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The Unipublic way

Seeing as how I'm constantly being told about unhappiness or sour grapes when I say this Vuelta is terrible, I figured I would start a thread to discuss the issues in depth.

The Vuelta has this philosophy where they want it to be as close a race as possible until the very end. To that end, they design stages that can't create gaps. This usually translates into a short, flat stage with a single MTF, only one ITT, and a hilly one at that to make sure it suited all contenders.

The result is that we get about 5 minutes of racing per stage.

Some say that's more than what we got at the Giro or the Tour. I disagree, but for the sake of the argument, I'll say I agree. However, that's irrelevant. Both the Giro and the Tour were designed to make things happen. The Tour in particular was a risky attempt to try to get a more aggressive style of racing back, by forcing the climbers to attack. The parcours was IMO pretty good, and with Contador and Andy there it would probably have been a great race. The Giro parcours wasn't perfect by all means, what with the hardest stages being together at the end of the race and offering very little before that, but even then there was terrain to try something.

Not in the Vuelta. With the Unipublic way, there's no room for tactical moves. What De Gendt did might be relatively rare, but it does happen every now and then, and Unipublic just disallows the possibility. They just want close uphill sprints because they think that's what the general public wants to see. They design courses that blatantly favour the punchy climber specialists (many of whom would never have been GT contenders in previous decades) because that's what the best Spanish riders are, and they're pandering to the general public.

Is pandering to the general public bad, you'll ask? Not per se. But when it involves cheapening what's supposed to be a GT like this, the answer should be different.

We get a gazillion MTFs, most of the time with no previous climbs, with super short stages, and only one hilly ITT, to make it as little selective as possible. That's the most unbalanced and ridiculous parcours I can think of.

I'd have no issues with the stages we've already seen if what's coming next wasn't, for the most part, more of the same. Yes, we get 5-20 minutes of action or whatever, and yes, the action we do get is good, but by celebrating it, you're celebrating the Unipublic way, which runs contrary to what cycling is supposed to be (you know, the epicness and all that? Extreme endurance tests?). You're validating the current Vuelta organizers and making it less likely that we'll see a change. The Tour parcours backfired, but it was a much needed attempt to get a more aggressive style of racing back. At least they tried. The Vuelta is actively campaigning for YouTube cycling.

"Oh you nostalgic git!", you'll say. Sorry, but I'm not talking about some mythical time in the 70s or 80s. I'm talking about recent Giros and even Tours, not to mention other races (Suisse last year? Colorado? Too many to mention).

So this is why you won't hear me talk about how awesome this Vuelta is.
 
Jun 28, 2012
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hrotha-How about designing a Vuelta yourself...I'll be looking for it in the Race Design thread...(I don't know the roads of Spain very well, so I can't really help you there).

One thing I will give the Vuelta credit for: They are always at least looking for new challenges to the end of the stage. Granted, I think the Giro under Angelo Zomegnan was the best of the three grand tours in terms of trying to spice things up throughout the 3,500km race, but Unipublic is at least making the ends of the stages great, although I would like to see an ability for more action in the middle of the stages. The Tour de France keeps using, it seems, the same old, tired climbs, with very few exceptions (Belle Fille in this year's race, for example).

Anybody know of any climbs in Spain that have both a road up and a road down, ie. that can be used midstage? I can think of Sierra Nevada off the top of my head, but that's about it...admittedly, I don't know the Spanish topography and road network all that well.
 
Both routes (TDF and Vuelta) are anomalies this year: TDF for having 2,5 proper mountain stages per 100km of ITT, Vuelta for having 9 MTF/Uphill finishes per 40km of ITT. Racing is better in Vuelta because it gives more opportunities for favorites to show themselves. 5 - 6 multiple climb GC stages and two ITT (one flat, one with 2nd/3rd cat. climb) is the best formula for GT.
 
