium doesn't have the resources to build a GT champion.

La Vuelta is a GT

 

[Andre]

Ala wont work well in that role. Nor do I think he is "happy" to do it.

If Ala declines so much that he is helping out in the biggest race of the season... all panache is gone. He should retire immediately.

Helping out at a race where is just riding for preparation or have no chance of winning, because he has had a bad preparation, is another thing. Poor shape/form because of sickness, crashes and injuries. Thats fine.

However, it would be really sad to see him pacing Remco up a mountain or be dropped from a 25-man group after doing some domestic work. Especially at the Tour, where he should be going for stages and maybe the mountains jersey. Ala has been one of the best riders in the peloton, in the past 8 seasons or so. Rather he retires than fade out that way. He should still be able make a "comeback" or have a couple decent/good seasons left in him with some nice results.

I'm not sure and I may be wrong (I often am), but I think Julian is on a fast decline.

 

[saunaking]

So, remco doesn't want to go to the Tour?

Correct. Unless he's keeping it under the radar and just shows up on the start list soon