SetonHallPirate said:
hrotha-How about designing a Vuelta yourself...I'll be looking for it in the Race Design thread...
Designing a Vuelta course is not my job. What kind of argument is this anyway?
Both routes (TDF and Vuelta) are anomalies this year: TDF for having 2,5 proper mountain stages per 100km of ITT, Vuelta for having 9 MTF/Uphill finishes per 40km of ITT. Racing is better in Vuelta because it gives more opportunities for favorites to show themselves. 5 - 6 multiple climb GC stages and two ITT (one flat, one with 2nd/3rd cat. climb) is the best formula for GT.
This Vuelta route is not an anomaly. It might be the Unipublic doctrine taken to an extreme, but the philosophy has been the same for years.
 
GT's

first in my opinion all 3 grand tours are great........to me they all have there own character ........the last thing cycling fans should want is for them all to be too similar

secondly as much as race planners manipulate parcours to maximise chances of exciting racing the riders themselves decide just how they are going to ride.............how often a really hard a course is negated by cautious riders

having many uphill finished seems a good idea to me

and this years vuelta is better for having less time trialling

just as the first week of the tdf often has zero effect on final gc this years vuelta is only just warming up...........the final week will see big time differences

anyone else notice how much safer the first week of this vuelta was compared with a crazy first week in the last tdf?
 
Sep 21, 2009
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hrotha said:
Designing a Vuelta course is not my job. What kind of argument is this anyway?

This Vuelta route is not an anomaly. It might be the Unipublic doctrine taken to an extreme, but the philosophy has been the same for years.

Hello, Vuelta 2009 calls to your door ;)
 
pretty much agree with all you said.
I disagree about the TDF, this year's route has been a fail. Even if we reckon Proudhomme actually tried what you say (imho he just did a Wiggins-friendly route, that's all), the design was very poor.
We can discuss whether is more fun to have a flat or uphill sprint, but filling a stage race with 10 uphil sprints IS NOT AN EXCUSE to wipe out all the true mountain stages.
The only non-MTF HC of this Vuelta is San Lorenzo (I didn't check so I may be wrong)... this is just ridicoulus.

One last thing. If last 10 years taught us anything, it's that tactical moves are likely to succeed only when the stages are long. The average lenght of Vuelta's stages is even more ridicoulus.
You can fill a 100 kms long stage with mountains and you'll just end up diappointed (see Modane-Alpe D'Huez for reference).
 
SetonHallPirate said:
hrotha-How about designing a Vuelta yourself...I'll be looking for it in the Race Design thread...(I don't know the roads of Spain very well, so I can't really help you there).

I am, and it made me sympathize a bit more with Unipublic. The Spanish Pyrenees are not really suited to bike racing: very little roads, and most roads stay in the valleys, so no chance for consecutive climbs. Still have to go to Asturias though.

On the whole though, I agree with hrotha. The route this year is unimaginative. Sure, a bit of spectacle is guaranteed nearly each day, but we will always get exactly that: a bit of spectacle, never anything more. Even early breaks have no chance until now, because the stage is easy until the last part, so every team can sacrifice 5 riders that will be useless in the final climb, but perfectly rested before that. No surprise, no suspense.
 
Arnout said:
I am, and it made me sympathize a bit more with Unipublic. The Spanish Pyrenees are not really suited to bike racing: very little roads, and most roads stay in the valleys, so no chance for consecutive climbs. Still have to go to Asturias though.
aaah the old dear legend there-are-no-climbs-in-Spain...
What if I tell you there are?
I know a few spanish guys who would go mad against you. :D
 
Oct 29, 2009
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A lot of people criticize them but I rather enjoy the shorter stages with a mountain top finish at the end. In reality it rarely matters what you put in front of the last climb todays GC contender is nearly always too conservative to risk anything before it regardless so why bother?

This way you get the teams appoaching the bottom of the climb with almost a full complement of riders and we get a super fast sprint style leadout into the climb and on the lower slopes which is cool to watch. Seeing guys like Jens, or CAS killing themsleves on the front for a couple of km while the GC guys wait for them to drop one by one is exciting.

Plus the GC men are much fresher and more willing to try an attack. If they've already been over several cat 1/HC climbs chances are they'll be in a world of pain already and wanting to play it safe in case they blow up.

Just my opinion of course, but often the ''epic'' stages are a big dissapointment. Even the Stelvio stage wasnt good. Yeah De Gent attacked prior to it and rode the climb solo, but what happened behind? We had km after km of steady tempo riding because everyones legs were ****ed... boring.
 
The Cobra said:
This way you get the teams appoaching the bottom of the climb with almost a full complement of riders and we get a super fast sprint style leadout into the climb and on the lower slopes which is cool to watch. Seeing guys like Jens, or CAS killing themsleves on the front for a couple of km while the GC guys wait for them to drop one by one is exciting.
:eek::eek:
That's exactly what I hate, man. This is the definition of a sprint.
The Cobra said:
Just my opinion of course, but often the ''epic'' stages are a big dissapointment.
Name your favourite stages all time then. How many of them had a similar route to these?
 
Eshnar said:
aaah the old dear legend there-are-no-climbs-in-Spain...
What if I tell you there are?
I know a few spanish guys who would go mad against you. :D

Firstly, I agree with the route criticism. Secondly, I'm mainly talking about the Pyrenees. There are lots of climbs there, but it's hard to make a descent - immediate ascent next climb combination. I've yet to design stages in Asturias, Sierra Nevada etc, but I'm sure there are more options there.
 
Sep 21, 2009
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Eshnar said:
aaah the old dear legend there-are-no-climbs-in-Spain...
What if I tell you there are?
I know a few spanish guys who would go mad against you. :D

And the question is... is there anyone willing to pay for a stage there? To put an example, the hardest climbs south of the Pyrenees are in Catalunya. But in recent years, only Barcelona and a few other beach towns have been interested in hosting a Vuelta stage in that region. Yes, I know, Andorra. The last stages hosted in Andorra have been at the beginning of the second week of the race. Do you expect any GT to have a heavy mountain stage that early in the race? Do you expect Unipublic to host their usual 3 mountain stages in the weekend that closes the 2nd week in the Pyrenees if only Andorra is willing to pay?

There are many things in the Unipublic way that I don't like. But the ideas of those Spanish guys who go mad at anyone have to be taken very cautiously. They complained a lot because it took years for Unipublic to go to Ancares, but they don't give credit for announcing the stage finish in Cuitu Negru just a few months after receiving a dossier from the guy who measured the climb before the road was paved. In fact, the works to pave it were finished last week! What do these guys do? They complain because of the flat between Cobertoria and Pajares when there isn't any better option.
 
Arnout said:
Firstly, I agree with the route criticism. Secondly, I'm mainly talking about the Pyrenees. There are lots of climbs there, but it's hard to make a descent - immediate ascent next climb combination. I've yet to design stages in Asturias, Sierra Nevada etc, but I'm sure there are more options there.
indeed... And Unipublic generally avoid Pyrenees (but Andorra) anyway, so what's the problem?
And the very same stage to Andorra had far better options than the one they chose.
 
Jun 28, 2012
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hrotha said:
Designing a Vuelta course is not my job. What kind of argument is this anyway?

This Vuelta route is not an anomaly. It might be the Unipublic doctrine taken to an extreme, but the philosophy has been the same for years.
You're criticizing, but not making any constructive points. It's not an argument, it's a request to turn your criticism and make it constructive.
 
icefire said:
There are many things in the Unipublic way that I don't like. But the ideas of those Spanish guys who go mad at anyone have to be taken very cautiously. They complained a lot because it took years for Unipublic to go to Ancares, but they don't give credit for announcing the stage finish in Cuitu Negru just a few months after receiving a dossier from the guy who measured the climb before the road was paved. In fact, the works to pave it were finished last week! What do these guys do? They complain because of the flat between Cobertoria and Pajares when there isn't any better option.
Ofc they are a bit extreme in that sense :D
anyway if a town is willing to pay, there's no need for the organisers to scientifically avoid any intermediate climb. For example, Eibar proposed to Unipublic to climb Arrate twice. That was something better than they did. But, guess what, Unipublic declined. They do have options. It's their choice
 
I couldn't agree more with the OP, of course.

There are so many points I'd like to make and so many messages to respond to... in short, it is NOT true that there aren't any good mountain passes in Spain and it is NOT true that lack of financing turns the Unipublic way into the only possible way.

And before someone accuses me of criticising without making any constructive suggestions, I'll go fetch a Vuelta I designed a while ago and post it on the race design thread.
 
Sep 21, 2009
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Eshnar said:
Ofc they are a bit extreme in that sense :D
anyway if a town is willing to pay, there's no need for the organisers to scientifically avoid any intermediate climb. For example, Eibar proposed to Unipublic to climb Arrate twice. That was something better than they did. But, guess what, Unipublic declined. They do have options. It's their choice

You're right with that idea of scientifically avoiding intermediate climbs. But having Arrate x 2 on the third stage would have been a bit too much IMHO.
 
Jun 28, 2012
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Descender said:
I couldn't agree more with the OP, of course.

There are so many points I'd like to make and so many messages to respond to... in short, it is NOT true that there aren't any good mountain passes in Spain and it is NOT true that lack of financing turns the Unipublic way into the only possible way.

And before someone accuses me of criticising without making any constructive suggestions, I'll go fetch a Vuelta I designed a while ago and post it on the race design thread.
And I'll refrain from making that accusation towards you!
 
icefire said:
You're right with that idea of scientifically avoiding intermediate climbs. But having Arrate x 2 on the third stage would have been a bit too much IMHO.
That's what Unipublic thought.
And I ask: why? Do you really think having Arrate twice would close the GC?
 
Sep 21, 2009
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Descender said:
I couldn't agree more with the OP, of course.

There are so many points I'd like to make and so many messages to respond to... in short, it is NOT true that there aren't any good mountain passes in Spain and it is NOT true that lack of financing turns the Unipublic way into the only possible way.

And before someone accuses me of criticising without making any constructive suggestions, I'll go fetch a Vuelta I designed a while ago and post it on the race design thread.

I am skeptic. True, the race design can be improved even within the money and space constraints of the organizer. But comparing Pau-Luchon 1983 to Pau-Luchon 2012 just proves that the racing is getting worse no matter the course design. There must be some other variables to play with. Ban power meters and heart rate monitors. I would also ban race radios, but I read from Team Sky that they don't work when you need them ;)
 
Oct 29, 2009
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Eshnar said:
:eek::eek:
That's exactly what I hate, man. This is the definition of a sprint.

Name your favourite stages all time then. How many of them had a similar route to these?

Lol :D

2009 Tour - Verbier was pretty epic no? Smash into the climb at full speed, then when everyones on their limit Contador fliew away. Fast paced, exciting, constantly changing dynamic of the race. Much much superior to 20kn grind up the Stelvio. Some of the short Cat 3 finishing climbs we are seeing in the Vuelta can get a bit old because they're too short but any decent Cat 1 climb and we'll get a load of action.

Just look at the last mountain stage in the Vuelta where Piti won, how many attacks were there, **** loads and we had no idea who was going to win right till the end. Thats what I want to watch.
 
I have to say that I agree with you. The point is that this Vuelta is more entertaining so far then the TdF.. imo!
I also agree that if Contador and Schleck would've ridden the TdF it would've been a very open and more challenging race. Allthough the TdF mountain stages should've been a bit harder to compensate for the TT's.

Good post. I was talking about sour grapes in the stage thread when I replied to one of you whine about Unipublic posts, but your posts in there weren't very constructive.

Also the multiple climb stages are made in a way that it's hard to attack before the last climb which isn't good at all.
I don't mind stages with just 1 climb at the end, but there have to be alternatives stages as well. This Vuelta is too much of the same, allthough I do think it has been entertaining so far it will never be epic or legendary.
 

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